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BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Weirdo on 01 December 2021, 10:44:10

Title: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 01 December 2021, 10:44:10
I forget, did anyone ever stat out what the full abilities were supposed to come from the crazy fusion of multiple targeting systems and SLDF helmet that was described in Legend-Killer's entry in Legends?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MarauderD on 01 December 2021, 10:49:36
As a fan of the Rifleman, I haven't seen any such list of statted out abilities on Legend-Killer.  It could be out there, but I don't think so?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 01 December 2021, 11:34:10
Think Fasa just wrote him as a very good shot.

Over the years, some fans just started making a stink that there was very slim chance that you could recreate Legend Killer's wins in game... which makes sense because it's fiction and the game relies heavily on odds from a RNG vs actual skill marksmanship.

The idea LK may have been using some sort of lost tech targeting computer is a good compromise between LK have amazing skill and the idea he must have had some sort of edge over his opponents. After all, allot of computer gear a mech uses only gets mentioned in the fluff without it actually contributing to the mechs/pilots stats.   
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 01 December 2021, 12:38:18
No, there were no game mechanics made for it.  Broadly one could infer that you get the Combat Computer Quirk (Spar 3C), some sort of to-hit bonus (Tru-Trak), and another blanket -1 from the SLDF helmet.  The actuators and myomer have never been treated as components that affect core gameplay stats before outside of movement (which is why I chose them for the entry), but the idea was it would perhaps lend itself to defensive and PSR bonuses.

But yeah, SteelRaven's note really sums up my thoughts on the matter too: that fiction and the game don't line up all that well at times, making some things that are possible in the universe extremely hard to achieve on the tabletop.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 01 December 2021, 13:09:39
IIRC the SLDF era Neuro Helmets were given stats in some publication.
I honestly forget what book had them, but, they were a bonus of -1 to Piloting Checks.

Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 01 December 2021, 13:10:47
They were: the Tactical Handbook.  That was replaced by their entry in IO, which gave them a revised bonus I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 December 2021, 13:17:38
Well, the myomer would be simple . . . some sort of prototype, custom homebuilt tweaked myomer that replicates (in table top's abstract nature) the AES system that would never hold up in field conditions.  Sort of like the whole 'we can give soldiers powered exoskeletons!' . . . that can only work for 30 minutes on the battery they can hump or have to stay plugged into a generator.

Addtionally, like Xotl and SteelRaven mention, table top TW rules do not lend themselves to duplicating fiction feats except in the broadest sense- IE, a battle result.  The reason is that 'luck' averages out with the more numbers- individual luck plays a larger factor in lance vs lance battles than company vs company battles.

To really replicate Legend-Killer's performance in the arenas you would need to use RPG rules b/c that is a more proper granularity to accomplishing those feats.  Even then, results will still not exactly duplicate because of random results.

Further trying to reflect Legend-Killer/Gray Noton's synergy . . . Noton as the pilot could also be said to express some SPAs.  I am not sure if any really stand out the little bit we see him in fiction.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 01 December 2021, 13:42:32
Broadly one could infer that you get the Combat Computer Quirk (Spar 3C), some sort of to-hit bonus (Tru-Trak)

THIS is the kind of info I was looking for. Is there any particular quirk associated with mechs built with the Tru-Trak?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 01 December 2021, 14:34:01
No.  It's from the Phoenix Hawk entry, which implies a general accuracy bonus.  However, as the Phoenix Hawk is a common mech even in the lostech days, when making the quirk list we left off any sort of accuracy bonus because it didn't make sense for the era.  IIRC we decided that such a bonus would apply to old-school examples of the Hawk, but not new-make ones.  Since we put off having to apply the bonus, though, we never did settle on what precise bonuses the full suite would provide.  The quirk system deliberately has no provision for flat +1 bonuses, so it probably wouldn't be that: it instead prefers to assign bonuses either for individual weapons or at specific range brackets.  You could conceivably kit out a mech with Improved Targeting Short, Medium, and Long and have that effect, but no canon mech has that (the closest is the Clint, which has Medium and Long; even then, it's the only mech in the game with a quirk-based targeting system that good).

Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 01 December 2021, 14:39:46
Fair enough. I guess the best bet for anyone wanting to see Noton strut his stuff on the tabletop would be to load him down with SPAs.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: guardiandashi on 01 December 2021, 14:52:32
THIS is the kind of info I was looking for. Is there any particular quirk associated with mechs built with the Tru-Trak?
yes but only if you go to the battletechnology magazine article
there are 2 2page entries with every mech T&T computer listed from 2750 through 3025/3050 (except the clan ones)

the most "broken" T&T computer is the slone 220 lockover which was only in the clint and it would not be unfair to say that the T&T computer would realistically be worth more than the entire mech, in fact at the end of the article it basically says that someone was offering to trade an entire battalion of mechs for the slone 220 and the person getting the T&T computer would be getting the better side of the deal.

as I remember it. there are 3 (10) computers that stand out but for different reasons.
the slone 220, has it all, 2x tam (two point targeting advantage) target id battlecomputer 360 scanning a bunch of other things and it bumps the first heat targeting issue to just before the first ammo explosion check, but its really hard to fix if it gets damaged
the tek tru track? the phoenix hawks T&T is mostly so os to junk except it has 2x TAM
the T&T from the sentenal from 2750 has an interesting querk in that it adds 6 hexes to the long range bracket unless you are talking weapons with a 3 hex max range then it extends the ranges of all brackets.
the garret d2j from the rifleman, and its bigger brother have built in aerospace targeting module (bonus to hit aircraft)

its actually a really good/interesting article
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: General308 on 01 December 2021, 15:31:21
I forget, did anyone ever stat out what the full abilities were supposed to come from the crazy fusion of multiple targeting systems and SLDF helmet that was described in Legend-Killer's entry in Legends?

Isn't the SLDF helmet in Interstellar Operations?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 01 December 2021, 16:14:53
Yeah, that one was easy to find.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 01 December 2021, 16:17:49
As a fan of the Rifleman, I haven't seen any such list of statted out abilities on Legend-Killer.  It could be out there, but I don't think so?
it was in BattleTech: Legends (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech:_Legends)

short version, after a collector obtained Legend Killer, it was found it had a mashup of the Garret D2J targeting system and the Spar 3c Battlecomputer off a stalker, with markings suggesting it had been developed in SLDF times for a gunslinger. the mech also had customized myomer bundling and the guts of a SLDF neurohelmet inside a standard helmet's housing.

basically instead of having some sort of hyper custome weapons load or extra heavy mech, his late succession wars version RFL-3R was tricked out with stuff that would give it quirks. no list of them was given (left to the Gm) but you could make a good argument based on fluff for both variable range targeting (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Design_Quirks#Variable_Range_Targeting_.5BBT.2C_AS.2C_SBF.5D) (from the Garret D2J fluff) and Combat Computer (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Design_Quirks#Combat_Computer_.5BBT.2C_AS.5D) (from the Spar 3c off the stalker) which would make the weapons much more accurate but also the whole mech run cooler. the neurohelmet would fall under the SLDF gear rules which gives a bonus to piloting.

the custom myomer don't suggest any obvious quirks and may just be a side effect if how hand built the thing would be..

of course that many positive quirks would certainly have al ot of negative ones, probably non-standard parts, difficult to maintain, maybe even ramshackle too. would have been a major hanger queen.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 01 December 2021, 16:29:56
The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons.

This was well before the Rifleman-II was introduced into the game, so whether they call it a stripped down RFL-3N2 chassis or if it started as a 3N that got the "Marauder-II / Centurion-Maximus" treatment, either way, that quote makes me think it should be heavier.

I'm all for quirks & other items too for it to be special & last 7 full years as the champ.   Just wish all that somehow covered the "we know it was heavier" quote.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 December 2021, 16:37:49
I still say the Myomer sounds like a custom AES type system.

of course that many positive quirks would certainly have al ot of negative ones, probably non-standard parts, difficult to maintain, maybe even ramshackle too. would have been a major hanger queen.

Yeah, TONS of negative quirks you might also have to consider things like Prototype (increased crit hits/damage), probably a chance for Sensor Ghost (directly linked to malfunctioning SL Advanced Neurohelmet), repairs perhaps causing EM Interference (negate Combat Computer or TT comp quirk until fixed) thought it would be campaign related so usually irrelevant to Weirdo.

Besides that you also have to consider the RP-side that Noton would have followed . . . IE, it took a post-mortem after it was out of his possession to figure this stuff out SO following the old saying, 'Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead,' it means Legend-Killer did not have a huge tech staff supporting repairs, regular maintenance or even keeping those barely compatible systems speaking to each other.  Which means you are talking about him allowing VERY few techs to touch it, and none of them ever spoke about what they found.  Now factor that in to how long it would take to fix or maintain the mech.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 01 December 2021, 17:03:13
yep.. which works for a Solaris mech, where you have a fair bit of time between battles, and can afford to retain a small team of very skilled techs to rebuild the thing after each.

we also know that he had a lot of pull with the underworld types on solaris 7 after retirement, so i wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't cultivate those ties during his career, arranging to get some fights rigged in his favor in exchange for earning the mafia types some extra money through bets. which might help explain why his mech never took so bad a beating against assaults that its special T&T system took damage.

The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons
except it wasn't "evidence", it was rumor that it was a heavier mech. which suggests that we're talking fan conspiracy theory stuff where they ran the footfalls of the mech in a holovid recording through a sound processor, or something like that, rather than anything like hard evidence from the arena sensors.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: five_corparty on 01 December 2021, 17:03:44
Fair enough. I guess the best bet for anyone wanting to see Noton strut his stuff on the tabletop would be to load him down with SPAs.

Yeah, adding SPAs to the quirks mentioned above (ad-hoc targeting computer and good helmet) and suddenly, you've got an elite pilot that could conceivably be as good as the fiction.

Be a good enemy NPC / big-bad for a campaign!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 01 December 2021, 17:10:02
it was in BattleTech: Legends (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech:_Legends)

short version, after a collector obtained Legend Killer, it was found it had a mashup of the Garret D2J targeting system and the Spar 3c Battlecomputer off a stalker

The Tru-Trak, not the Garret D2J.  I discuss it a couple of posts above yours.

except it wasn't "evidence", it was rumor that it was a heavier mech. which suggests that we're talking fan conspiracy theory stuff where they ran the footfalls of the mech in a holovid recording through a sound processor, or something like that, rather than anything like hard evidence from the arena sensors.

Exactly.  The Legends entry goes specifically into the reasons why the heavier/Star League mech theory is impossible.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 December 2021, 18:01:27
Yeah, adding SPAs to the quirks mentioned above (ad-hoc targeting computer and good helmet) and suddenly, you've got an elite pilot that could conceivably be as good as the fiction.

Be a good enemy NPC / big-bad for a campaign!  :thumbsup:

Absolutely . . . been a while since I read it, but it does not sound like it is the first time he ends up somewhere as a battlefield assassin.  Just that the service is rare, and thus expensive though really a budgetary rounding error among the Houses.

Now I wonder why the HBS PCs never ran into Noton, since it starts before the 4SW.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 01 December 2021, 18:04:55
except it wasn't "evidence", it was rumor that it was a heavier mech. which suggests that we're talking fan conspiracy theory stuff where they ran the footfalls of the mech in a holovid recording through a sound processor, or something like that, rather than anything like hard evidence from the arena sensors.

Exactly.  The Legends entry goes specifically into the reasons why the heavier/Star League mech theory is impossible.

That isn't what the quote says.

The Rumor/Theory part is in reference to him maybe having round a SL Cache of advanced gear.  And only came about years later after the SLDF tech & arrival of the clans.

It then goes on to say "In Addition, some Evidenceexists that Noton's mech weighed considerably more & had been upgraded to 80-90 tons like the Marauder-II with extra armor.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 01 December 2021, 18:52:16
I'm tired of having this debate in the forum every time Legend Killer is brought up.

Writers: QUITE TEASING US FOR LOLZ AND JUST TELL US WHAT MODEL MECH IT WAS!
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 01 December 2021, 18:58:38
I did as much as I was allowed to.  On any well-established sport where there's a million sensors and cameras and fortunes are at stake because literally billions are watching and betting on the outcome, the idea that they would just let you sneak in a bigger mech and have no way of catching that is like the idea that they would let you bring a fighter that's actually three Mike Tysons in a trenchcoat into a boxing match.  The trick then is trying to explain how a seemingly regular Rifleman could survive, without 100% appealing to a gameplay vs. fiction disconnect.

Hellraiser is correct on the "some evidence" part, but since it never details what it is and I thought it outright silly, I decided the unstated evidence didn't amount to anything.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 01 December 2021, 19:07:43
Literally anybody can say "some evidence".

There are people who claim some bits of weird looking industrial slag are "evidence" of alien spaceships.

Also something that constitutes "evidence" isn't in and of itself a conclusion. That's why we have trials instead of immediately declaring guilt or innocence.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 01 December 2021, 20:40:21
I did as much as I was allowed to.  On any well-established sport where there's a million sensors and cameras and fortunes are at stake because literally billions are watching and betting on the outcome, the idea that they would just let you sneak in a bigger mech and have no way of catching that is like the idea that they would let you bring a fighter that's actually three Mike Tysons in a trenchcoat into a boxing match.  The trick then is trying to explain how a seemingly regular Rifleman could survive, without 100% appealing to a gameplay vs. fiction disconnect.

Hellraiser is correct on the "some evidence" part, but since it never details what it is and I thought it outright silly, I decided the unstated evidence didn't amount to anything.



As I mentioned before, my thought is its some sort of seismic sensor, that isn't likely to be "to the ton" accurate.
IIRC something like Vibrabombs have a 10 ton wiggle room to set them off.
Meanwhile a seem to recall the sensors in some of the video games will just tell you something is approaching, and then as its closer, maybe say "size class" or "mech v/s tank".  Only when its on top of you do you get a visual ID of what it is. 
Not that I'm saying MechCommander or something is the same as a Mech Cockpit in universe.

I'm just saying some people say Oh it would tell you exactly what the tonnage is.  Yet, we have examples of where things don't do that.
Heck AFAIK military radar only gives you a "blip" and then based on some of the characteristics of said "blip" and previous sightings you can maybe narrow it down from there.
Sub sonar can start to narrow down things based on hearing them before right?  You don't just get a perfect read out, someone has to have experience listening to decipher what they are hearing.

Then there is the gambling & corruption of Solaris itself, heck, they used to not account for the skill of the Pilot IIRC & it was only based on a basic Mech v Mech fight card.
So you would have Ace Gunslingers fighting Rookies & that would slew the odds makers & only after some time did they start to account for Who the Pilot was and what their Military Record & Fight Record were when making betting odds.   This is exactly the what you were talking about w/ 3 Mike Tysons, well not exactly, but point is they didn't used to track it at all.  Now they do but its far from perfect. 
Then again, Solaris might intentionally not be giving out the most perfectly accurate data on the mechs since anyone watching the broadcast could be conveying that same info back to the opponent.
Heck, we have a story in the original Shrapnel where just changing the radio frequency allowed 2 opponents to discuss privately w/o anyone from the games listening, and then there was the sabotage/rigging IIRC in both the Justin Xiang Novels & the Black Thorns novel.  So its not like everything on Solaris is on the up & up & nothing every happens that the gaming commission doesn't know about.

Having a basic sensor profile but NOT a break down, part by part, of each mech keeps some of those odds makers guessing still.
And a big Rifleman is still a Rifleman.  There are enough customs on Solaris & across the IS that some minor cosmetic differences might just add to the "rumors".
Heck the Solaris Set even gives you rules for how much custom work is going on with tables & rolls to point out how often you are NOT fighting a "Stock" TRO mech.

Finally we have Noton's own story from a while back where IIRC he thinks to himself about how he has 2 different mechs.
To me, that little tidbit just adds a more wiggle room to the "some evidence" part.

Because maybe one week the "Rifleman" seems to trigger at a different pressure per step than his previous 2 weeks.

Maybe he only needed the "Special" one for when he was dealing with a particularly difficult fight.
Say an Elite Pilot in an Atlas....... compared to say an Elite+Warhammer-6R  or  Regular+Stalker-3F.

If he's only trotting out in the tricked out model occasionally, that would be "Some Evidence". 
The very fact that the sensors read funny only sometimes might lead many to think its a sensor problem & not that this guy owns 2 wildly different Riflemen.
Isn't that basically a plot part to like every infiltration seen in every movie ever?  The sensor goes wonky for a minute & then gets ignored as a "glitch".

Even keeping the speed the same for an 85 ton mech nets you the same armor as a Bmer & 1 more SHS than the Rifleman.
Going w/ the same engine as the Rifleman & a flat 80 tons gives you a slower but maxed out Armor w/ near full Alpha ability in SHS using just Intro tech.

Those TC quirks would help for sure, Noton being 0/0 pilot would help, only facing Regular 4/5 would help, and even with all that, I'm still not sure I'm buying a 7.5 tons of Armor surviving against assault mechs for 7 years of fighting w/o getting pasted.

I have no doubt Noton was a bad arse, but that Solaris Set line & his own comment about a 2nd Mech makes me think the idea of some sort of tonnage increase was likely.
As I originally stated up thread, I just felt like that piece was ignored & actually, you basically confirmed that.  So to me, that is disappointing.
Doubly so when those computers are from other mechs that he would also face at times, so when those other mechs were faced, like the Stalker, they would have had the same advantages so its not really giving Noton an edge to explain the 7 year streak.


Literally anybody can say "some evidence".

There are people who claim some bits of weird looking industrial slag are "evidence" of alien spaceships.
I wasn't aware the Solaris 7 set giving a full write up of the Planet, the games, & the Champions or Noton's own monologue was the same as some random farmer seeing lights in the sky & claiming aliens.
Would Billy Bob in his basement in Kansas w/ his sound recording equipment get his "evidence" included on the Kansas Bureau of Tourism Visitors Guide Website?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 01 December 2021, 20:53:30
I wasn't aware the Solaris 7 set giving a full write up of the Planet, the games, & the Champions or Noton's own monologue was the same as some random farmer seeing lights in the sky & claiming aliens.
Would Billy Bob in his basement in Kansas w/ his sound recording equipment get his "evidence" included on the Kansas Bureau of Tourism Visitors Guide Website?

By Billy Bob in his basement, you of course mean senators, billionaire aerospace developers, and the government sponsored research they get funding for?  :D

Because if not... (https://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/a-potential-solution-to-the-mystery-of-the-alien-metal-promoted-by-to-the-stars)

(mods, that's as far as I will go on that, I promise!)

Unspecified "evidence" is meaningless, regardless of appeals to authority.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: nckestrel on 01 December 2021, 21:03:16
It then goes on to say "In Addition, some Evidenceexists that Noton's mech weighed considerably more & had been upgraded to 80-90 tons like the Marauder-II with extra armor.

What was the evidence?  If it was clear evidence, it wouldn't be a question any more. 


Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Marveryn on 01 December 2021, 21:08:48
The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons.

This was well before the Rifleman-II was introduced into the game, so whether they call it a stripped down RFL-3N2 chassis or if it started as a 3N that got the "Marauder-II / Centurion-Maximus" treatment, either way, that quote makes me think it should be heavier.

I'm all for quirks & other items too for it to be special & last 7 full years as the champ.   Just wish all that somehow covered the "we know it was heavier" quote.

i never mind the rifleman as we had in the same book a 50ton mech achieve  it.  to me it just show at the time mech were so sparse that mech fought in that time were not assault and tended to the lower end heavy
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Middcore on 01 December 2021, 23:17:27
i never mind the rifleman as we had in the same book a 50ton mech achieve  it. to me it just show at the time mech were so sparse that mech fought in that time were not assault and tended to the lower end heavy

Yeah, they weren't, though. The "Mad Max" stylings of the very early source material had already been cast aside by that time.

I also don't think there's any explicit statement that Justin exclusively piloted his Centurion on his run to the championship.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Crimson Dawn on 01 December 2021, 23:24:31
Well Justin's first fight was in a vindicator I believe and his final fights were in that rifleman as I recall so yea he did not do all of his fights on Solaris in a centurion.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 December 2021, 00:20:30
Absolutely . . . been a while since I read it, but it does not sound like it is the first time he ends up somewhere as a battlefield assassin.  Just that the service is rare, and thus expensive though really a budgetary rounding error among the Houses.

Now I wonder why the HBS PCs never ran into Noton, since it starts before the 4SW.

Probably because the Rifleman wasn't added to the game until late and without it, what's the point of adding Norton?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 December 2021, 00:23:10
Heavy Metal had you bumping heads with the Bounty Hunter and Natasha Kerensky a couple of times with the Marauder and Warhammer respectively.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 02 December 2021, 01:09:28
Honestly, the Bounty Hunter and Natasha have played a bigger role in the BTU.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Luciora on 02 December 2021, 01:23:15
Games in general are not a very good way to determine canon abilities as they are usually exaggerated or made up to make them a challenge for the player.  Plus I'm pretty sure most of the successor states wouldn't have even taken notice of the region of space HBS is set in.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 02 December 2021, 01:24:54
Well Justin's first fight was in a vindicator I believe and his final fights were in that rifleman as I recall so yea he did not do all of his fights on Solaris in a centurion.

I think it was 1st in the Vindi & Last in Legend Killer, everything else was in Yen Lo Wang.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Marveryn on 02 December 2021, 01:33:04
I think it was 1st in the Vindi & Last in Legend Killer, everything else was in Yen Lo Wang.

Point being he didn't win it on an assault.  while in the main battlefield assault may be appear more often by this time.  what are the chances Every major stable had an assault ready for their champion by the time justin took control.  Again this is at the start of the 4th before the memory core was discover by the grey death legion.   I think while factor may be putting out heavies and assault for some of the houses at this time they still were in the recovery stage from the 3rd by the time Norton was champion and they was a lack of big assault mechs and heavies for Solaris open championship and that continue well into when Justin took the championship.  Kai on the other hand may had been just that good lol
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 December 2021, 01:46:12
Norton is noted as having defeated mechs like Stalkers and Atlases in Legend Killer, though.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 02 December 2021, 04:47:18
Norton is noted as having defeated mechs like Stalkers and Atlases in Legend Killer, though.

He had a longer career than Justin Allard. More chance to fight assaults.

Also, in the book where his story was taking place, assault mechs were definitely treated as rare. I think all of two actually appear in Warrior:Riposte, and not many more in later books in the series.

In fact Justin even insists that he needs a heavy mech, not an assault, and his big rival and prior reigning champion for the crown was also doing it using a rifleman.

I think the problem is that people are assuming there's a consistent continuity between all these different authors when... there isn't. Michael Stackpole obviously considered a rifleman sufficient as a serious contender for the title, and he wrote his scenes with that in mind.

A later author decided the open class was dominated by assault mechs, therefore something fishy was obviously going on with Noton's Rifleman.

(but not Philip Capet's Rifleman)
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: StCptMara on 02 December 2021, 06:42:08
Norton is noted as having defeated mechs like Stalkers and Atlases in Legend Killer, though.

I have also taken down Stalkers and Atlases in a Rifleman in duels. I even have a Dire Wolf Kill in classic 3N.
The heavier 'mechs are slower, and, by using terrain and fire arcs, you can restrict what weapons can be brought
to bear. You cannot win if you go toe-to-toe with an assault in a Rifleman, but in a war of maneuvre? The Rifleman
has the edge against most assaults, provided the pilot makes NO mistakes. Interestingly, the Zeus and the Banshee
would, despite how much maligned they are, would be much better against a Rifleman in an arena setting than a
Stalker or Atlas.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 02 December 2021, 08:08:54
Honestly, the idea of facing a Rifleman-3N with a combat computer quirk, access to the full suite of TacOps rules, and a competent player scares the crap out of me, and that's without putting an elite pilot in there OR SPAs.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: klarg1 on 02 December 2021, 08:45:15
Literally anybody can say "some evidence".

There are people who claim some bits of weird looking industrial slag are "evidence" of alien spaceships.

Also something that constitutes "evidence" isn't in and of itself a conclusion. That's why we have trials instead of immediately declaring guilt or innocence.

We also know that Philip Capet was ostensibly rising to the top of the class V circuit, and seemed perfectly happy to ride into battle in his own Rifleman in the same era. It strains belief that he somehow *also* had a secret lostech assault ‘mech his disposal.

My takeaway is that there just weren’t a lot of heavies and assaults available on Solaris in that period. For those that don’t like it, I think it’s fair to dismiss it as part of the early days of “scavenger tech” fiction and establish a new head canon.

SPAs and quirks seem like the way to go if you want to model the RFL-3N as portrayed.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Lazarus Sinn on 02 December 2021, 08:51:14
Back in the days before the clans existed and the only advanced tech book out was the 2750 TRO, we found a cache of SL Mechs and equipment. Our GM fluffed all of the Mechs to reflect how pristine SL era vintage Mechs would be of better quality and perform better than the Mechs that were being built in the 3025 era or mechs that had generations of maintenance with lesser quality equipment.

Basically, any SL vintage BattleMech (i.e. had not been used between the collapse of the SL and when it was found and reactivated) had a +1 to pilot and gunnery Mech and +1 to sensor ops skills.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 02 December 2021, 08:52:05
That's borne out by the fact that the group that ambushed Justin Xiang in Iron Mountain had a number of lights, including a Firestarter and an UrbanMech. 

If they're letting UrbanMechs into championship duels, yeah - a Rifleman can dominate.  (This was also when Assault 'Mechs were being portrayed as super-rare titans that dominated the battlefield.  Despite them only being 10 tons heavier than an Archer or Warhammer, everyone in Warrior: En Garde freaked out on Pacifica when a Victor squared off against an Awesome, describing it as a clash that would go down in legend.)
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: five_corparty on 02 December 2021, 13:41:09
everyone in Warrior: En Garde freaked out on Pacifica when a Victor squared off against an Awesome, describing it as a clash that would go down in legend.)

Modern era "but for me, that was a Tuesday." ;-p hahaha
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Maingunnery on 02 December 2021, 16:04:50
Why not both?


Having a second 'Mech that looks identical to Legend-Killer would be an excellent tool for whenever he needed to take a fall or couldn't get Legend-Killer repaired on time.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 02 December 2021, 17:11:18
Despite them only being 10 tons heavier than an Archer or Warhammer, everyone in Warrior: En Garde freaked out on Pacifica when a Victor squared off against an Awesome, describing it as a clash that would go down in legend.)

Were the 'mech weights stated, or was it a case of mistaken identity?  Stackpole didn't always get his 'mechs straight, especially when it came to describing Vlad Ward's "Executioner", which is clearly a Dire Wolf stat-wise  ::)  Or the difference between a Nova and a Stormcrow in another one of his stories.  For all I know, being unfamiliar with that story, he could've been actually writing a duel between an Atlas and a King Crab.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 02 December 2021, 17:24:36
Also rule of cool. If you like the Rifleman, your going to write cool stories about the Rifleman.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 December 2021, 17:36:02
Also rule of cool. If you like the Rifleman, your going to write cool stories about the Rifleman.

I love the Stormhammer Rifleman 8D mini . . . it has sat on my desk or CPU over the years for several moves.

Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 03 December 2021, 12:49:59
The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons.
...
I'm all for quirks & other items too for it to be special & last 7 full years as the champ.   Just wish all that somehow covered the "we know it was heavier" quote.

Or the sensors are calibrated for a particular reading of footfall patterns to infer weight and something about LK's modifications trip them up. That would fit well with the idea that LK is running custom myomers (for easier piloting or faster rotation?) along with its electronics.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: klarg1 on 03 December 2021, 13:05:34
Or the sensors are calibrated for a particular reading of footfall patterns to infer weight and something about LK's modifications trip them up. That would fit well with the idea that LK is running custom myomers (for easier piloting or faster rotation?) along with its electronics.

I suppose it’s possible. Given the amount of text devoted exposition and internal monologues in the Warrior trilogy it seems odd that none of the three characters with access to the ‘mech seem all that interested in the technology. It also leaves the question of why Capet did so well unanswered.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Nightlord01 on 03 December 2021, 19:39:41
Were the 'mech weights stated, or was it a case of mistaken identity?  Stackpole didn't always get his 'mechs straight, especially when it came to describing Vlad Ward's "Executioner", which is clearly a Dire Wolf stat-wise  ::)  Or the difference between a Nova and a Stormcrow in another one of his stories.  For all I know, being unfamiliar with that story, he could've been actually writing a duel between an Atlas and a King Crab.

He knew the difference between a Victor and an Awesome, and in that story they were both loaded out with the correct weapons. I'm also going to write Legend Killer off as it being part of the scavenger nature of early Battletech.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 04 December 2021, 04:46:56
Also rule of cool. If you like the Rifleman, your going to write cool stories about the Rifleman.

Something I just remembered from a good while back: one of the only people I know who thinks the Rifleman is a great mech also plays without the Heat rules. Maybe Stackpole was doing the same lol.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: guardiandashi on 04 December 2021, 13:50:50
Something I just remembered from a good while back: one of the only people I know who thinks the Rifleman is a great mech also plays without the Heat rules. Maybe Stackpole was doing the same lol.

I know I built a rifleman variant with DHS and 4 large lasers that was pretty brutal
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 04 December 2021, 17:16:13
Were the 'mech weights stated, or was it a case of mistaken identity?  Stackpole didn't always get his 'mechs straight, especially when it came to describing Vlad Ward's "Executioner", which is clearly a Dire Wolf stat-wise  ::)  Or the difference between a Nova and a Stormcrow in another one of his stories.  For all I know, being unfamiliar with that story, he could've been actually writing a duel between an Atlas and a King Crab.

He knew the difference between a Victor and an Awesome, and in that story they were both loaded out with the correct weapons.

When Stackpole was writing those particular clan stories I think a lot of the rules were not even published yet.
Hell Email was barely a thing at the time the book was published.
He was probably working off some scribbled notes from 2 years earlier when they had a meeting about how to bring back in the SLDF remnants.

I think the real epic part of the Victor/Awesome story was that it was both pilots were the unit commanders or legendary guests.

IIRC the DC forces only had a company of Panthers & a lance of 55 tonners & then the CO in the Awesome.

The Hounds were only a Company of Light-Heavy weight mechs at the time w/ Sortek visiting for some reason IIRC.

So yeah the 2 assaults were the only assaults & not much bigger than some of the Kell big mechs  (Marauder, T-Bolt)..........
But it was WHO was in them that added to it.
The leaders, the legends, the biggest mechs on the battlefield, and the way they squared off into a duel v/s participating in the rest of the fight.

At least that is what I'm imagining, its honestly been years since I read the Trilogy.   I should dig it out & give it another read for old times sake.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: GRUD on 04 December 2021, 19:32:35
I suppose it’s possible. Given the amount of text devoted exposition and internal monologues in the Warrior trilogy it seems odd that none of the three characters with access to the ‘mech seem all that interested in the technology. It also leaves the question of why Capet did so well unanswered.
And I see Hellraiser has beaten me to it.  :-[  But yeah, it's hard (to the point of Impossible) for "the three characters with access to the ‘Mech" to have internal Monologues about Technology that hadn't been created for the GAME yet.  Like wondering why people in the 1800's weren't writing stories, complaining about the lack of cell phone service along the Oregon Trail so they could call for assistance.   :D
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Wrangler on 04 December 2021, 19:42:57
There was a canon rumor in the Rifleman II fluff that suggest it was part reason why Gray Noton  got where he was.  Since it resembles the Rifleman, yet its wee bit more.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 05 December 2021, 10:52:33
There was a canon rumor in the Rifleman II fluff that suggest it was part reason why Gray Noton  got where he was.  Since it resembles the Rifleman, yet its wee bit more.

Which I still hate because 1.) A reminder we NEVER seen official art of the Rifleman II so yet another tease and 2.) This was after it was established that there is a notables difference in scale between something the size of a QuickDraw and something the size of a Awesome.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 05 December 2021, 14:54:30
Yeah, the idea that a mech X tons heavier is going to be a perfect clone of the previous model visually, let alone through sheer mass and upgraded performance resulting from what those tons are spent on, is completely a non-starter.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Maingunnery on 05 December 2021, 15:00:18
Which I still hate because 1.) A reminder we NEVER seen official art of the Rifleman II so yet another tease and 2.) This was after it was established that there is a notables difference in scale between something the size of a QuickDraw and something the size of a Awesome.
On point 2, that just depends on how the 'Mechs in question are designed not all have the same density and many 'Mechs of different tonnages share components.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Alexander Knight on 05 December 2021, 15:00:57
Noton also comments that Justin almost took him down.  In a Valkyrie.  If he was piloting a SLDF-tech 80 ton machine and almost lost to a 30 ton introtech machine that relies on a LRM system for main damage...then I'd call him a pretty pathetic mechwarrior.  And we know he's not.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 05 December 2021, 15:09:13
Noton also comments that Justin almost took him down.  In a Valkyrie.  If he was piloting a SLDF-tech 80 ton machine and almost lost to a 30 ton introtech machine that relies on a LRM system for main damage...then I'd call him a pretty pathetic mechwarrior.  And we know he's not.

Except that even IF there is an 80 ton Rifleman, we don't know that that is the version that he took to the Kittery Training Battalion attack.

It could have easily been the base 3N model that he would have had based on his own monologue about having 2 mechs.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Alexander Knight on 05 December 2021, 15:29:56
Sure.  He uses the easy to notice 80 ton 'mech during televised Solaris duels, but not on a deniable operations black bag attack.

And he does this because...
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Wrangler on 05 December 2021, 15:52:45
It was suggested in the Rifleman II fluff, that there was more than one Legend-Killer.  Yet Rumor.

Sorry, to bring it up.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 05 December 2021, 15:53:52
Your the one that pointed out he admitted to Justin almost taking him down in a Valkyrie.

Who knows. 
Maybe he only uses the supped up model for those particularly difficult fights that test even his skills. 
Like those Assault Mechs he's known for winning....Stalkers, Battlemasters, & Atlases, oh my.

Hell, Maybe the mech wasn't EITHER of his & it was provided for him by the contractor that hired him....... like providing the weapons for an assassin after they arrive via commercial flight & didn't bring their own gear.

Maybe he didn't want to risk the supped up model taking damage on the black bag mission against an entire battalion of mechs, Stingers or not, live combat can go bad at any time.  Maybe he took enough to get the job done but didn't want to risk the RNG/Fate/Luck causing him to loose the 1 of a kind model or have battle damage let the secret get out that he has a 2nd mech.

Your saying he CANT have a bigger mech because he WOULD have used it & wouldn't have almost lost.
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Nothing says he MUST have used it.   
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Calfor on 05 December 2021, 16:24:15
In my opinion it’s pretty simple. Gray was fighting during the run down of the 3rd SW, prime scavenger time for tech. I find it hard to imagine, as well as implausible, the mech stables would be using brand new off the line mechs. Most were probably a hodge podge of actuators, armor plating and circuits due to having to be repaired frequently. Not to mention any structural damage which couldn’t be fixed because of lack of parts, knowledge etc. According to canon assault mechs were rare, with factories only producing a few a year of some types. I’m sure most of the Houses would contract the entire lots of assaults for the war effort. So if any did make it to the arenas they wouldn’t be in top shape. 
Gray showing up in a brand new Rifleman would have an instant advantage just in targeting alone. With his abilities, knowledge of the terrains and having a brand new mech, it doesn’t seem too wild he did so well.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Alexander Knight on 06 December 2021, 02:15:38
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Nothing says he MUST have used it.

And yet, the only "Evidence" that he had anything other than a RFL-3N is people insisting that there's NO WAY he could have won in the games like he did while using one.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 December 2021, 02:44:03
Which is speculation that shows up in officially published material, not just fan posts of forums.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Alexander Knight on 06 December 2021, 12:41:18
Which is speculation that shows up in officially published material, not just fan posts of forums.

Speculation put into the published material because of the fan posts.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 06 December 2021, 12:49:14
The Rifleman II didn't even exist when the Warrior Trilogy was written.

Gray had plot armor, that is all there is to it.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MarauderD on 06 December 2021, 13:56:48
The Rifleman II didn't even exist when the Warrior Trilogy was written.

Gray had plot armor, that is all there is to it.

Plot armor, and maybe he was the Michael Jordan of dueling on Solaris.  Think of Jordan's interviews from The Last Dance.

"He was driving an assault mech, so I took that personally...."  Rest is history.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 06 December 2021, 17:26:34
Plot armor, and maybe he was the Michael Jordan of dueling on Solaris.  Think of Jordan's interviews from The Last Dance.

"He was driving an assault mech, so I took that personally...."  Rest is history.
:toofunny:
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Iceweb on 07 December 2021, 22:55:03
Not that I'm saying this was it, but if a mech in that time frame had access to some sort of access to early prototype MASC or TSM and was moving faster than would have been expected given the size and tech base, could that have glitched the sensors tracking the foot falls enough that some tech mentioned something to someone and he leaked the theory that the mech was heavier than the size to explain it, and some people ran with it in universe? 

We do know the mynomer and stuff was customized.  Or maybe he just had a SPA (speed demon maybe?) that let him go faster?   Or maybe they copied some stuff over from a Mercury(?) that was found in a SL cache to get some bursts of speed, but it got damaged or worn out by the time it passed to another person and that is why no one ever said the LK had MASC equipped.   

I think something like that and some friend of a friend deciding it meant it was heavier than it should have been on the sensors is more likely than it actually being heavier and no one being able to notice. 

That said I would much rather be more maneuverable in a Solaris fight than increasing my weight all things equal.  Maneuver is very important, see Valk almost taking him out.   
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 08 December 2021, 02:12:18
I'm not sure how increased speed would cause sensors to think that Legend Killer was heavier than it really was.

It's not like mech sensors routinely mistook the Dragon or Quickdraw as heavier mechs.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 08 December 2021, 02:40:20
Also that's trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist in the canon.

The exact nature of the "evidence" is never stated. The idea that sensors in the arena detected something anomalous is purely fan speculation.

Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 08 December 2021, 03:15:44
Speculation put into the published material because of the fan posts.

That's what happens when there is such a large disconnect between fiction and table performance.

edit:
I don't know why "Legend Killer is a LosTech special" is more popular headcanon than "Norton is an amazing pilot" though.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: klarg1 on 08 December 2021, 07:36:08
And I see Hellraiser has beaten me to it.  :-[  But yeah, it's hard (to the point of Impossible) for "the three characters with access to the ‘Mech" to have internal Monologues about Technology that hadn't been created for the GAME yet.  Like wondering why people in the 1800's weren't writing stories, complaining about the lack of cell phone service along the Oregon Trail so they could call for assistance.   :D

Fair enough, but I didn't really mean a Star Trek style info dump on the miracle of the ER large laser. More "Holy crap is that a Star League gizmo replacing the regular old widget!? I can't lose!"

They seem much more: "Hey check it out: a Rifleman". If Legend Killer was supposed to be full of unique and secret upgrades, they sure seem pretty blase about it. I mean, we are subjected to an entire paragraph about what a big deal it was for Justin to fire his LRM5 in a non-standard way during his first fight. I doubt Stackpole could have resisted talking about how he took advantage of LK's special abilities at the end.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Wrangler on 08 December 2021, 09:26:06
Funny thing about the Rifleman II being possible hidden Legend-Killer.  We don't have actual picture of the 'Mech. For all we know it looks like in size and height, just mass is heavier fit all that Star League goodies.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Qoonpooka on 08 December 2021, 09:34:14
The Rifleman II didn't even exist when the Warrior Trilogy was written.

Gray had plot armor, that is all there is to it.

The thing about Plot Armor: people say it like it shows a lack of imagination.  People talk about how 99.99% of the time an RFL-3N just gets dumpstered.

But here's the thing about stories: The 99.99% of RFL-3Ns getting dumpstered aren't interesting. Nobody watches an RFL-3N cook its own ammo off from a heat spike and think "Huh, didn't see that coming!"

We have stories about edge cases because they're edge cases - that's what makes them interesting. That's what takes LK from a statistic to "no shit, there he was..."

"Plot Armor" is just the Survivorship Bias expressing itself in "history." Protagonists in stories are lucky/plot-armored by selection bias. The RFL-3N is a common design. Solaris VII is a big place. For every Gray there's a thousand statistics.

But consider the tale of those statistics.

Once upon a time there was a Rifleman pilot.
He got into a fight.
He died.
The end.

Cool story, bro.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 08 December 2021, 10:08:20
I don't know why "Legend Killer is a LosTech special" is more popular headcanon than "Norton is an amazing pilot" though.

Because people like to be able to replicate events in the fiction on the tabletop or at least frame them in tabletop terms(for example, this very thread), and advanced mechs are a lot easier to do than super pilots, especially before we got things like SPAs and SCAs.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 08 December 2021, 10:59:52
The thing about Plot Armor: people say it like it shows a lack of imagination.  People talk about how 99.99% of the time an RFL-3N just gets dumpstered.

But here's the thing about stories: The 99.99% of RFL-3Ns getting dumpstered aren't interesting. Nobody watches an RFL-3N cook its own ammo off from a heat spike and think "Huh, didn't see that coming!"

We have stories about edge cases because they're edge cases - that's what makes them interesting. That's what takes LK from a statistic to "no shit, there he was..."

"Plot Armor" is just the Survivorship Bias expressing itself in "history." Protagonists in stories are lucky/plot-armored by selection bias. The RFL-3N is a common design. Solaris VII is a big place. For every Gray there's a thousand statistics.

But consider the tale of those statistics.

Once upon a time there was a Rifleman pilot.
He got into a fight.
He died.
The end.

Cool story, bro.

Survivor bias might be a thing but there was no indication in the story that Norton was driving an objectively inferior mech compared to the rest of his competitors. And it wasn't a one-off case or regarded as exceptional (in the story) that his mech was a Rifleman. Norton was simply the Solaris Open Weight Champion for a record-setting length of time while driving a Rifleman, something that players (on the table) would find almost impossible to replicate. Pulp sensibilities abound in the story for sure, but they didn't extend to his ride.

Since that contradicts the table so glaringly, it forces players to interrogate the worldbuilding for an answer -- "How did Norton manage that?" "It doesn't say..." "Well, how could he have managed it?"

edit: and I just realized for the first time ever that his name is Noton, not Norton (no R).

Because people like to be able to replicate events in the fiction on the tabletop or at least frame them in tabletop terms(for example, this very thread), and advanced mechs are a lot easier to do than super pilots, especially before we got things like SPAs and SCAs.

Oh, I agree that people want to be able to replicate the stuff in fiction. Maybe my post should have been clearer about that. But I'd always thought there were provisions for super pilots back then. Didn't Piloting and Gunnery scores go into the negatives in some of the early scenario books or did that post-date the Warrior trilogy?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 08 December 2021, 11:06:40
They did, but let's be honest - it's a Rifleman. No amount of insane gunnery or piloting skill will keep one of those alive if a regular or veteran-rated pilot in a Warhammer or Marauder can score hits with any reliability, nor are you going to kill one quickly enough with a Rifleman, even if you have a 100% hit rate. That's where fancy SPAs come in.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 08 December 2021, 11:10:05
They did, but let's be honest - it's a Rifleman. No amount of insane gunnery or piloting skill will keep one of those alive if a regular or veteran-rated pilot in a Warhammer or Marauder can score hits with any reliability, nor are you going to kill one quickly enough with a Rifleman, even if you have a 100% hit rate. That's where fancy SPAs come in.

You won't find me disagreeing.

edit: Although it is darkly funny to me that if it were any other variant of the Rifleman, people wouldn't be so surprised.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 08 December 2021, 11:30:40
Funny thing about the Rifleman II being possible hidden Legend-Killer.  We don't have actual picture of the 'Mech. For all we know it looks like in size and height, just mass is heavier fit all that Star League goodies.

This is raised a lot, but it doesn't hold.  Mass by itself doesn't do anything (except in the case of giving you more internal structure points).  It has to be spent on something, and that something produces detectable, verifiable results that would be noticed.  More guns, more heat dissipation, more armour, top speed: that's all quantifiable.  It's simply impossible that nobody watching the fights for years on end failed to notice that he fired more or took way more hits or what have you.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Maingunnery on 08 December 2021, 12:21:06
This is raised a lot, but it doesn't hold.  Mass by itself doesn't do anything (except in the case of giving you more internal structure points).  It has to be spent on something, and that something produces detectable, verifiable results that would be noticed.  More guns, more heat dissipation, more armour, top speed: that's all quantifiable.  It's simply impossible that nobody watching the fights for years on end failed to notice that he fired more or took way more hits or what have you.
Not exactly, it could use the same guns, the heat levels could be faked, the top speed doesn't need to be altered.
The improved toughness is likely the most noticeable thing (after the tonnage) but Solaris doesn't seem to be the most healthiest place to ask many questions....
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 08 December 2021, 13:09:52
Not exactly, it could use the same guns, the heat levels could be faked, the top speed doesn't need to be altered.
The improved toughness is likely the most noticeable thing (after the tonnage) but Solaris doesn't seem to be the most healthiest place to ask many questions....

Heat levels can't be faked: heat output is measurable and is in fact watched for during matches as it makes for good commentary.  While there's no cause to specifically use seismic scanners in open matches, it's pretty amazing that he never came across a set in a match, especially once rumours started that maybe there was something about his mech.  Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".

If someone in a professional sporting event performs far in excess of expectations, "not asking questions" is the precise opposite of what happens.  Scrutiny doubles, because people want to know what's going on, one part for legalities (are they cheating--somewhat less important in this case, where the open circuit seems to have few rules) and one part financial (how do I know where to put my money).  Solaris is anything but a live-and-let-live environment.  Not asking questions doesn't hold in a place where vast fortunes are at stake and billions are watching for years at a time.  It's the single-most scrutinized combat venue in the Inner Sphere.

The superweight mech argument presupposes that half the Inner Sphere is blind (including everyone who ever seems to have driven it), sensors don't work, and every possible lucky break in terms of avoiding detection came down on Noton's side for years at a time.  There's a good reason I think why the rumours have only been rumours and unstated "evidence": as soon as you actually say "it was this specifically" it can easily be shown not to hold.  There's no standard advantage given by existing TechManual-type gear that can't be measured, Solaris has the most rigorous measuring capability in existence, and Noton fought for years in that environment.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 08 December 2021, 13:23:57
... this is the same universe that had Cassie Suthorn take down a Wolverine on foot and unarmed, I find the idea Grey Noton dodging fire like Morgan Kell and getting a lucky shot on a assault mech like Star Captain Joanna far more likely in the world of BTU fiction than the idea Grey Noton was piloting a mech that was not even created by writers until years later that has the same mass as a Awesome or Zeus, more advance than anything on the battlefield at that time but mistaken for a very common mech thats only 5 tons heavier than a Shadowhawk... or maybe I can convince people my Stalker STK-3FB is actually a Catapult CPLT-C1.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Maingunnery on 08 December 2021, 13:50:34
Heat levels can't be faked: heat output is measurable and is in fact watched for during matches: it makes for good commentary.
What is so difficult in deliberately putting out more heat?

Quote
While there's no cause to specifically use seismic scanners in open matches, it's pretty amazing that he never came across a set and tripped it, especially once rumours started that maybe there was something about his mech.  Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".
Mechs have a lot of empty space so extra armor does not need to change the silhouette.

Quote
If someone in a professional sporting event performs far in excess of expectations, "not asking questions" is the precise opposite of what happens.  Scrutiny doubles, because people want to know what's going on, one part for legalities (are they cheating--somewhat less important in this case, where the open circuit seems to have few rules) and one part financial (how do I know where to put my money).  Solaris is anything but a live-and-let-live environment.  Not asking questions doesn't hold in a place where vast fortunes are at stake and billions are watching for years at a time.  It's the single-most scrutinized combat venue in the Inner Sphere.
Like with most professional sports that involve large amount of gambling, there is a facade of fair play, but as far as the people in charge are concerned the gambler is just there to be milked. The known diversity of customization and maintenance quality just makes it even more easy to get away with manipulating matches.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 December 2021, 13:54:47
Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".

WELL . . . the mass to volume ratio for most mechs is way off, like the chocolate bunny you think is solid but has a huge void in the center.

BUT aside from that . . . yeah, the easiest answer is the right one.  Noton had a few tweaks for his Rifleman, but was that good to survive- and unlike a lot of other folks, walked away when he was on top.  It is like the rabid fans who always insist their team was robbed rather than realizing *coughOkStatecough* their running back was actually inches short of the goal line as can obviously be seen with the pylon-cam.

Now the refs did absolutely rob Mangino and Kansas in 2004.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 08 December 2021, 15:09:47
What is so difficult in deliberately putting out more heat?

Again, you need to consider specific scenarios.  It's either consistently less heat (because of double heat sinks) or markedly more heat at specific times (because of advanced weaponry).  Those are both specific usage cases that are measurable and would be identified almost instantly.  You could argue that there was a balanced scenario (higher heat weapons but the mech is set up so that it's perfectly compensated for by double heat sinks and so manages to look like a Rifleman thermally in terms of general combat performance) but all such weapons have their own measurable effects separate from heat (rate of fire, range, damage, basic appearance of the shot) and are again detectable.

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Mechs have a lot of empty space so extra armor does not need to change the silhouette.

That's not true.  There's no literal tons of just empty void sitting inside every mech waiting to be stuffed with whatever but that people never bother with for some unknown reason, that can also then be filled with slabs of armour plating with no change on movement, visual profile, or any other detectable criteria (let alone the raw ability to take damage, like shrugging off an AC 20 or some other measure of known damage that centuries of combat has taught us a Rifleman can't absorb).  I mean, yes, the mass to volume ratio on mechs is ridiculous, which is simply a failure of the original game designers because they were just making a game with giant robots (already an absurd premise).  Lore stating that much of the materials used in mech construction is high volume, low weight helps address this, but the ultimate answer is not "every mech is built contrary to all known principles of war machine design with vast hollow spaces waiting to be filled with caramel nougat or whatever".

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Like with most professional sports that involve large amount of gambling, there is a facade of fair play, but as far as the people in charge are concerned the gambler is just there to be milked. The known diversity of customization and maintenance quality just makes it even more easy to get away with manipulating matches.

Leaving aside that I don't believe there's any canon basis for this, sport owners don't profit off gambling in any well-regulated sport; they're actually forbidden from doing so because it's an obvious conflict of interest and make their money off the matches themselves.  Doubtless there's corruption, the occasional thrown fight, and so on, but rigging matches all the time kills interest in your sport.  In any case, I'm not sure how that actually addresses anything I said with regards to observation and measurement of concrete effects (by fans and gamblers alike) and their effects on matches.  Again, going from generalities to specifics, we can't address the many absurdities of the secret Noton supermech argument by adding "vast conspiracy to fool billions of observers that took place over years and dozens of matches in many different arenas against many different opponents featuring the most famous and scrutinized fighter in the league".  Who is manipulating all these matches, how are they getting away with it every time (and there's ever so many times), and why do we have no proof of its existence?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Maingunnery on 08 December 2021, 15:41:50
Again, you need to consider specific scenarios.  It's either consistently less heat (because of double heat sinks) or markedly more heat at specific times (because of advanced weaponry).  Those are both specific usage cases that are measurable and would be identified almost instantly.  You could argue that there was a balanced scenario (higher heat weapons but the mech is set up so that it's perfectly compensated for by double heat sinks and so manages to look like a Rifleman thermally in terms of general combat performance) but all such weapons have their own measurable effects separate from heat (rate of fire, range, damage, basic appearance of the shot) and are again detectable.
So you are assuming hotter weapons?


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That's not true.  There's no literal tons of just empty void sitting inside every mech waiting to be stuffed with whatever but that people never bother with for some unknown reason, that can also then be filled with slabs of armour plating with no change on movement, visual profile, or any other detectable criteria (let alone the raw ability to take damage, like shrugging off an AC 20 or some other measure of known damage that centuries of combat has taught us a Rifleman can't absorb).  I mean, yes, the mass to volume ratio on mechs is ridiculous, which is simply a failure of the original game designers because they were just making a game with giant robots (already an absurd premise).  Lore stating that much of the materials used in mech construction is high volume, low weight helps address this, but the ultimate answer is not "every mech is built contrary to all known principles of war machine design with vast hollow spaces waiting to be filled with caramel nougat or whatever".
Armor isn't some giant piece of equipment, it is in general a layer, making it thicker on the inside shouldn't be a problem.

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Leaving aside that I don't believe there's any canon basis for this, sport owners don't profit off gambling in any well-regulated sport; they're actually forbidden from doing so because it's an obvious conflict of interest and make their money off the matches themselves.  Doubtless there's corruption, the occasional thrown fight, and so on, but rigging matches all the time kills interest in your sport.  In any case, I'm not sure how that actually addresses anything I said with regards to observation and measurement of concrete effects (by fans and gamblers alike) and their effects on matches.
Fans and gamblers carrying large equipment.... that is just not going to happen, that is just asking for obvious cheating.

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Again, going from generalities to specifics, we can't address the many absurdities of the secret Noton supermech argument by adding "vast conspiracy to fool billions of observers that took place over years and dozens of matches in many different arenas against many different opponents featuring the most famous and scrutinized fighter in the league".  Who is manipulating all these matches, how are they getting away with it every time (and there's ever so many times), and why do we have no proof of its existence?
Human nature and economy will insure that there will be somebody there to extract more money, be it a mafia or the sports leaders themselves. Also they wouldn't need to rigging matches all the time just a couple of fixes can give the maximum bang-for-buck.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 08 December 2021, 16:10:38
Heat levels can't be faked: heat output is measurable and is in fact watched for during matches as it makes for good commentary.  While there's no cause to specifically use seismic scanners in open matches, it's pretty amazing that he never came across a set in a match, especially once rumours started that maybe there was something about his mech.  Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".

Not to mention that when the Rifleman takes an AC20 round from an Atlas to the right arm and there's still armor left, people are going to stand up and notice.  There are enough people who know how much armor a Rifleman has on its arms and know that it absolutely can't take a direct hit there without coming close to outright losing the limb.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 08 December 2021, 16:27:36
So you are assuming hotter weapons?

You brought up heat, so yes, I was (along with its dissipation).  If you were talking about some other notable source of heat that would have any effect on our scenario I'd be curious to hear it.

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Armor isn't some giant piece of equipment, it is in general a layer, making it thicker on the inside shouldn't be a problem.


I already addressed this: this isn't how war machines in general or battlemechs in specific work.  And it is some giant piece of equipment, if you're talking enough to be the key to Noton's long-term success.  And again, there's no evidence for this, either in terms of general references of specifics in terms of battlefield endurance and weight detection.  As Ogre mention, all armour does is let you shrug off more damage, but that itself is detectable, and so overall the armour scenario just creates several more problems to address the one problem.

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Fans and gamblers carrying large equipment.... that is just not going to happen, that is just asking for obvious cheating.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here; I didn't mention any equipment carried by spectators, the vast majority of whom would be offworld watching feeds rather than live.

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Human nature and economy will insure that there will be somebody there to extract more money, be it a mafia or the sports leaders themselves. Also they wouldn't need to rigging matches all the time just a couple of fixes can give the maximum bang-for-buck.

If we're only talking about a few matches--and yet again, ignoring that we have no evidence for this--that no longer explains Noton's success.  He has to fight fair most of the time, and then how does he get away with it without the crutch of whomever is fixing these victories for him?  We're trying to explain the key to his continual, long-term success, not posit on how it might be possible to fix the occasional match.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 08 December 2021, 19:09:03
And no amount of speculation on Noton's success in a rifleman explains Philip Capet's success in a rifleman.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: klarg1 on 08 December 2021, 23:07:43
They did, but let's be honest - it's a Rifleman. No amount of insane gunnery or piloting skill will keep one of those alive if a regular or veteran-rated pilot in a Warhammer or Marauder can score hits with any reliability, nor are you going to kill one quickly enough with a Rifleman, even if you have a 100% hit rate. That's where fancy SPAs come in.

I am 100% behind throwing SPAs and maybe a couple of positive quirks at the problem.

It’s advanced tech and increased weight class solutions that don’t sit right with me. Do people get this worked up over the magical exploits of Grayson Carlyle’s Shadowhawk?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 08 December 2021, 23:16:08
It’s advanced tech and increased weight class solutions that don’t sit right with me. Do people get this worked up over the magical exploits of Grayson Carlyle’s Shadowhawk?

Yes, but usually it's chalked up to bad writing.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 09 December 2021, 01:53:20
And no amount of speculation on Noton's success in a rifleman explains Philip Capet's success in a rifleman.
yep.

given the first hand looks we got, i'd guess that most of the pilots in the big leagues of solaris durign the succession wars pilot mediums and heavies.. and references to the use of assaults by champions reflect not their standard mechs but rather their rides during their final championship matches.. which are prone to increased showmanship and special arrangements by sponsors and stables.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 09 December 2021, 02:04:07
Keep in mind that Noton had his record-setting string of championships during the technologically regressed late Third Succession War period.  Another factor that affected the matches during this era was that the Battle Commission was notoriously corrupt - fixing matches and helping organized crime launder money through gambling receipts. 

So, we have many possible routes to his exceptional performance:

1) Normal Rifleman, but he has a list of SPAs as long as Jaime Wolf's
2) Tricked out Rifleman with LosTech that doesn't change the mass, but might include superior actuators, targeting system jammers, double heat sinks, or other tech that gives the pilot an edge by filling up more of the critical slots.
3) Normal Rifleman, but Noton's mob connections were instrumental in securing his victories
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: StCptMara on 09 December 2021, 02:55:08
Does anyone else remember the old Solaris VII boxed set rules?
Could the delay system explain the superiority of a Rifleman's weapon loadout against other 'Mechs? I remember
that it made machine guns insanely powerful because they had a delay of 0, and so could be fired every turn. If a Rifleman could fire the ACs more often than an Atlas' AC/20, that could explain a lot.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: klarg1 on 09 December 2021, 08:10:20
Does anyone else remember the old Solaris VII boxed set rules?
Could the delay system explain the superiority of a Rifleman's weapon loadout against other 'Mechs? I remember
that it made machine guns insanely powerful because they had a delay of 0, and so could be fired every turn. If a Rifleman could fire the ACs more often than an Atlas' AC/20, that could explain a lot.

Not really. They would have significantly magnified both the heat issues of the large lasers and the minimum range penalties of the autocannons. I think AC5 might have had a good ROF, but not nearly as good as the machine gun.

You could cook up custom rules which shave off some heat or shorten the minimums. That would go a long way towards giving an advantage.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: RifleMech on 10 December 2021, 02:01:31
I think it is possible to disguise am 80 ton mech as a 60 ton one.

FF Armor's bulk is internal. The Thorn has enough internal space that tech can climb into the limbs to work on it. After many years of fighting, armor is going to be so patched it may not look "stock" any more. Add in cosmetics and glancing blows and it could be that Noton's Rifleman had more armor.

Energy weapons can dial down their heat. That also dials down their damage but it doesn't effect the range. "Lucky"  long range shots would wear down armor and additional heat sinks would cover for the increased heat when the dial is turned up up close.

Autocannon sizes are all over the place. Add in cosmetics and an AC/10 could look like an AC/5. Improved targeting helps with loss of range and heavier hits can be put down as direct blows. More heat sinks would also mask the heavier heat. The larger size of the mech would also grant more ammo so the number of shots remain the same.

There's also customization. If the cockpit systems were customized out of different mechs. There's also something different about the myomers used. So why couldn't other systems be customized as well? Look at all the quirks that weapons can have. Maybe he was using a custom weapon made to look stock? It could just be a special type of armor. Some armor types are fluffed to be better than others. Unless it's analyzed, how would anyone know it isn't stock armor?

Also how much tech was created on Solaris VII? Any LosTech included in Noton's Riflemech, could have been limited to his Riflemech. There could be something special about the myomer that has a special effect with a hidden command. It could be an ECM that played with sensors making his mech seem lighter. It could be anything or nothing. Noton isn't talking and his techs aren't talking.

I'm not saying the Rifleman was 80 tons. Just that it is technologically possible. It's also possible that the Rifleman was 60 tons and still completely customized. It's also possible that Noton was just that good. Personally, I think its a mix of being that good and some customization.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 December 2021, 02:07:27
One of the justifications for many of the Project Phoenix designs, as well as the AS-7K2 Atlas, is that using Ferro-Fibrous armor instead of standard plate does visibly change the exterior look because FF armor can't be shaped as easily.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 10 December 2021, 03:48:26
Does anyone else remember the old Solaris VII boxed set rules?
Could the delay system explain the superiority of a Rifleman's weapon loadout against other 'Mechs? I remember
that it made machine guns insanely powerful because they had a delay of 0, and so could be fired every turn. If a Rifleman could fire the ACs more often than an Atlas' AC/20, that could explain a lot.

Someone made a post starring the Rifleman under S7 rules:
Every S7 turn is 1/4 of a BattleTech turn; the number of heatsinks stays the same and the work the same (i.e. -1 Heat per Single HS/Turn). So my lovely Rifleman fires an AC/5 (+8 Heat) and runs (+2 Heat) and at the end of the turn I shed 10 heat.  So far, I've been running and gunning for 2.5 seconds.  So, in true Dunkirk-style, by the time my BattleTech self catches up to me, I still get to do three more things. 

Next turn (looking towards halfway through a BattleTech turn), I'm feeling froggy, so I'll unload a heavy laser and come to a bloody halt.  At present, I'm at null on the heat scale. I jack myself up 32 points on the heat scale and immediately explode.  Wait, now my heat scale goes up to 120.  And I get to deduct 10 heat for my fabulous, Sphere-renowned cooling system.  So I end the turn with +22 on the heat-scale.

Now into Turn 3 (3/4 of the way through a BattleTech turn), I'm a bit slower (-1 MP; just look at the standard heat scale and multiply everything by 4; that is literally all it is), but still happy I'm driving a Kallon original and not some Red Devil knockoff piece of trash. I figure, Hell, why not? and light off two medium lasers at my buddy leering at me from the other side of the arena as I backpedal.  That adds +25 Heat (2 Medium Lasersx12+1 Walking).  Now I am looking toasty with (22+25)-10 Heat, leaving me at +37 on the scale.

Now, on Turn 4, I'm slower -1 MP), and more dull-witted (+1 THM) than I was before.  But because I got it like that, my opponent in his Archer wants to take a breather too. So, on Turn 4, we rest.  By the end of it, I'll be back down to +27 on the heat-scale.

In BattleTech-scale, I've moved just about 3 hexes total (two forward, one back) and fired an AC/5, a Large Laser, and two Medium Lasers. to be charitable, we'll say I've Walked as well.  When two souls become one, I would have generated +17 heat, -10 HS, for a total of 7 heat on the heat-scale. Sound familiar?


In other words, this is all the same thing, just hyperdetailed. Energy weapons aren't nerfed, nothing is broken that already wasn't in standard BattleTech rules (because **they are the same rules**) and the God Mode machine gun reaches out to 12 hexes (at their longest, +5 THM range) which is a +0 or +1 THM for nearly every other weapon in the game.

I get that hearing "Your Warhammer just built up 80 heat for firing its two PPCs" can be mildly disconcerting.  The smart MechWarrior will then spend some time evading and setting up some advantageous physical altercation instead of getting silly and keep driving it ever upwards.  Because after three more S7 turns (four, total), you'll only have +8 Heat on the 'Scale, just as you would have +2 in BattleTech.

The Heat Scale is there to be ridden like a roller coaster, not feared like a wild mustang. It's a tool like anything else in this game.

It was a bit better because of the refire rules but not really dominant or anything.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Iceweb on 10 December 2021, 13:13:36
I'm not sure how increased speed would cause sensors to think that Legend Killer was heavier than it really was.

It's not like mech sensors routinely mistook the Dragon or Quickdraw as heavier mechs.

Again I didn't say the sensors mistook it for heavier, just that they noticed something non standard for a stock rifleman (aka faster speed) 
then the Tech watching it said out loud "Huh that's weird something on the sensor is off." 
The Tech's boss asked him what is off? And the Tech responded "I dunno maybe the sensor is glitching, or it's moving faster, or it could be heavier than it should be but that last one makes no sense, boss." 

Another guy in the room hears It could be heavier than it should be, and mentioned it to his drinking buddies at the bar the next night, leaving out the rest of the details.  His drinking buddies get all excited about it and press for details, that he expands on through bad memory and drunken exaggerations.  The drinking buddies take it as gospel and you have a viral rumor spreading through the fans that someone in the know said the sensors told them this Mech was heavier than it should have been and LK was cheating. 

None of it is true but it explains the in universe rumor.   It could even have just been a glitch in the sensor and the LK never even moved faster.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: RifleMech on 11 December 2021, 03:17:00
One of the justifications for many of the Project Phoenix designs, as well as the AS-7K2 Atlas, is that using Ferro-Fibrous armor instead of standard plate does visibly change the exterior look because FF armor can't be shaped as easily.

Which doesn't hold up to well when comparing the looks of 3025/3039 mechs and those of 3050/2750 mechs. It also doesn't change the facts that armor bulk can be internal and constantly patching armor is going to result in a different appearance so it could get disguised that way.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 11 December 2021, 03:47:31
Solaris duelists are notorious for adding cosmetic modifications like spikes, etc. for greater crowd appeal.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 11 December 2021, 16:29:21
It also doesn't change the facts that armor bulk can be internal and constantly patching armor is going to result in a different appearance so it could get disguised that way.

The bulk of advanced armours is depicted as internal on the game mechanics side, because external bulk is not measured in the game.  That doesn't mean mech manufacturers are just leaving pointless empty voids on their designs that waste money and make them bigger targets so that people who feel like making informal modification to their machines in the field might have an easier time of it, just as no war machine manufacturer does that today.  But even if they did do something that illogical, that's still ignoring the "how does no one notice when the Rifleman endures damage no Rifleman can endure" part.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Maingunnery on 11 December 2021, 17:28:22
The bulk of advanced armours is depicted as internal on the game mechanics side, because external bulk is not measured in the game.  That doesn't mean mech manufacturers are just leaving pointless empty voids on their designs that waste money and make them bigger targets so that people who feel like making informal modification to their machines in the field might have an easier time of it, just as no war machine manufacturer does that today.
Actually that isn't true, even in real-life tight armor not only makes it more difficult to modify/update the designs but also makes the armor shape more complex and difficult to manufacture/repair. 

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But even if they did do something that illogical, that's still ignoring the "how does no one notice when the Rifleman endures damage no Rifleman can endure" part.
There is quite a bit of plausible deniability, lots of customization at the arenas, glancing hits, poorly maintained enemy weapons, etc. Also the audience would mostly love the spectacle.   
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 11 December 2021, 17:34:37
There is quite a bit of plausible deniability, lots of customization at the arenas, glancing hits, poorly maintained enemy weapons, etc. Also the audience would mostly love the spectacle.
Are you considering the arm-chair generals, rivet counters, and actual experts in the audience? People WILL notice the difference and there isn't enough plausible deniability out there to explain it all away.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Maingunnery on 11 December 2021, 17:52:04
Are you considering the arm-chair generals, rivet counters, and actual experts in the audience?
Those will speculate even with completely normal matches, might even go full ancient aliens....
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 December 2021, 18:18:30
But these are sporting events where every second is covered by multiple cameras from different angles that offer slo-mo instant replay.  And things like Glancing Blows will be a known factor, not an optional rule that most fights don't use.

You might be able to get away with slapping extra armor onto a Rifleman without anyone figuring out for a fight, maybe even fight fights.  You're not going to do so for 20 fights and definitely not for 100.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: klarg1 on 11 December 2021, 18:41:35
Are you considering the arm-chair generals, rivet counters, and actual experts in the audience? People WILL notice the difference and there isn't enough plausible deniability out there to explain it all away.

Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 December 2021, 19:34:39
Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.
and the bookies, and the crime bosses. remember that one of the favorite ways for the criminal element on solaris to pay people under the table is to take bets on "sure thing" fights and give the ticket to the person. (especially if the fight is one they themselves rigged to ensure the 'right' person won)
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 11 December 2021, 22:50:01
Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.
Specifically, the techs monitoring the seismic sensors throughout the arenas.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: RifleMech on 11 December 2021, 22:50:40
The bulk of advanced armours is depicted as internal on the game mechanics side, because external bulk is not measured in the game.  That doesn't mean mech manufacturers are just leaving pointless empty voids on their designs that waste money and make them bigger targets so that people who feel like making informal modification to their machines in the field might have an easier time of it, just as no war machine manufacturer does that today.  But even if they did do something that illogical, that's still ignoring the "how does no one notice when the Rifleman endures damage no Rifleman can endure" part.

I agree. That doesn't mean that there aren't spaces they could take advantage of. It also doesn't mean that armor can't be carefully placed to look like another variant. It was done on a LAM. Also the mech was repaired how many times? It isn't likely to look completely factory new without visiting the factory.

As for damage, there's glancing blows, poorly maintained weapons, poor ammo quality, and other shenanigans that could result in a Rifleman shrugging off AC/20 hits.


Those will speculate even with completely normal matches, might even go full ancient aliens....

That's it! It was aliens!
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 19 December 2021, 22:26:15
Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.

Devil's advocate....... Maybe it was those folks that noticed the differences in the first place?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: arachneo on 20 December 2021, 01:30:05
Devil's advocate....... Maybe it was those folks that noticed the differences in the first place?

And here comes the Noton's public relations: "Nothing to say, there are only aesthetic changes".
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Frabby on 20 December 2021, 06:16:26
Most of what I could say is in the Sarna article so I'll not repeat it here.

We know for a fact that Noton
1) won at least his first championship in a stock RFL-3N (though that doesn't say anything about the neurohelmet)...
2) ...yet at the same time thought about his other Rifleman with which, according to Noton's own inner monologue, he was going to rule over Solaris VII. It's not explained how the other Rifleman is tied to that idea, but the implication is clearly that this other Rifleman is somehow a superior machine.

As has been pointed out, if there was a souped-up Legend Killer then it was likely a hangar queen - and thus certainly not the 'Mech Noton, an expert pilot of stock Riflemans as much as modified or advanced models, would have taken for missions like the Cicada strike where he met Justin Xiang Allard. We know from his first championship run that Noton can win in stock RFL-3Ns.

Noton only ever fought in the open class where anything goes. Not sure if there were really any sensors to determine the mass of his 'Mech. In the open class, that simply isn't relevant information that has to be divulged. I mean, if you can get away with a Star League era neurohelmet with extra frills without having to register that then any modifications to the 'Mech itself would also have been okay.

Ultimately, I like the Legends explanation very much as it adds a new venue to explain Noton's track record. But it does not disspell the possibility that he had at least one if not several modified 'Mechs that looked like regular RFL-3Ns but were much more advanced and/or modified, maybe even with a higher tonnage.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 20 December 2021, 06:39:12
Duke Hasek's pet Capellan March investigators, as part of the effort to smear Justin Allard, claimed that analysis of the autocannon shells indicated Justin was facing only an UrbanMech.

'Twould be hilarious if Noton was, in fact, piloting an UrbanMech cosmetically modified to look like a Rifleman in the field.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 20 December 2021, 11:25:43
Duke Hasek's pet Capellan March investigators, as part of the effort to smear Justin Allard, claimed that analysis of the autocannon shells indicated Justin was facing only an UrbanMech.

Pretty sure it's near-universally accepted by us fans outside the setting that this report was a complete lie.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 20 December 2021, 11:41:40
That inner monologue was from MWO to sell the Hero Mech. All those short stories seem to only tease fan theories like the Bounty Hunter piloting a Warhammer, a thing we can not find in any other piece of fiction.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Luciora on 20 December 2021, 12:29:39
I take anything from MWO with the caveat that, they use canon names, but thats it, everything else they mention is apocryphal at best. 
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 20 December 2021, 13:25:08
Duke Hasek's pet Capellan March investigators, as part of the effort to smear Justin Allard, claimed that analysis of the autocannon shells indicated Justin was facing only an UrbanMech.

I don't recall any "analysis of the AC shells" themselves.

They said the Val's damage markings were caused by AC rounds & Laser burns.  (AKA, No missile damage)

And the Lightest mech w/ an AC & Laser is the Urbie so they claimed he was lying & that it was far more likely as a Rifleman should have Killed Allard outright & not had to retreat leaving him alive or something to that effect.

Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 20 December 2021, 13:25:40
Duke Hasek's pet Capellan March investigators, as part of the effort to smear Justin Allard, claimed that analysis of the autocannon shells indicated Justin was facing only an UrbanMech.

'Twould be hilarious if Noton was, in fact, piloting an UrbanMech cosmetically modified to look like a Rifleman in the field.

Even in the book, it was made clear that it took enough damage to level an UrbanMech:
"But I know he's innocent, Colonel Sortek, and when I return to Kittery, I'll get the evidence to prove it. His Val was empty of LRMs after the battle. No UrbanMech could have survived that barrage. It had to have been a Rifleman."
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Jal Phoenix on 20 December 2021, 14:39:35
I have always believed that Legend Killer was a normal Rifleman, and Gray Noton was just that good.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 20 December 2021, 14:56:23
I don't recall any "analysis of the AC shells" themselves.

They said the Val's damage markings were caused by AC rounds & Laser burns.  (AKA, No missile damage)

And the Lightest mech w/ an AC & Laser is the Urbie so they claimed he was lying & that it was far more likely as a Rifleman should have Killed Allard outright & not had to retreat leaving him alive or something to that effect.

I remember there being something about the caliber of shell casings found.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Frabby on 20 December 2021, 16:46:33
I take anything from MWO with the caveat that, they use canon names, but thats it, everything else they mention is apocryphal at best.
Randall Bills, with Line Developer hat on, straight up declared it canon for mainline (boardgame) BattleTech, through a general ruling to that effect regarding the fluff for all MWO Hero 'Mechs. He also happens to be the author of that fiction piece (and most, if not all, Hero Mech fluff).
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 20 December 2021, 17:26:14
Randall Bills, with Line Developer hat on, straight up declared it canon for mainline (boardgame) BattleTech, through a general ruling to that effect regarding the fluff for all MWO Hero 'Mechs. He also happens to be the author of that fiction piece (and most, if not all, Hero Mech fluff).
Then I'll ask you what I asked him on this forum: Where is my Spirit Bear!?

It was a cross promotion, I get it but there is no other fiction proclaiming Grey had Endo Steel and LB-10X Auto Cannon and no one else from TPTB has made that statement since
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Weirdo on 20 December 2021, 18:07:53
That inner monologue was from MWO to sell the Hero Mech. All those short stories seem to only tease fan theories like the Bounty Hunter piloting a Warhammer, a thing we can not find in any other piece of fiction.

What are you talking about? I thought we had multiple sources putting him in a Warhammer before he shot Kerensky out of her Marauder, took it for his own, and made it famous.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 20 December 2021, 18:35:07
What are you talking about? I thought we had multiple sources putting him in a Warhammer before he shot Kerensky out of her Marauder, took it for his own, and made it famous.
He was in a Griffin when ambushing Natasha. Earlier versions of the hunter rode a Warhammer, and a new 3150's version.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Luciora on 20 December 2021, 19:25:13
I've been proven wrong many times, and I accept the corrections  :)

I usually just get nitpicky about mech stats, as many of MWO's hero mechs, for the original chassis like the Zeus and Commando usually don't match the time frame of the canon pilot and mech in the game.  Unless I can verify in a official print source from CGL. 

Thats my only real complaint about the canonical information from MWO.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 20 December 2021, 19:53:01
What are you talking about? I thought we had multiple sources putting him in a Warhammer before he shot Kerensky out of her Marauder, took it for his own, and made it famous.

While Natasha took the Warhammer and made it her own.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 20 December 2021, 20:07:39
While Natasha took the Warhammer and made it her own.
Fan creation. Never happened.

Quote from: Wolf's Dragoons (sourcebook), p. 124
The Hunter himself was in his Griffin, dragging away my Marauder, which had sustained serious,  but not irreparable damage.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 20 December 2021, 20:54:32
Really?  Because i thought the canon explanation for Natasha's Warhammer was that she and the Bounty Hunter ended up trading mechs.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: mikecj on 21 December 2021, 00:33:06
Kerensky lived through the ordeal and vowed to exact vengeance (some even say she somehow got her hands on his Warhammer and began to use that as her trademark ’Mech).

Interstellar Players p85
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 21 December 2021, 00:52:59
Kerensky lived through the ordeal and vowed to exact vengeance (some even say she somehow got her hands on his Warhammer and began to use that as her trademark ’Mech).

Interstellar Players p85

Isn't the whole IP series supposed to be in-canon rumors?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 21 December 2021, 01:29:28
Isn't the whole IP series supposed to be in-canon rumors?

Yes, but I think they point they are making above is that its a WRITTEN rumor in a book, v/s something that is truly "player made up" like was mentioned above.

Similar to my point way up thread about the weight of LK.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Wrangler on 21 December 2021, 07:34:04
I have always believed that Legend Killer was a normal Rifleman, and Gray Noton was just that good.
I have to agree if it's coming from angle of the original Canon.  The guy was clever fellow just like Justin was. 
He used dirty tricks in order to make up for disadvantage, not that he not skilled.

Justin walked in with Rifleman walking in backwards, just throw his enemy off and then present fresh armor after flipping arms.  No one would thought someone would do that.   Gray properly did similar things, including taking heavy mech to a light mech flight like on Kittery.  Akin Wolf to a sheep field.  If you can't win with force, you win smart even if it's dirty.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 21 December 2021, 11:17:36
Really?  Because i thought the canon explanation for Natasha's Warhammer was that she and the Bounty Hunter ended up trading mechs.
In the 3025 era, do you really think the Bounty Hunter would leave a perfectly functional 'Mech behind?


Yes, but I think they point they are making above is that its a WRITTEN rumor in a book, v/s something that is truly "player made up" like was mentioned above.
That "swap" story was pure fan creation that was turned into canon rumor. It has been going around since long before the IP series.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 December 2021, 11:39:23
In the 3025 era, do you really think the Bounty Hunter would leave a perfectly functional 'Mech behind?

That "swap" story was pure fan creation that was turned into canon rumor. It has been going around since long before the IP series.

It was more like . . .

Bounty Hunter used a Warhammer in that period.
Bounty Hunter took Natasha's Marauder.
Natasha swore revenge.
Natasha's replacement ride is a Warhammer.
Did Natasha get revenge by locating where the Bounty Hunter stored some of his alternate/group mechs and stealing his Warhammer?

To be fair, it would not just be a fan rumor- you would have intel agencies wondering it.  Did she manage to track him down?  did she find one of his caches/havens?  what did she learn about him?  Intel analysis is all about solving a puzzle and you never know where the key piece you need to make the complete picture is going to come from.  They would investigate it because there might have been some information that Natasha would not recognize that would solve say the Bounty Hunter puzzle that the MASK, SAFE, LIC or whoever was trying to put together.

Besides, is there a better way for her to taunt him into facing her again?

"I stole your mech.  Come and get it mike foxtrot."
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 21 December 2021, 12:16:56
That "swap" story was pure fan creation that was turned into canon rumor. It has been going around since long before the IP series.
Long before the IP Series?   IP has been around quite a while.
I'd be curious to know when the first documented source that the BH had both a Warhammer & a Griffin in the 3010-ish timeframe was.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 21 December 2021, 13:13:07
Natasha swore revenge.
Natasha's replacement ride is a Warhammer.
Did Natasha get revenge by locating where the Bounty Hunter stored some of his alternate/group mechs and stealing his Warhammer?

Long before the IP Series?   IP has been around quite a while.
I'd be curious to know when the first documented source that the BH had both a Warhammer & a Griffin in the 3010-ish timeframe was.

There is no documentation of him having a Warhammer in that time-frame that I am aware of. As I stated earlier, previous iterations piloted one, but not this guy. IP was published in 2005. I remember reading this rumor in the RGM days in the mid 90's. It is VERY easy to see how fans drew this conclusion, what with Wolves on the Border having the Dragoons give a ride to the BH and him not appearing again until Michi wore the suit. Add the recollection of earlier BH's Warhammers to the soup, and there you go.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 21 December 2021, 13:44:46
[2005] Interstellar Players - Bounty Hunter - "Stories of the Bounty Hunter begin in the 2920s, when a masked individual piloting a green Warhammer gained some notoriety by hunting down rogue MechWarriors with prices on their heads.  The man with the green Warhammer disappeared from public view after collecting the El Giza bounties.  Three decades later, in 2957, a man in either an environment suit or a full Star League-era MechWarrior combat suit, piloting a green Warhammer, appeared and claimed the bounties on a group of pirates that had been preying on worlds in the Principality of Regulus.  Not even the Bounty Hunter's own 'Mech remained a constant - at times he piloted the Warhammer, while at other times he rode a Grasshopper or even a Griffin."

[2012] BattleTech Dossier: The Bounty Hunter p. 5 - "Some say Kerensky acquired the Bounty Hunter's Warhammer that day, despite being left for dead by the treacherous Hunter."

[2020] Legends, p. 55: "The initial 'Mechs of choice for the Bounty Hunter of the late Third Succession War alternated between a Warhammer and a Griffin."
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 21 December 2021, 13:58:12
[2020] Legends, p. 55: "The initial 'Mechs of choice for the Bounty Hunter of the late Third Succession War alternated between a Warhammer and a Griffin."
That is new info, for sure. Still doesn't cover the ambush incident in the dossier, as he was piloting a Griffin. And Kerensky was already piloting a Warhammer before all subsequent confrontations. Also prior to the Dragoons' taxi service off of Benet III.

It just didn't happen, unless a writer adds it to canon in the future.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Jal Phoenix on 21 December 2021, 14:03:20
There is no documentation of him having a Warhammer in that time-frame that I am aware of. As I stated earlier, previous iterations piloted one, but not this guy. IP was published in 2005. I remember reading this rumor in the RGM days in the mid 90's. It is VERY easy to see how fans drew this conclusion, what with Wolves on the Border having the Dragoons give a ride to the BH and him not appearing again until Michi wore the suit. Add the recollection of earlier BH's Warhammers to the soup, and there you go.

I'm confused. Your complaint seems to be that documentation of the Bounty Hunter piloting a Warhammer didn't exist until it did?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: wolfspider on 21 December 2021, 16:20:39
According to page 22 of Brush Wars Kerensky's ride is a salvaged Loyalist Warhammer. 
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: SteelRaven on 21 December 2021, 17:42:30
I'm confused. Your complaint seems to be that documentation of the Bounty Hunter piloting a Warhammer didn't exist until it did?
The deal is WotB had a green Griffin (Bounty Hunter) salvaging Natasha's Warhammer while MWO's narration for the Marauder has the Bounty Hunter watching the same ambush from a Warhammer. Now everyone who believes Gray was using a tricked out Rifleman is using the MWO narration for the Rifleman as a source when those short stories have contradict other canon sources regularly. To use IP conical rumors to support the MWO narratives can be frustrating for a few of us considering the OP was asking for fact and we are now stuck questioning what part of the legend was myth and rumor.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 21 December 2021, 18:07:26
According to page 22 of Brush Wars Kerensky's ride is a salvaged Loyalist Warhammer.   
DING DING DING DING DING  --  Houston we have a winner
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 21 December 2021, 18:12:12
The deal is WotB had a green Griffin (Bounty Hunter) salvaging Natasha's Warhammer while MWO's narration for the Marauder has the Bounty Hunter watching the same ambush from a Warhammer.

Now everyone who believes Gray was using a tricked out Rifleman is using the MWO narration for the Rifleman as a source when those short stories have contradict other canon sources regularly.

To use IP conical rumors to support the MWO narratives can be frustrating for a few of us considering the OP was asking for fact and we are now stuck questioning what part of the legend was myth and rumor.

None of this really supports any fan theory from the 90's or whenever that Natasha somehow got ahold of the BH Warhammer.

IF, I was to try & explain the 2 references above into some form of "merged" logic, which I'm prone to do.
I'd say that it was a member of the BH's crew in the Griffin at the time & he was watching secretly from the Whammer.
Walla, both sources are "correct".
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Jal Phoenix on 21 December 2021, 23:22:58
The deal is WotB had a green Griffin (Bounty Hunter) salvaging Natasha's Warhammer while MWO's narration for the Marauder has the Bounty Hunter watching the same ambush from a Warhammer. Now everyone who believes Gray was using a tricked out Rifleman is using the MWO narration for the Rifleman as a source when those short stories have contradict other canon sources regularly. To use IP conical rumors to support the MWO narratives can be frustrating for a few of us considering the OP was asking for fact and we are now stuck questioning what part of the legend was myth and rumor.

Ah, I see now. I missed that part of the discussion. Battletech canon is a twisted, tricky thing.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Frabby on 22 December 2021, 03:39:52
MWO's narration for the Marauder has the Bounty Hunter watching the same ambush from a Warhammer.
Wasn't aware of this and it looks like conflicting canonical sources - can you provide a link? (The MWO site is notoriously difficult for tracking down Hero Mech fluff.)
If there is indeed a canon conflict I'd like to raise it in the Ask the LD subforum to clear this up.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Apocal on 22 December 2021, 07:08:44
Wasn't aware of this and it looks like conflicting canonical sources - can you provide a link? (The MWO site is notoriously difficult for tracking down Hero Mech fluff.)
If there is indeed a canon conflict I'd like to raise it in the Ask the LD subforum to clear this up.

Archived version here, I don't know how to find lore posts on mwomercs.com normally.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210607130802/https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/215464-marauder-countdown-day-7-of-7/
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 22 December 2021, 07:26:06
Thanks for the link.  Okay, so that clearly shows the Bounty Hunter in a Warhammer ambushing Natasha. 

However, Wolves on the Border doesn't have any reference to Natasha's first encounter with the Bounty Hunter - just a reference to their last encounter on Le Blanc (in Tales of the Black Widow). 

Natasha says in a deposition "The Hunter himself was in his Griffin, dragging away my Marauder," quoted in the ComStar report on Wolf's Dragoons (the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook).

Based on the MWO lore bit, we have an in-character POV narrative putting the Bounty Hunter clearly in a Warhammer.  Based on the Dragoon sourcebook, we have Natasha, having ejected and hit her head, causing unconsciousness, seeing a green Griffin with credit symbols dragging her Marauder away.  There's no way at that distance she could know who was piloting it, and the Bounty Hunter has played tricks by being in another 'Mech while one of his lieutenants pilots a ride painted to look like his.

My call would be that the Bounty Hunter was in a Warhammer that day, and that Natasha was mistaken when she assumed he was in the Griffin.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 22 December 2021, 08:17:00
Based on the Dragoon sourcebook, we have Natasha, having ejected and hit her head, causing unconsciousness, seeing a green Griffin with credit symbols dragging her Marauder away.
There's more to it in that source than just the ambush. Both were working for Anton. Both were on the mission, with the BH assigned recon for the Dragoons, where he betrayed them. I feel like there would have been significant opportunity to identify who was in which 'Mech, though I do admit the possibility of trrecon.

The MWO fiction is quite a big retcon, but does not change that NK did not pilot his Warhammer.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 22 December 2021, 08:27:26
Natasha loses her Marauder on June 20, 3014 on Nova Roma.  She enters the mission with the understanding that the Bounty Hunter is in the Griffin.  Led into a Loyalist ambush by the Bounty Hunter, she ejects and regains consciousness in time to see the Loyalists and Hunter's lance executing one of her surviving men and the Griffin dragging away her Marauder as salvage.

In November 3014, she appears in combat on Calloway VI piloting a Warhammer.  It is stated to have been salvaged from Loyalists.

So, sometime in July - October, she obtained a Warhammer from Loyalist troops.  Given the Bounty Hunter's actions, he'd qualify as a loyalist.  The Hunter was known to have piloted both a Griffin and a Warhammer.  Perhaps Natasha went after the Hunter and acquired his Warhammer, rather than his Griffin, it being what was present during her raid.  Or perhaps she just nabbed a Warhammer from a random Loyalist that ran afoul of the Dragoons.

I think the canon discrepancy is easily resolved - narrative fiction overrules sourcebooks and new overrules old, so the Bounty Hunter was in the Warhammer, whatever Natasha may have understood (possibly deceived in the first place - the BH was planning an ambush, after all, and probably didn't want to risk Natasha's incoming fire if things went pear shaped.  Notably, in the HBS missions where you encounter the Bounty Hunter, you take down a 'Mech you think is his, but find out it's just one of his lieutenants - so it's an established modus operandi). 

Whether Dark Lady was the BH's former ride is entirely open to interpretation until such time as a published work addresses the issue.  As written, the facts support that it could be, but don't necessarily nail down that it is.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 22 December 2021, 09:11:50
There are further issues with the MWO fiction (Nov 2015) that kind of point to it being poorly fact-checked.

1) In The Memory of Pain (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Memory_of_Pain) (2011) and later A Time of Ice and Fire (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/A_Time_of_Ice_and_Fire) (2015), Natasha had not yet named her unit and had not taken on the Widow moniker until 24 March 2015. However, in the MWO fiction, the BH states to himself, "Blake’s Blood, Web-Head. You are as good as you say." Calling her Web-Head is nothing new for him in later meetings, but why would he call her that on 24 June 3014? Joshua hadn't been killed yet. (The MWO story does call her lance "a heavy lance of Wolf’s Dragoons Beta Regiment, Special Recon Group", indicating that they weren't the Black Widows yet.)

2) Wolf's Dragoons states that the BH and his "small cadre of professional cutthroats" were on Nova Roma. That the BH was assigned to the mission along with NK and her lance, and that NK saw "the Bounty Hunter's 'Mechs and several Marik regulars" salvaging her lance. The MWO fiction only states that the BH was hidden and that NK's lance was ambushed by twice their number of loyalists. There is nothing of his "cadre".
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 22 December 2021, 09:18:14
Archived version here, I don't know how to find lore posts on mwomercs.com normally.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210607130802/https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/215464-marauder-countdown-day-7-of-7/

Using the latter half of the the link you provided works:

https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/215464-marauder-countdown-day-7-of-7/
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 22 December 2021, 09:25:07
Natasha’s deposition doesn’t say the Hunter and his crew destroyed her unit - just that they led them into the Loyalist ambush.  Entirely possible the BH was in his Warhammer covertly observing the ambush site while a minion led the Hunter team in the Griffin, pretending to be him, then backed off when the Dragoons entered the kill zone.

I grant you that the web head reference is anachronistic.  It’s a shout out to the BH using the same term on Le Blanc.  There, it made sense because of her spidery moniker.  However, even before taking the Black Widow nom de guerre, Natasha was noted for incorporating the Clan Widowmaker motif in her fashion, as a statement of rebellion.  That was certainly noticed, given the media attention put on the Dragoons, and may be what elicited the nickname from the BH.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 22 December 2021, 10:06:48
Agreed, IIRC, she is noted as having part of her blood line from Widowmaker Lines the Wolves absorbed & using that symbol back in the homeworlds.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 22 December 2021, 10:15:50
I'm not really seeing the possibility of her having his Whammer.

I mean IF we didn't have the fluff of him being in it.
IF she didn't have it at the very next world they were battling on.

Then maybe I could see a story of her somehow catching up to him & getting it.
Heck, IF he wasn't fluffed of being in it then maybe they capture his dropship while he escapes in the Griffin another way.

But with both Him & the Warhammer being in the field & no story of him loosing the Mule where maybe it could have been stored IF he had been in the Griffin.

Well, its just not likely that it was "His" Warhammer that was noted as being a "Loyalist" Warhammer.

He was a low end small Merc that betrayed 1 employer for another.  Not sure that ever makes him a "Loyalist"

I think Brush Wars gives us the answer to this "rumor" and its False.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Frabby on 22 December 2021, 10:58:32
Archived version here, I don't know how to find lore posts on mwomercs.com normally.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210607130802/https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/215464-marauder-countdown-day-7-of-7/
Fantastic, thank you very much!

In the old Shrapnel anthology there is a famous "interview" Natasha Kerensky gave to a young Misha Auburn. In it, Natasha denies her WHM is the Bounty Hunter's.
Of course the entire interview is fishy, and "Kerensky" may even have been a body double.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 22 December 2021, 11:17:55
Considering the chronology has her burning inbound to Hoff on the date of the interview…yeah, body double.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 December 2021, 11:26:33
Is it date filed or date interviewed?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 22 December 2021, 11:35:48
I'm not really seeing the possibility of her having his Whammer.
Another part of it, for me, is that it seems out of character for her. The BH betrayed her, killed her people and salvaged her 'Mech. So she steals his old ride? That's the best the pinnacle of Clan genetics could do? I feel she would accept nothing less that killing him face-to-face and, since she already had a Warhammer, she wouldn't trade it for his. She would rather melt it down. For her to somehow attain his 'Mech by finding it also would assume that the BH is rather incompetent and that she didn't have better things to do in a civil war that had the Dragoons very busy.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 22 December 2021, 11:44:35
Is it date filed or date interviewed?

Date interviewed.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 22 December 2021, 12:42:09
Another part of it, for me, is that it seems out of character for her. The BH betrayed her, killed her people and salvaged her 'Mech. So she steals his old ride? That's the best the pinnacle of Clan genetics could do? I feel she would accept nothing less that killing him face-to-face and, since she already had a Warhammer, she wouldn't trade it for his. She would rather melt it down. For her to somehow attain his 'Mech by finding it also would assume that the BH is rather incompetent and that she didn't have better things to do in a civil war that had the Dragoons very busy.

I would never think there were 2 Warhammers. 
Before I saw the Brush Wars line & before I put the full timeline together of Ambush v/s Next Planet when she has the Hammer........ the best I could rationalize was that sometime after ambush event she & some other dragoons had almost captured him but only got his stored Marauder.

Now when you take the Brush Wars line about it being a Warhammer salvaged from the Loyalist units, combined w/ knowing he was in the Warhammer watching, combined w/ the timeline from Ambush to Seen in a Hammer on next world.
Yeah, her having his Mech just isn't feasible in my eyes.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 22 December 2021, 14:39:58
honestly that myth is almost as pervasive as the idea that the tricked out marauder custom variant the Bounty Hunter was using in 3015 represented what Natasha was running when the BH took the mech from her. (particularly the use of DHS). which given the mech was half destroyed when he got it in 3014, seems less likely than the  BH having to rebuilt into an exotic variant, in much the same way that he was able to rebuild it in 3044 with XL engine, gauss rifle, etc when all that stuff was still cutting edge and hard to get in the IS. given the BH's use of nighthawk PA(L) and other advanced tricks, the idea that the BH's had access to knowledge about where to find some caches of SLDF gear isn't much of a stretch.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: mikecj on 22 December 2021, 14:46:21
Didn't the Dragoons strip out almost all the advanced Tech before they contracted with Davion?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 22 December 2021, 14:56:03
Didn't the Dragoons strip out almost all the advanced Tech before they contracted with Davion?
yes. and from all official accounts, they did a very thorough job of it too. but many people point to things like the BH's 3015 marauder in an attempt to argue that the dragoons secretly snuck in advanced tech like DHS onto units "where it wouldn't show". that it would be blindingly obvious to any observer that the mechs were running 50% cooler than they were supposed to be (or packed much more weaponry and/or armor than they should, due to needing fewer heatsinks) seems to go over their heads.

usually they seem to think the BH took the mech intact in 3014.. instead of the shot up wreck that it was.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 December 2021, 14:59:59
Didn't the Dragoons strip out almost all the advanced Tech before they contracted with Davion?

Mostly . . . with the Dragoons building their own replacements on the space station initially, BT fans have speculated they might have kept a few mechs like Marauders, Warhammers and maybe Archers with DHS & ERPPCs that operated in step downed performance.  If they needed to swing the battle, flip the switch on the governor off, and mop up.  They just had to be sure they would win, could secure sensor data, and recover or destroy any of that tech in fallen mechs.

It is a interesting thought exercise and possible, but the ability to keep that secret by meeting the 3 above conditions every time . . . rules against it, Occam knows best after all.

I guess it COULD happen for their first contracts to ensure they set up a winning rep, and then things like Marauder 2Rs are sent off to their periphery caches when they do the 1st resupply.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Jal Phoenix on 22 December 2021, 16:40:48
yes. and from all official accounts, they did a very thorough job of it too. but many people point to things like the BH's 3015 marauder in an attempt to argue that the dragoons secretly snuck in advanced tech like DHS onto units "where it wouldn't show". that it would be blindingly obvious to any observer that the mechs were running 50% cooler than they were supposed to be (or packed much more weaponry and/or armor than they should, due to needing fewer heatsinks) seems to go over their heads.

They appeared in 3005, the darkest time of the Third Succession War, when people were fighting over water resources and barely knew how to operate BattleMechs at all. House Davion didn't even question the sudden appearance of five+ regiments of mercenaries, with no explanation of their origins. Outside of ComStar, I don't think the mechanisms are in place for recognizing that a 'Mech is building up less heat or shrugging off slightly more damage than usual for its chassis. Remember, the Dragoons were the advance scouts. They had no idea how bad the state of the Inner Sphere was before they arrived. They knew enough to mothball their WarShips, but other less important things could have easily slipped through. Like an entire Behemoth chassis.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 December 2021, 16:47:44
They appeared in 3005, the darkest time of the Third Succession War, when people were fighting over water resources and barely knew how to operate BattleMechs at all. House Davion didn't even question the sudden appearance of five+ regiments of mercenaries, with no explanation of their origins. Outside of ComStar, I don't think the mechanisms are in place for recognizing that a 'Mech is building up less heat or shrugging off slightly more damage than usual for its chassis. Remember, the Dragoons were the advance scouts. They had no idea how bad the state of the Inner Sphere was before they arrived. They knew enough to mothball their WarShips, but other less important things could have easily slipped through. Like an entire Behemoth chassis.

Before the retcon that pushed the recovery of Star League tech back, there were in-universe reports from the initial Clan invasion where soldiers noted that Clan mechs could fire their weapons at much higher rates without becoming crippled by overheating than should have been possible.  I'm pretty sure that if the Dragoons had been blazing away in combat while their mechs didn't seem to suffer heat-related performance issues, people would have noticed.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 December 2021, 17:07:03
Pulse lasers and Ultra ACs account for some of that . . . then again seeing a Marauder IIC fire off with 3 PPCs and not shut down would be noticed.  Just like Phelan was shocked a modified Marauder or Catapult was able to fire a pair of large lasers and LRMs- and OMG, that laser reached out farther accurately than his large laser!  Even using L1 tech, you are looking at 26 heat which neither the Marauder or Catapult can easily dissipate in a single turn.  It would start to slow after one turn, slow more and have a harder time hitting after 2 turns.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 22 December 2021, 17:22:45
yes. and from all official accounts, they did a very thorough job of it too.

See the Shogun for 2 examples of tech that shouldn't have been there.   (IIRC, CASE-2E,  ERPPC early on 2F)
See the IMP for use of a mech that didn't exist during Exodus.

They did a good job, but it wasn't perfect.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 22 December 2021, 18:13:54
usually they seem to think the BH took the mech intact in 3014.. instead of the shot up wreck that it was.

From Legends, p. 55: "The Dragoons, determined to conceal their origins as deep-cover scouts for the Clans, were not so foolish as to field their machines with Star League technology, and so the Hunter’s prize was nothing more than a superbly maintained specimen of that breed." And it also goes on to explain the SL tech that he added later.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 22 December 2021, 18:17:00
Though the clans didn't have 3R model marauders or even really know about them, so I wonder if there were subtle differences in the mech from a standard 3R. Like maybe the ammunition was on the same side as the autocannon or the heatsinks were located in subtly different places.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Xotl on 22 December 2021, 18:19:33
Also page 41:

Quote
When the Dragoons were revealed as a Clan reconnaissance unit, a host of defeated MechWarriors claimed that the Black Widow had “cheated” her way to victory via her Warhammer’s Clan ER PPCs. In reality, Jaime Wolf was well aware how easy it was to lose a ’Mech on the battlefield to a curious enemy, and so strictly forbade the use of Star League—let alone Clan—technologies in the field until such technologies were widely available elsewhere. As such, Natasha’s Warhammer, like her prior Marauder, was well-maintained but otherwise bone-stock.

Jaime Wolf was not the kind of commander unwise enough to assume he would win every fight.  He knew a bunch of Dragoons salvage could give the game up.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 22 December 2021, 18:22:36
See the Shogun for 2 examples of tech that shouldn't have been there.   (IIRC, CASE-2E,  ERPPC early on 2F)
See the IMP for use of a mech that didn't exist during Exodus.

They did a good job, but it wasn't perfect.
The shogun -2F was built after the tech rennisance started (3029 intro date. Technically before the erppc was reintroed, but that date comes from older material than the erppc date. Suggesting this is a continuity research fail on catalysts part rather than a Dragoon's conspiracy)
(And honestly it isn't hard to just assume that for the first 6years of use the mech carried a standard PPC being refit once ER's entered the market, and the change wasn't given enough of a notice to warrant a new versions. Especially since by the point there were only a handful left anyway)

The CASE on the -2E is an question given it's 3005 introdate, but since case is integral to the structure of a mech odds are they just couldn't remove it easily. And we know they weren't building more of them, because the fluff says so.

Still does not mean that the dragoon's were actually running secret star league ubermechs as so many claim.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Cache on 22 December 2021, 18:24:23
Still does not mean that the dragoon's we're actually running secret star league ubermechs as so many claim.
Those short on skill tend to make such claims. It's easy to ignore them.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Jal Phoenix on 22 December 2021, 18:51:46
Still does not mean that the dragoon's we're actually running secret star league ubermechs as so many claim.

I most definitely read that as "secret Star League UrbanMechs". Zeta Battalion owes its success to something, right?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 22 December 2021, 19:16:18
I most definitely read that as "secret Star League UrbanMechs". Zeta Battalion owes its success to something, right?

Between the Annihilator and the Imp, is that really all that inaccurate?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 December 2021, 19:26:21
Also page 41:

Jaime Wolf was not the kind of commander unwise enough to assume he would win every fight.  He knew a bunch of Dragoons salvage could give the game up.

A point for and a point against . . . first, we do not know the IC writer of Legends and the way entries are written with the occasional statement that is not definitive.  Since it seems to be written by a IC voice and the statement is not a first hand account from Jaime, but rather a second or third hand source, it is not a total block on the Dragoons using some stuff ahead of time.  Additionally, I know of one sentence that is point blank wrong in Legends which escaped fack-checkers.

But Occam's being what it is, IF they had anything at all advanced or kept some special stuff like Swarm LRM ammo around for special occasions.  Then it would not have been much and they would have had to meet the criteria I listed previously.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 22 December 2021, 20:04:30
Those short on skill tend to make such claims. It's easy to ignore them.

i've actually run into some very skilled players who have fallen for such claims. and i've seen a lot of new players falling for such claims. MWO and HBS have skewed a lot of new player's understanding of technological availability in during the succession wars and early clan invasion. and many of those newer players, seeking out older BT fans to dive deeper in the lore, keep falling for some really inaccurate claims.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 23 December 2021, 01:01:14
The shogun -2F was built after the tech rennisance started (3029 intro date. Technically before the erppc was reintroed, but that date comes from older material than the erppc date. Suggesting this is a continuity research fail on catalysts part rather than a Dragoon's conspiracy)
I disagree.  I don't think its a continuity error at all. 
Its a tiny example of the Dragoons getting prepped for what is coming in the future and their need to rebuild after the losses in the 4th SW.
There were very few Shoguns running around so it could easily be a test bed run for them to start doing what they hadn't been doing for 25 years, which is using some SLDF tech.
We know by 3050 they were full on producing clan tech and had stored SLDF tech available but not used.

Quote
(And honestly it isn't hard to just assume that for the first 6years of use the mech carried a standard PPC being refit once ER's entered the market, and the change wasn't given enough of a notice to warrant a new versions. Especially since by the point there were only a handful left anyway)
I'm not sure what your saying.   1st 6 years?    The only change from the 2E to the 2F was swapping out the PPC for ERPPC.
If they were running 2F's w/ PPCs then it would be called the 2E.
The Dragoons simply had access to SLDF era ERPPCs that the IS didn't & started using them on the sly.
Kinda how Natasha expanded the Widows from a Battalion to a "Cluster" formation a decade before the clans showed up.


Quote
The CASE on the -2E is an question given it's 3005 introdate, but since case is integral to the structure of a mech odds are they just couldn't remove it easily. And we know they weren't building more of them, because the fluff says so.
CASE got removed from the Marauders they brought among other things.
I think the real reason its there is a typo on the original WDSB TRO section page.
But they added in a nice little hint in the way they say "they never seem to reduce the # of Shoguns even though they aren't producing them".
Hinting that any ammo explosions aren't fatal since the CASE is there.
The TRO page had ammo in the wrong locations IIRC & was under weight by a ton, hence the missing CASE that showed up on the RS version.


Quote
Still does not mean that the dragoon's were actually running secret star league ubermechs as so many claim.
Agreed.
My points above were just to show that they did have a couple small instances of neglecting some tech removal or adding tech back on early.


Honestly I wouldn't have cared if Kerensky had been piloting a 2R when she came to the IS & that was the source of the BH's 3015 upgrade.
She was a Blood Named Star Colonel known for breaking the rules, so if anyone in the Dragoons had kept an edge, I'd imagine it being her.
But him having found a SLDF cache is just as fine too since we know he had NightHawk armor & it had to come from somewhere.
I'd have been fine however it turned out.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Hellraiser on 23 December 2021, 01:03:54
i've actually run into some very skilled players who have fallen for such claims. and i've seen a lot of new players falling for such claims. MWO and HBS have skewed a lot of new player's understanding of technological availability in during the succession wars and early clan invasion. and many of those newer players, seeking out older BT fans to dive deeper in the lore, keep falling for some really inaccurate claims.

The way they do the Hero mechs is a bit off from a lore stand point with all the XL this & full DHS & Endo that, but, what might have been cool is if the game had access to the Wo39 prototype weaponry & they had used some lesser variants/upgrades to give the Hero mechs a bit of a boost w/o breaking the tech barrier completely.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 23 December 2021, 01:18:28
I could imagine any original Marauders the Dragoons brought with them having CASE, just because its an original component. But not much beyond that.

But I think there are some additional nuances worth considering:

First, the Clans didn't have a complete picture of how badly degraded the inner sphere's tech base was when they were outfitting the dragoons. So there's room for mistakes being made in selecting the right equipment to blend in (this is actually the canonical explanation for some of their idiosyncrasies, like the fact that they didn't realize that Mercenaries wouldn't have WarShips and had to abruptly stash them at the last minute).

Second, the Dragoons are operating for an extended period far from the homeworlds with resupply happening only every few years. Any advanced equipment they do use is basically irreplaceable aside from those supply runs, so it simply makes sense to use equipment they can replace outside of those.

So I think even if the Dragoons did have advanced technology with them, they were likely to replace it once they had a feel for what the inner sphere actually had available.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Mendrugo on 23 December 2021, 01:30:00
Given the way the DLC was framed, I'm okay with the proliferation of LosTech in that portion of the Periphery. 

Pirates get ahold of a crashed Wolverine? ship packed full of LosTech and decide to get rich selling it throughout the region, sparking a massive surge in tech availability until such time as the ship goes blooey and the guns sold around end up destroyed, without having much of an impact on the broader Inner Sphere.  There must be similar outbreaks of local LosTech availability whenever a LosTech prospector hits it big and unloads their haul onto the market.  Surely people buy the old gear with the intention of using it, rather than putting it in a museum.  This was just an exceptionally large and advanced haul.

Interestingly, a close read of the specs on the lasers that increase damage based on movement suggests those weren't from the crashed ship.  They are of ComStar manufacture - apparently something ComStar was field testing in the region.


So even if someone found a piece of LosTech in a Dragoon 'Mech, that shouldn't be considered impossible, even circa 3015.  Granted, functional LosTech guns are incredibly rare, but anyone seeing them in action won't say "that's impossible!" - they'll say "that lucky stiff - make it a priority target - I want its tech as salvage."
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Frabby on 23 December 2021, 04:46:44
Brush Wars does not mention what 'Mech the Bounty Hunter piloted on Nova Roma.
The "he had a Griffin when he stole Kerensky's Marauder" thing is from the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook, p. 124 (The Widow Speaks) text box. That's framed as a ComStar document from 3030. The document quotes Natasha herself, as documented in files from a Dragoon board of inquiry: "I saw the Bounty Hunter's 'Mechs and several Marik regulars busily salvaging the remains of my lance. The Hunter himself was in his Griffin, dragging away my Marauder."
Even assuming that Kerensky's assumptions are correct, this does not rule out that the Bounty Hunter may have piloted a Warhammer up until the ambush but temporarily switched to the Griffin of an associate during the subsequent recovery and salvage operations.

The interview part in Shrapnel reads "Q: O.K., then where did you get your current 'Mech? A: From the wreckage of dozens of battles. The left arm was mostly captured on New Wessex. Both of the feet, or maybe just one of the feet, came from New Delos. You can't tell the pieces apart."
...which, I have to admit, doesn't amout to the express rejection of the idea that it was the Bounty Hunter's ride that I remembered. I still maintain that it's extremely unlikely that she could have obtained the Bounty Hunter's Warhammer.

So even if someone found a piece of LosTech in a Dragoon 'Mech, that shouldn't be considered impossible, even circa 3015. 
There's that quote that I couldn't find in a rush from Liao techs who had inspected a downed Dragoon Hoplite and concluded it was relatively new but not built in any known factory. Of course, the higher-ups didn't listen to them. But the Techs knew someting weird was going on with the Dragoons.
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: RifleMech on 24 December 2021, 01:09:59
The TRO entry in Operation Klondike for the Firefly says
Quote
Ironically, the Firefly model brought to the Inner Sphere by Wolf’s Dragoons (the FFL-4A) bore a startling similarity to the most downgraded of the factional Fireflys and it is possible the examples used by the mercenaries came from cached factional militaries.


Why couldn't the same be true of other Dragoon Mechs? Especially their post Exodus variants? What if Natasha's Marauder wasn't a 2R or a 3R but something that had been downgraded by the Pentagon Powers or even downgraded Dragoons themselves? A downgrade that was similar enough to a 3R that any discrepancies discovered during salvage wouldn't cause any problems? After all it wasn't the variant of Firefly that drew attention. It was that the Dragoons had Fireflys. Besides, the Dragoons had their own Wasp and Archer variants. Maybe the Dragoon variant of the Marauder is close enough to the 3R for people to call it a 3R. Only the Dragoon variant had a bunch of quirks to make it more effective? Like improved life support, a combat computer and improved targeting? Things one wouldn't know unless they captured one intact? And since Natasha's Marauder wasn't intact when captured, and the cockpit was destroyed when she bailed out, no one noticed the difference when it was repaired?
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: wolfspider on 24 December 2021, 09:06:16
How about this angle, the Lia techs report their finding to the higher ups and nothing is done. A certain organization takes the report seriously and decides to investigate that report further. They hire the bounty hunter to recover a mech which he does. As part of his payment they agree to give him an upgraded mech from their vast supply of lost tech machines.

You know on second thought that sounds to far fletch,,,or does it? 😉
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: Frabby on 24 December 2021, 16:25:16
You know on second thought that sounds to far fletch,,,or does it? 😉
On a strictly technical fact-checking level, yes, this is exactly how things work in the BT universe in the early 31st century. Absolutely plausible. Though we know that canonically, ComStar was extremely interested in the Dragoons right off the bat, and then only got more and more interested as they found them a nut they couldn’t crack. Escalated all the way up to Anton Marik gunning down Joshua Wolf. (Unless you believe ComStar didn't pull the strings on that one.)

From a storytelling/meta perspective, on the other hand, I'm getting bored out of my skull by ComStar puppet mastering the entire Inner Sphere without a hitch (despite being at the same time totally clueless as to where they want to go with it; but that's quite another can of worms).
Title: Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
Post by: mikecj on 24 December 2021, 18:52:27
The Star League did that too- they bum rushed a Ronin and took his 'Mech apart.  Then they started the Gunslingers program.