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Author Topic: Legend-Killer's abilities?  (Read 12955 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #30 on: 02 December 2021, 00:20:30 »
Absolutely . . . been a while since I read it, but it does not sound like it is the first time he ends up somewhere as a battlefield assassin.  Just that the service is rare, and thus expensive though really a budgetary rounding error among the Houses.

Now I wonder why the HBS PCs never ran into Noton, since it starts before the 4SW.

Probably because the Rifleman wasn't added to the game until late and without it, what's the point of adding Norton?
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #31 on: 02 December 2021, 00:23:10 »
Heavy Metal had you bumping heads with the Bounty Hunter and Natasha Kerensky a couple of times with the Marauder and Warhammer respectively.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #32 on: 02 December 2021, 01:09:28 »
Honestly, the Bounty Hunter and Natasha have played a bigger role in the BTU.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #33 on: 02 December 2021, 01:23:15 »
Games in general are not a very good way to determine canon abilities as they are usually exaggerated or made up to make them a challenge for the player.  Plus I'm pretty sure most of the successor states wouldn't have even taken notice of the region of space HBS is set in.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #34 on: 02 December 2021, 01:24:54 »
Well Justin's first fight was in a vindicator I believe and his final fights were in that rifleman as I recall so yea he did not do all of his fights on Solaris in a centurion.

I think it was 1st in the Vindi & Last in Legend Killer, everything else was in Yen Lo Wang.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #35 on: 02 December 2021, 01:33:04 »
I think it was 1st in the Vindi & Last in Legend Killer, everything else was in Yen Lo Wang.

Point being he didn't win it on an assault.  while in the main battlefield assault may be appear more often by this time.  what are the chances Every major stable had an assault ready for their champion by the time justin took control.  Again this is at the start of the 4th before the memory core was discover by the grey death legion.   I think while factor may be putting out heavies and assault for some of the houses at this time they still were in the recovery stage from the 3rd by the time Norton was champion and they was a lack of big assault mechs and heavies for Solaris open championship and that continue well into when Justin took the championship.  Kai on the other hand may had been just that good lol

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #36 on: 02 December 2021, 01:46:12 »
Norton is noted as having defeated mechs like Stalkers and Atlases in Legend Killer, though.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #37 on: 02 December 2021, 04:47:18 »
Norton is noted as having defeated mechs like Stalkers and Atlases in Legend Killer, though.

He had a longer career than Justin Allard. More chance to fight assaults.

Also, in the book where his story was taking place, assault mechs were definitely treated as rare. I think all of two actually appear in Warrior:Riposte, and not many more in later books in the series.

In fact Justin even insists that he needs a heavy mech, not an assault, and his big rival and prior reigning champion for the crown was also doing it using a rifleman.

I think the problem is that people are assuming there's a consistent continuity between all these different authors when... there isn't. Michael Stackpole obviously considered a rifleman sufficient as a serious contender for the title, and he wrote his scenes with that in mind.

A later author decided the open class was dominated by assault mechs, therefore something fishy was obviously going on with Noton's Rifleman.

(but not Philip Capet's Rifleman)
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #38 on: 02 December 2021, 06:42:08 »
Norton is noted as having defeated mechs like Stalkers and Atlases in Legend Killer, though.

I have also taken down Stalkers and Atlases in a Rifleman in duels. I even have a Dire Wolf Kill in classic 3N.
The heavier 'mechs are slower, and, by using terrain and fire arcs, you can restrict what weapons can be brought
to bear. You cannot win if you go toe-to-toe with an assault in a Rifleman, but in a war of maneuvre? The Rifleman
has the edge against most assaults, provided the pilot makes NO mistakes. Interestingly, the Zeus and the Banshee
would, despite how much maligned they are, would be much better against a Rifleman in an arena setting than a
Stalker or Atlas.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #39 on: 02 December 2021, 08:08:54 »
Honestly, the idea of facing a Rifleman-3N with a combat computer quirk, access to the full suite of TacOps rules, and a competent player scares the crap out of me, and that's without putting an elite pilot in there OR SPAs.
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klarg1

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #40 on: 02 December 2021, 08:45:15 »
Literally anybody can say "some evidence".

There are people who claim some bits of weird looking industrial slag are "evidence" of alien spaceships.

Also something that constitutes "evidence" isn't in and of itself a conclusion. That's why we have trials instead of immediately declaring guilt or innocence.

We also know that Philip Capet was ostensibly rising to the top of the class V circuit, and seemed perfectly happy to ride into battle in his own Rifleman in the same era. It strains belief that he somehow *also* had a secret lostech assault ‘mech his disposal.

My takeaway is that there just weren’t a lot of heavies and assaults available on Solaris in that period. For those that don’t like it, I think it’s fair to dismiss it as part of the early days of “scavenger tech” fiction and establish a new head canon.

SPAs and quirks seem like the way to go if you want to model the RFL-3N as portrayed.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2021, 08:47:23 by klarg1 »

Lazarus Sinn

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #41 on: 02 December 2021, 08:51:14 »
Back in the days before the clans existed and the only advanced tech book out was the 2750 TRO, we found a cache of SL Mechs and equipment. Our GM fluffed all of the Mechs to reflect how pristine SL era vintage Mechs would be of better quality and perform better than the Mechs that were being built in the 3025 era or mechs that had generations of maintenance with lesser quality equipment.

Basically, any SL vintage BattleMech (i.e. had not been used between the collapse of the SL and when it was found and reactivated) had a +1 to pilot and gunnery Mech and +1 to sensor ops skills.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #42 on: 02 December 2021, 08:52:05 »
That's borne out by the fact that the group that ambushed Justin Xiang in Iron Mountain had a number of lights, including a Firestarter and an UrbanMech. 

If they're letting UrbanMechs into championship duels, yeah - a Rifleman can dominate.  (This was also when Assault 'Mechs were being portrayed as super-rare titans that dominated the battlefield.  Despite them only being 10 tons heavier than an Archer or Warhammer, everyone in Warrior: En Garde freaked out on Pacifica when a Victor squared off against an Awesome, describing it as a clash that would go down in legend.)
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #43 on: 02 December 2021, 13:41:09 »
everyone in Warrior: En Garde freaked out on Pacifica when a Victor squared off against an Awesome, describing it as a clash that would go down in legend.)

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Maingunnery

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #44 on: 02 December 2021, 16:04:50 »
Why not both?


Having a second 'Mech that looks identical to Legend-Killer would be an excellent tool for whenever he needed to take a fall or couldn't get Legend-Killer repaired on time.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #45 on: 02 December 2021, 17:11:18 »
Despite them only being 10 tons heavier than an Archer or Warhammer, everyone in Warrior: En Garde freaked out on Pacifica when a Victor squared off against an Awesome, describing it as a clash that would go down in legend.)

Were the 'mech weights stated, or was it a case of mistaken identity?  Stackpole didn't always get his 'mechs straight, especially when it came to describing Vlad Ward's "Executioner", which is clearly a Dire Wolf stat-wise  ::)  Or the difference between a Nova and a Stormcrow in another one of his stories.  For all I know, being unfamiliar with that story, he could've been actually writing a duel between an Atlas and a King Crab.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #46 on: 02 December 2021, 17:24:36 »
Also rule of cool. If you like the Rifleman, your going to write cool stories about the Rifleman.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #47 on: 02 December 2021, 17:36:02 »
Also rule of cool. If you like the Rifleman, your going to write cool stories about the Rifleman.

I love the Stormhammer Rifleman 8D mini . . . it has sat on my desk or CPU over the years for several moves.

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Apocal

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #48 on: 03 December 2021, 12:49:59 »
The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons.
...
I'm all for quirks & other items too for it to be special & last 7 full years as the champ.   Just wish all that somehow covered the "we know it was heavier" quote.

Or the sensors are calibrated for a particular reading of footfall patterns to infer weight and something about LK's modifications trip them up. That would fit well with the idea that LK is running custom myomers (for easier piloting or faster rotation?) along with its electronics.

klarg1

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #49 on: 03 December 2021, 13:05:34 »
Or the sensors are calibrated for a particular reading of footfall patterns to infer weight and something about LK's modifications trip them up. That would fit well with the idea that LK is running custom myomers (for easier piloting or faster rotation?) along with its electronics.

I suppose it’s possible. Given the amount of text devoted exposition and internal monologues in the Warrior trilogy it seems odd that none of the three characters with access to the ‘mech seem all that interested in the technology. It also leaves the question of why Capet did so well unanswered.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #50 on: 03 December 2021, 19:39:41 »
Were the 'mech weights stated, or was it a case of mistaken identity?  Stackpole didn't always get his 'mechs straight, especially when it came to describing Vlad Ward's "Executioner", which is clearly a Dire Wolf stat-wise  ::)  Or the difference between a Nova and a Stormcrow in another one of his stories.  For all I know, being unfamiliar with that story, he could've been actually writing a duel between an Atlas and a King Crab.

He knew the difference between a Victor and an Awesome, and in that story they were both loaded out with the correct weapons. I'm also going to write Legend Killer off as it being part of the scavenger nature of early Battletech.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #51 on: 04 December 2021, 04:46:56 »
Also rule of cool. If you like the Rifleman, your going to write cool stories about the Rifleman.

Something I just remembered from a good while back: one of the only people I know who thinks the Rifleman is a great mech also plays without the Heat rules. Maybe Stackpole was doing the same lol.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #52 on: 04 December 2021, 13:50:50 »
Something I just remembered from a good while back: one of the only people I know who thinks the Rifleman is a great mech also plays without the Heat rules. Maybe Stackpole was doing the same lol.

I know I built a rifleman variant with DHS and 4 large lasers that was pretty brutal

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #53 on: 04 December 2021, 17:16:13 »
Were the 'mech weights stated, or was it a case of mistaken identity?  Stackpole didn't always get his 'mechs straight, especially when it came to describing Vlad Ward's "Executioner", which is clearly a Dire Wolf stat-wise  ::)  Or the difference between a Nova and a Stormcrow in another one of his stories.  For all I know, being unfamiliar with that story, he could've been actually writing a duel between an Atlas and a King Crab.

He knew the difference between a Victor and an Awesome, and in that story they were both loaded out with the correct weapons.

When Stackpole was writing those particular clan stories I think a lot of the rules were not even published yet.
Hell Email was barely a thing at the time the book was published.
He was probably working off some scribbled notes from 2 years earlier when they had a meeting about how to bring back in the SLDF remnants.

I think the real epic part of the Victor/Awesome story was that it was both pilots were the unit commanders or legendary guests.

IIRC the DC forces only had a company of Panthers & a lance of 55 tonners & then the CO in the Awesome.

The Hounds were only a Company of Light-Heavy weight mechs at the time w/ Sortek visiting for some reason IIRC.

So yeah the 2 assaults were the only assaults & not much bigger than some of the Kell big mechs  (Marauder, T-Bolt)..........
But it was WHO was in them that added to it.
The leaders, the legends, the biggest mechs on the battlefield, and the way they squared off into a duel v/s participating in the rest of the fight.

At least that is what I'm imagining, its honestly been years since I read the Trilogy.   I should dig it out & give it another read for old times sake.
« Last Edit: 05 December 2021, 00:57:53 by Hellraiser »
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #54 on: 04 December 2021, 19:32:35 »
I suppose it’s possible. Given the amount of text devoted exposition and internal monologues in the Warrior trilogy it seems odd that none of the three characters with access to the ‘mech seem all that interested in the technology. It also leaves the question of why Capet did so well unanswered.
And I see Hellraiser has beaten me to it.  :-[  But yeah, it's hard (to the point of Impossible) for "the three characters with access to the ‘Mech" to have internal Monologues about Technology that hadn't been created for the GAME yet.  Like wondering why people in the 1800's weren't writing stories, complaining about the lack of cell phone service along the Oregon Trail so they could call for assistance.   :D
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #55 on: 04 December 2021, 19:42:57 »
There was a canon rumor in the Rifleman II fluff that suggest it was part reason why Gray Noton  got where he was.  Since it resembles the Rifleman, yet its wee bit more.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #56 on: 05 December 2021, 10:52:33 »
There was a canon rumor in the Rifleman II fluff that suggest it was part reason why Gray Noton  got where he was.  Since it resembles the Rifleman, yet its wee bit more.

Which I still hate because 1.) A reminder we NEVER seen official art of the Rifleman II so yet another tease and 2.) This was after it was established that there is a notables difference in scale between something the size of a QuickDraw and something the size of a Awesome.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #57 on: 05 December 2021, 14:54:30 »
Yeah, the idea that a mech X tons heavier is going to be a perfect clone of the previous model visually, let alone through sheer mass and upgraded performance resulting from what those tons are spent on, is completely a non-starter.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #58 on: 05 December 2021, 15:00:18 »
Which I still hate because 1.) A reminder we NEVER seen official art of the Rifleman II so yet another tease and 2.) This was after it was established that there is a notables difference in scale between something the size of a QuickDraw and something the size of a Awesome.
On point 2, that just depends on how the 'Mechs in question are designed not all have the same density and many 'Mechs of different tonnages share components.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #59 on: 05 December 2021, 15:00:57 »
Noton also comments that Justin almost took him down.  In a Valkyrie.  If he was piloting a SLDF-tech 80 ton machine and almost lost to a 30 ton introtech machine that relies on a LRM system for main damage...then I'd call him a pretty pathetic mechwarrior.  And we know he's not.

 

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