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Author Topic: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?  (Read 4554 times)

Brakiel

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How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« on: 02 October 2022, 12:57:49 »
Was pondering the ultimate utility of zombie mech design while noodling around in MegaMek. How often do your standard fusion engine mechs lose both side torsos yet still remain mobile and possibly combat capable? While I don't have any hard numbers, thinking back, I'm hard pressed to name a lot of non-trivial times where my mech isn't put down from something else before that happens. (By "non-trivial" I mean something more substantial than a Locust getting hit in both side torsos with Gauss Rifles. It's not hard to lose torsos in situations like that.) Do you see, say, torsoless Crabs, Awesomes, and the like in your games?

Hellraiser

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #1 on: 02 October 2022, 13:03:35 »
Just yesterday I spent 3 hours hammering a WarHammer-6D over most every other target on the battlefield.

Cyclops-10 (AC20)
"Grand"Dragon-1G
Quickdraw-4? (Original)
Panther-9R

End of the game was turn 11/12? & it was still there.
It would NOT die.
Admittedly my shots were not great most of the time & the Cyclops died fairly early but the damn thing was on the ground w/ unconscious pilot & I still had not cored it.
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Daryk

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #2 on: 02 October 2022, 13:06:21 »
Often enough that they're totally worth it.  The last time I remember was an Orion that was reduced to a pair of legs and a Medium Laser.  It made sufficient nuisance of itself to be thoroughly destroyed 3-4 turns later (the intervening damage being insufficient to do so).

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #3 on: 02 October 2022, 14:26:26 »
Standard Orion-1K?
With 5 tons of ammo, I'm shocked it didn't blow at some point.
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Daryk

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #4 on: 02 October 2022, 14:30:26 »
It did, but there was hardly any ammo left...  8)

Colt Ward

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #5 on: 02 October 2022, 15:13:00 »
You are overlooking the ultimate zombie . . .

Stooping Hawk C . . . if you have not run that, do so and let the hate flow.  A 5/8/5 55t standard fusion Clan Omni where a cERLL is in the CT and in the Head with 2 ERML elsehwere- a flashbulb.  Yes, you read that correctly, blow off the arms and side torsos and all you do is heat limit it's shots (10 DHS in the engine) and remove the TC in a side torso assisting the shots.  A few people I play with in person know the mech by it's ability rather than it's name.

Having a Stooping Hawk C still pressing forward to the objective missing both arms and a side torso with the other side torso open can un-nerve some people.

The next most zombie is brought to you by the same people (for the same reasons) which is the Blood Kite . . . standard fusion engine, ERLL in the head and CT . . . though it DOES have ammo, the 3/5/3 mech is designed for fire support.  The ammo is for LRMs and some SRMs when people get close.
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Paul

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #6 on: 02 October 2022, 15:47:58 »
One of the most common errors of players is to not dedicate enough firepower to ensure a kill. They see the armor gone in a location, and if a theoretical pair of PPCs can drop it if it hits that spot again, that's all they assign.
They're drastically underestimating the likelihood of that damage ending up elsewhere.

This results in units have *far* more turns of utility than they should. The only thing worse than overkill, is underkill. Drop those suckers.

Now once you become good at killing the things that should be 100% dead, you need to get good at ignoring the things that have become irrelevant. An Orion with 1 Medium laser left is worth 0 of your firepower. It's an initiative sink. You give that little guy the spare LRM launcher as a secondary shot, provided it doesn't cause heat issues. But your main firepower better go to something that still has firepower.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Hellraiser

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #7 on: 02 October 2022, 16:17:41 »
One of the most common errors of players is to not dedicate enough firepower to ensure a kill. They see the armor gone in a location, and if a theoretical pair of PPCs can drop it if it hits that spot again, that's all they assign.
They're drastically underestimating the likelihood of that damage ending up elsewhere. 

Agreed usually, but, this was sooo not the case in yesterday's game.

My 5th mech I left off the list above because it never got to make a physical attack and only had 1 round of fire before it was gone was the Jenner-7D.

I'll admit, with back shots all over & a melee of mechs around the above mentioned Whammer, I did not see the Whammer, Rifleman, & Dervish all throwing maxed firepower at the Jenner to KILL IT KILL IT BEFORE IT EATS THE RIFLEMAN FROM BEHIND.

It was kind of impressive really, I've never seen 1 light mech draw that much firepower from 185 tons of enemy force.
The Whammer was taking an AC20 & ML Battery in the back from Cyclops/Quickdraw all while focusing 2 PPCs at 18 hexes into the Jenner on top of a hill that I thought was out of range.
Dervish did the same as it moved from 24 hexes to 19 & also lit it up w/ LRMs
The Rifleman on the other hand alpha'd at point blank knowing that if it didn't die that turn the rest of the game it would be bouncing around cutting things open from behind.
I guess 15 overheat doesn't seem so bad when the next turn nothing is in range to shoot you, as long as the Jenner dies.
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Daryk

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #8 on: 02 October 2022, 16:41:13 »
The Orion in question was ignored right up until the Panther pilot zigged when he should have zagged and the Orion kicked it into oblivion.  The next turn, the Orion was ENDED.

Church14

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #9 on: 02 October 2022, 16:48:56 »
We play with forced withdrawal, so zombies aren’t quite as obnoxious, but a heavily armored, sensibly crit padded design can still eat a lot of damage before withdrawing

pokefan548

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #10 on: 02 October 2022, 17:10:59 »
Also, even with Clan XL/IS Light, there's plenty of utility to being able to lose one side torso and still being able to fight with the other side torso and arm without being saddled by engine crits.

Anyways, I've had Awesomes and Osteons draw fire for several turns at a time, not quite retaining enough speed and firepower to really have good odds at winning the engagement but staying alive and being just enough of a threat to not be ignored even after being savaged time and time again. A while back, I had a Society Trey vs. a Clan Star, and with the Osteon able to zone out and/or distract roughly three Clan 'Mechs for most of the match, finally dying in one final gambit to bait an Ice Ferret into overextending after my Septicemias had knocked out the other two Clan 'Mechs (a Timby and something else I forget, maybe a Dire Wolf? Basically, the two best anchors for the Clan force, leaving only skirmishers and scouts remaining). Despite its destruction, that Osteon really won the day for me just be soaking damage turn after turn, keeping the enemy's attention away from my much flimsier Septicemias, and did a respectable job of making sure its assailants weren't getting away with it unscathed.
« Last Edit: 02 October 2022, 17:12:55 by pokefan548 »
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Failure16

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #11 on: 02 October 2022, 18:40:31 »
I would say that zombie-'Mechs zombie more often than not. For purposes of this discussion, we have to discount headshots or TACs--however memorable as an individual circumstance--because they can happen to any design and would skew the results.

My experience with 'Mechs that might not seem like zombies is similar to Daryk's: I once had a SHD-2H Shadow Hawk survive a whole game getting beat on, up to an including a three-level fall off a cliff, to the point that it crawled off the board with a center torso, leg, and head. With three tonnes of ammo--and long bins too, for everything but the AC--it was a miracle it did not explode. But it didn't.

That was a zombie-'Mech moment for me if there ever was one.

It is rather less memorable to see an AWS-8Q, MAD-3D, FLS, or OTL survive turn after turn of fire with relatively ill-effects. If they do not, it becomes memorable.
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Daryk

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #12 on: 02 October 2022, 18:46:11 »
I had a modern Fire Javelin (11F?) take an LRM carrier to the face and run away for the rest of the game with NO internal damage.

House Davie Merc

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #13 on: 02 October 2022, 20:00:25 »
It may not fit the exact definition of " Zombie" mech  , but the original
GHR-5H Grasshopper has done this for me several times .
If the original Hopper looses both arms and both side torsos ,
it can still jump 4 and has a large laser to boot .
All they way to the end the Hopper just keeps on fighting .

Hellraiser

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #14 on: 02 October 2022, 22:37:59 »
I had a modern Fire Javelin (11F?) take an LRM carrier to the face and run away for the rest of the game with NO internal damage.
11A is the direct successor in 3053? w/ just DHS & 7 ML.
11D is the Civil War version w/ XL, MPL, ERML, C3S.
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Starfury

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #15 on: 02 October 2022, 22:58:05 »
I had a Kingfisher C survive 15 turns on a Grand Melee for a Jade Falcon Bloodname down one arm, one side torso, and most of the armor and internal structure gone on the legs before it was finally mobility killed from a mostly dead Thor A's last barrage. I killed two Stars with that thing.  I also had a MAD-3R survive a Masakari in a duel, but that was because the Masakari overheated and blew up his missiles and right arm wjen he decided to alpha strike the MAD-3R
 Blew off the left arm and the left torso, but I killed the Masakari by shooting him the head after he shutdown with a PPC and medium laser. 

But yes, the Kingfisher is incredibly tough to kill and is well armed enough in most configs that you can't ignore it.  I'll often use is it as a counter against people that invest in 3000 plus BV kill platforms like the Tomahawk II or a Turkina, becauee I can squeeze a bit more BV to upgrade the pilot.  The Flashman is also quite hard to get rid of even with an IS XL, especially if it's the Comstar model with C3i and ER Larges.  That 5/8 move curve with heavy armor and medium to short range crunch makes it a far more capable killer then most realize.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #16 on: 02 October 2022, 23:33:31 »
One of the most common errors of players is to not dedicate enough firepower to ensure a kill. They see the armor gone in a location, and if a theoretical pair of PPCs can drop it if it hits that spot again, that's all they assign.
They're drastically underestimating the likelihood of that damage ending up elsewhere.

This results in units have *far* more turns of utility than they should. The only thing worse than overkill, is underkill. Drop those suckers.

Now once you become good at killing the things that should be 100% dead, you need to get good at ignoring the things that have become irrelevant. An Orion with 1 Medium laser left is worth 0 of your firepower. It's an initiative sink. You give that little guy the spare LRM launcher as a secondary shot, provided it doesn't cause heat issues. But your main firepower better go to something that still has firepower.

My rule of thumb is to figure out how much firepower ought to kill something, then assign triple that amount against the mech.  It usually works pretty well.  Also, I make sure to step on initiative sinks when given the chance: I've played in too many games where the initiative sink wound up letting an opponent delay moving an important mech long enough to swing a round in their favor.
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Daryk

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #17 on: 03 October 2022, 03:32:17 »
11A is the direct successor in 3053? w/ just DHS & 7 ML.
11D is the Civil War version w/ XL, MPL, ERML, C3S.
11A it was, thanks!  :thumbsup:

garhkal

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #18 on: 03 October 2022, 08:38:04 »
Often enough that they're totally worth it.  The last time I remember was an Orion that was reduced to a pair of legs and a Medium Laser.  It made sufficient nuisance of itself to be thoroughly destroyed 3-4 turns later (the intervening damage being insufficient to do so).

If the torso goes, doesn't the leg also go?
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pokefan548

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #19 on: 03 October 2022, 08:38:58 »
If the torso goes, doesn't the leg also go?
Negative, just the arm. Legs are weird like that.
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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #20 on: 03 October 2022, 08:46:14 »
Negative, just the arm. Legs are weird like that.

Most legs are connected to a pelvis that's separate from the upper torso.  Quads work that way too except a front leg gets blown off upon side torso loss.

I don't think I've had many zombie 'mechs actually "zombie".  Most of the time I've used them they've fallen victim to engine and gyro crits before reaching that point.  Though by that point they've lost a side torso anyway.
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pokefan548

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #21 on: 03 October 2022, 08:58:10 »
I don't think I've had many zombie 'mechs actually "zombie".  Most of the time I've used them they've fallen victim to engine and gyro crits before reaching that point.  Though by that point they've lost a side torso anyway.
Floating TACs help with that. Well, they can, until the TAC floats to your head and cockpit-kills you.
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #22 on: 03 October 2022, 09:02:47 »
Floating TACs help with that. Well, they can, until the TAC floats to your head and cockpit-kills you.

I always play with floating TACs, I just happen to have bad luck with zombie 'mechs  :P

In MechWarrior Online on the other hand, zombie 'mechs are truly dangerous with the ability to actually roll your torso to choose where weapons fire goes.  There've been many times I've had an Atlas that was reduced to just a pair of CT-mounted medium lasers, and I'm still able to kill others  ;D
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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #23 on: 03 October 2022, 09:03:24 »
Floating TACs help with that. Well, they can, until the TAC floats to your head and cockpit-kills you.

For me they seem to gravitate towards the hips, resulting in a slower, more painful death.  :P

garhkal

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #24 on: 04 October 2022, 00:00:46 »
Negative, just the arm. Legs are weird like that.

SO while leg damage transfers to the side torso, loss of one doesn't get rid of the leg?  Strange.
Guess i remembered wrongly.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #25 on: 04 October 2022, 00:49:51 »
If losing a side torso cost you the corresponding leg, loss of a side torso would be an effective mission-kill most of the time.
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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #26 on: 04 October 2022, 11:52:25 »
SO while leg damage transfers to the side torso, loss of one doesn't get rid of the leg?  Strange.
Guess i remembered wrongly.

Look at it like this,  while the connections for electrical are to the CT/groin, any incoming fire from the side is still hitting the side torso v/s the CT, though in reality a low shot should probably miss or hit the other leg but that's getting too complex I guess.
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Demiurge

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #27 on: 04 October 2022, 15:18:03 »
Shot-to-pieces-barely-moving mechs making valiant last stands is such a huge part of the setting and its aesthetic (thinking of Aiden Pryde's shenanigans amongst other things), but it only comes up moderately often in actual gameplay.  It doesn't help that most of the tech that facilitates badly damaged mechs staying in the fight (armored components, compact gyros, reinforced internal structure) were optional rules until quite recently, and are generally not competitive with things like hardened armor or ferro lamellar armor that came in the same rules updates.

Another issue is that there are a lot of failure modes that can bring down a crippled mech for good.  This is exciting and adds suspense... but it also means that as soon as a mech has internal structure showing it could very easily get knocked out of the game instead of fighting to the end like a wounded wild boar.  Pilot hits are an under-rated source of KOs in my experience.

Colt Ward

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #28 on: 04 October 2022, 15:26:37 »
Huh?  Reinforced structure is competitive with both those armors- some designs even use both (Osteon w/FLA).  If you think Reinforced is not useful, run out the latest Mongoose.
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Hellraiser

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Re: How often do your zombie mechs actually, uh, zombie?
« Reply #29 on: 04 October 2022, 17:08:52 »
If you think Reinforced is not useful, run out the latest Mongoose.
Checked Sarna page but none of them mention Reinforced.
Is there something brand new not on there or am I just blind?
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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

 

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