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Author Topic: Legend-Killer's abilities?  (Read 12955 times)

Weirdo

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Legend-Killer's abilities?
« on: 01 December 2021, 10:44:10 »
I forget, did anyone ever stat out what the full abilities were supposed to come from the crazy fusion of multiple targeting systems and SLDF helmet that was described in Legend-Killer's entry in Legends?
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MarauderD

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #1 on: 01 December 2021, 10:49:36 »
As a fan of the Rifleman, I haven't seen any such list of statted out abilities on Legend-Killer.  It could be out there, but I don't think so?

SteelRaven

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #2 on: 01 December 2021, 11:34:10 »
Think Fasa just wrote him as a very good shot.

Over the years, some fans just started making a stink that there was very slim chance that you could recreate Legend Killer's wins in game... which makes sense because it's fiction and the game relies heavily on odds from a RNG vs actual skill marksmanship.

The idea LK may have been using some sort of lost tech targeting computer is a good compromise between LK have amazing skill and the idea he must have had some sort of edge over his opponents. After all, allot of computer gear a mech uses only gets mentioned in the fluff without it actually contributing to the mechs/pilots stats.   
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Xotl

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #3 on: 01 December 2021, 12:38:18 »
No, there were no game mechanics made for it.  Broadly one could infer that you get the Combat Computer Quirk (Spar 3C), some sort of to-hit bonus (Tru-Trak), and another blanket -1 from the SLDF helmet.  The actuators and myomer have never been treated as components that affect core gameplay stats before outside of movement (which is why I chose them for the entry), but the idea was it would perhaps lend itself to defensive and PSR bonuses.

But yeah, SteelRaven's note really sums up my thoughts on the matter too: that fiction and the game don't line up all that well at times, making some things that are possible in the universe extremely hard to achieve on the tabletop.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #4 on: 01 December 2021, 13:09:39 »
IIRC the SLDF era Neuro Helmets were given stats in some publication.
I honestly forget what book had them, but, they were a bonus of -1 to Piloting Checks.

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Xotl

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #5 on: 01 December 2021, 13:10:47 »
They were: the Tactical Handbook.  That was replaced by their entry in IO, which gave them a revised bonus I mentioned above.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #6 on: 01 December 2021, 13:17:38 »
Well, the myomer would be simple . . . some sort of prototype, custom homebuilt tweaked myomer that replicates (in table top's abstract nature) the AES system that would never hold up in field conditions.  Sort of like the whole 'we can give soldiers powered exoskeletons!' . . . that can only work for 30 minutes on the battery they can hump or have to stay plugged into a generator.

Addtionally, like Xotl and SteelRaven mention, table top TW rules do not lend themselves to duplicating fiction feats except in the broadest sense- IE, a battle result.  The reason is that 'luck' averages out with the more numbers- individual luck plays a larger factor in lance vs lance battles than company vs company battles.

To really replicate Legend-Killer's performance in the arenas you would need to use RPG rules b/c that is a more proper granularity to accomplishing those feats.  Even then, results will still not exactly duplicate because of random results.

Further trying to reflect Legend-Killer/Gray Noton's synergy . . . Noton as the pilot could also be said to express some SPAs.  I am not sure if any really stand out the little bit we see him in fiction.
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Weirdo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #7 on: 01 December 2021, 13:42:32 »
Broadly one could infer that you get the Combat Computer Quirk (Spar 3C), some sort of to-hit bonus (Tru-Trak)

THIS is the kind of info I was looking for. Is there any particular quirk associated with mechs built with the Tru-Trak?
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Xotl

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #8 on: 01 December 2021, 14:34:01 »
No.  It's from the Phoenix Hawk entry, which implies a general accuracy bonus.  However, as the Phoenix Hawk is a common mech even in the lostech days, when making the quirk list we left off any sort of accuracy bonus because it didn't make sense for the era.  IIRC we decided that such a bonus would apply to old-school examples of the Hawk, but not new-make ones.  Since we put off having to apply the bonus, though, we never did settle on what precise bonuses the full suite would provide.  The quirk system deliberately has no provision for flat +1 bonuses, so it probably wouldn't be that: it instead prefers to assign bonuses either for individual weapons or at specific range brackets.  You could conceivably kit out a mech with Improved Targeting Short, Medium, and Long and have that effect, but no canon mech has that (the closest is the Clint, which has Medium and Long; even then, it's the only mech in the game with a quirk-based targeting system that good).

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Weirdo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #9 on: 01 December 2021, 14:39:46 »
Fair enough. I guess the best bet for anyone wanting to see Noton strut his stuff on the tabletop would be to load him down with SPAs.
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guardiandashi

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #10 on: 01 December 2021, 14:52:32 »
THIS is the kind of info I was looking for. Is there any particular quirk associated with mechs built with the Tru-Trak?
yes but only if you go to the battletechnology magazine article
there are 2 2page entries with every mech T&T computer listed from 2750 through 3025/3050 (except the clan ones)

the most "broken" T&T computer is the slone 220 lockover which was only in the clint and it would not be unfair to say that the T&T computer would realistically be worth more than the entire mech, in fact at the end of the article it basically says that someone was offering to trade an entire battalion of mechs for the slone 220 and the person getting the T&T computer would be getting the better side of the deal.

as I remember it. there are 3 (10) computers that stand out but for different reasons.
the slone 220, has it all, 2x tam (two point targeting advantage) target id battlecomputer 360 scanning a bunch of other things and it bumps the first heat targeting issue to just before the first ammo explosion check, but its really hard to fix if it gets damaged
the tek tru track? the phoenix hawks T&T is mostly so os to junk except it has 2x TAM
the T&T from the sentenal from 2750 has an interesting querk in that it adds 6 hexes to the long range bracket unless you are talking weapons with a 3 hex max range then it extends the ranges of all brackets.
the garret d2j from the rifleman, and its bigger brother have built in aerospace targeting module (bonus to hit aircraft)

its actually a really good/interesting article

General308

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #11 on: 01 December 2021, 15:31:21 »
I forget, did anyone ever stat out what the full abilities were supposed to come from the crazy fusion of multiple targeting systems and SLDF helmet that was described in Legend-Killer's entry in Legends?

Isn't the SLDF helmet in Interstellar Operations?

Weirdo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #12 on: 01 December 2021, 16:14:53 »
Yeah, that one was easy to find.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #13 on: 01 December 2021, 16:17:49 »
As a fan of the Rifleman, I haven't seen any such list of statted out abilities on Legend-Killer.  It could be out there, but I don't think so?
it was in BattleTech: Legends

short version, after a collector obtained Legend Killer, it was found it had a mashup of the Garret D2J targeting system and the Spar 3c Battlecomputer off a stalker, with markings suggesting it had been developed in SLDF times for a gunslinger. the mech also had customized myomer bundling and the guts of a SLDF neurohelmet inside a standard helmet's housing.

basically instead of having some sort of hyper custome weapons load or extra heavy mech, his late succession wars version RFL-3R was tricked out with stuff that would give it quirks. no list of them was given (left to the Gm) but you could make a good argument based on fluff for both variable range targeting (from the Garret D2J fluff) and Combat Computer (from the Spar 3c off the stalker) which would make the weapons much more accurate but also the whole mech run cooler. the neurohelmet would fall under the SLDF gear rules which gives a bonus to piloting.

the custom myomer don't suggest any obvious quirks and may just be a side effect if how hand built the thing would be..

of course that many positive quirks would certainly have al ot of negative ones, probably non-standard parts, difficult to maintain, maybe even ramshackle too. would have been a major hanger queen.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #14 on: 01 December 2021, 16:29:56 »
The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons.

This was well before the Rifleman-II was introduced into the game, so whether they call it a stripped down RFL-3N2 chassis or if it started as a 3N that got the "Marauder-II / Centurion-Maximus" treatment, either way, that quote makes me think it should be heavier.

I'm all for quirks & other items too for it to be special & last 7 full years as the champ.   Just wish all that somehow covered the "we know it was heavier" quote.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #15 on: 01 December 2021, 16:37:49 »
I still say the Myomer sounds like a custom AES type system.

of course that many positive quirks would certainly have al ot of negative ones, probably non-standard parts, difficult to maintain, maybe even ramshackle too. would have been a major hanger queen.

Yeah, TONS of negative quirks you might also have to consider things like Prototype (increased crit hits/damage), probably a chance for Sensor Ghost (directly linked to malfunctioning SL Advanced Neurohelmet), repairs perhaps causing EM Interference (negate Combat Computer or TT comp quirk until fixed) thought it would be campaign related so usually irrelevant to Weirdo.

Besides that you also have to consider the RP-side that Noton would have followed . . . IE, it took a post-mortem after it was out of his possession to figure this stuff out SO following the old saying, 'Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead,' it means Legend-Killer did not have a huge tech staff supporting repairs, regular maintenance or even keeping those barely compatible systems speaking to each other.  Which means you are talking about him allowing VERY few techs to touch it, and none of them ever spoke about what they found.  Now factor that in to how long it would take to fix or maintain the mech.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #16 on: 01 December 2021, 17:03:13 »
yep.. which works for a Solaris mech, where you have a fair bit of time between battles, and can afford to retain a small team of very skilled techs to rebuild the thing after each.

we also know that he had a lot of pull with the underworld types on solaris 7 after retirement, so i wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't cultivate those ties during his career, arranging to get some fights rigged in his favor in exchange for earning the mafia types some extra money through bets. which might help explain why his mech never took so bad a beating against assaults that its special T&T system took damage.

The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons
except it wasn't "evidence", it was rumor that it was a heavier mech. which suggests that we're talking fan conspiracy theory stuff where they ran the footfalls of the mech in a holovid recording through a sound processor, or something like that, rather than anything like hard evidence from the arena sensors.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #17 on: 01 December 2021, 17:03:44 »
Fair enough. I guess the best bet for anyone wanting to see Noton strut his stuff on the tabletop would be to load him down with SPAs.

Yeah, adding SPAs to the quirks mentioned above (ad-hoc targeting computer and good helmet) and suddenly, you've got an elite pilot that could conceivably be as good as the fiction.

Be a good enemy NPC / big-bad for a campaign!  :thumbsup:

Xotl

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #18 on: 01 December 2021, 17:10:02 »
it was in BattleTech: Legends

short version, after a collector obtained Legend Killer, it was found it had a mashup of the Garret D2J targeting system and the Spar 3c Battlecomputer off a stalker

The Tru-Trak, not the Garret D2J.  I discuss it a couple of posts above yours.

except it wasn't "evidence", it was rumor that it was a heavier mech. which suggests that we're talking fan conspiracy theory stuff where they ran the footfalls of the mech in a holovid recording through a sound processor, or something like that, rather than anything like hard evidence from the arena sensors.

Exactly.  The Legends entry goes specifically into the reasons why the heavier/Star League mech theory is impossible.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #19 on: 01 December 2021, 18:01:27 »
Yeah, adding SPAs to the quirks mentioned above (ad-hoc targeting computer and good helmet) and suddenly, you've got an elite pilot that could conceivably be as good as the fiction.

Be a good enemy NPC / big-bad for a campaign!  :thumbsup:

Absolutely . . . been a while since I read it, but it does not sound like it is the first time he ends up somewhere as a battlefield assassin.  Just that the service is rare, and thus expensive though really a budgetary rounding error among the Houses.

Now I wonder why the HBS PCs never ran into Noton, since it starts before the 4SW.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #20 on: 01 December 2021, 18:04:55 »
except it wasn't "evidence", it was rumor that it was a heavier mech. which suggests that we're talking fan conspiracy theory stuff where they ran the footfalls of the mech in a holovid recording through a sound processor, or something like that, rather than anything like hard evidence from the arena sensors.

Exactly.  The Legends entry goes specifically into the reasons why the heavier/Star League mech theory is impossible.

That isn't what the quote says.

The Rumor/Theory part is in reference to him maybe having round a SL Cache of advanced gear.  And only came about years later after the SLDF tech & arrival of the clans.

It then goes on to say "In Addition, some Evidenceexists that Noton's mech weighed considerably more & had been upgraded to 80-90 tons like the Marauder-II with extra armor.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #21 on: 01 December 2021, 18:52:16 »
I'm tired of having this debate in the forum every time Legend Killer is brought up.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #22 on: 01 December 2021, 18:58:38 »
I did as much as I was allowed to.  On any well-established sport where there's a million sensors and cameras and fortunes are at stake because literally billions are watching and betting on the outcome, the idea that they would just let you sneak in a bigger mech and have no way of catching that is like the idea that they would let you bring a fighter that's actually three Mike Tysons in a trenchcoat into a boxing match.  The trick then is trying to explain how a seemingly regular Rifleman could survive, without 100% appealing to a gameplay vs. fiction disconnect.

Hellraiser is correct on the "some evidence" part, but since it never details what it is and I thought it outright silly, I decided the unstated evidence didn't amount to anything.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #23 on: 01 December 2021, 19:07:43 »
Literally anybody can say "some evidence".

There are people who claim some bits of weird looking industrial slag are "evidence" of alien spaceships.

Also something that constitutes "evidence" isn't in and of itself a conclusion. That's why we have trials instead of immediately declaring guilt or innocence.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #24 on: 01 December 2021, 20:40:21 »
I did as much as I was allowed to.  On any well-established sport where there's a million sensors and cameras and fortunes are at stake because literally billions are watching and betting on the outcome, the idea that they would just let you sneak in a bigger mech and have no way of catching that is like the idea that they would let you bring a fighter that's actually three Mike Tysons in a trenchcoat into a boxing match.  The trick then is trying to explain how a seemingly regular Rifleman could survive, without 100% appealing to a gameplay vs. fiction disconnect.

Hellraiser is correct on the "some evidence" part, but since it never details what it is and I thought it outright silly, I decided the unstated evidence didn't amount to anything.



As I mentioned before, my thought is its some sort of seismic sensor, that isn't likely to be "to the ton" accurate.
IIRC something like Vibrabombs have a 10 ton wiggle room to set them off.
Meanwhile a seem to recall the sensors in some of the video games will just tell you something is approaching, and then as its closer, maybe say "size class" or "mech v/s tank".  Only when its on top of you do you get a visual ID of what it is. 
Not that I'm saying MechCommander or something is the same as a Mech Cockpit in universe.

I'm just saying some people say Oh it would tell you exactly what the tonnage is.  Yet, we have examples of where things don't do that.
Heck AFAIK military radar only gives you a "blip" and then based on some of the characteristics of said "blip" and previous sightings you can maybe narrow it down from there.
Sub sonar can start to narrow down things based on hearing them before right?  You don't just get a perfect read out, someone has to have experience listening to decipher what they are hearing.

Then there is the gambling & corruption of Solaris itself, heck, they used to not account for the skill of the Pilot IIRC & it was only based on a basic Mech v Mech fight card.
So you would have Ace Gunslingers fighting Rookies & that would slew the odds makers & only after some time did they start to account for Who the Pilot was and what their Military Record & Fight Record were when making betting odds.   This is exactly the what you were talking about w/ 3 Mike Tysons, well not exactly, but point is they didn't used to track it at all.  Now they do but its far from perfect. 
Then again, Solaris might intentionally not be giving out the most perfectly accurate data on the mechs since anyone watching the broadcast could be conveying that same info back to the opponent.
Heck, we have a story in the original Shrapnel where just changing the radio frequency allowed 2 opponents to discuss privately w/o anyone from the games listening, and then there was the sabotage/rigging IIRC in both the Justin Xiang Novels & the Black Thorns novel.  So its not like everything on Solaris is on the up & up & nothing every happens that the gaming commission doesn't know about.

Having a basic sensor profile but NOT a break down, part by part, of each mech keeps some of those odds makers guessing still.
And a big Rifleman is still a Rifleman.  There are enough customs on Solaris & across the IS that some minor cosmetic differences might just add to the "rumors".
Heck the Solaris Set even gives you rules for how much custom work is going on with tables & rolls to point out how often you are NOT fighting a "Stock" TRO mech.

Finally we have Noton's own story from a while back where IIRC he thinks to himself about how he has 2 different mechs.
To me, that little tidbit just adds a more wiggle room to the "some evidence" part.

Because maybe one week the "Rifleman" seems to trigger at a different pressure per step than his previous 2 weeks.

Maybe he only needed the "Special" one for when he was dealing with a particularly difficult fight.
Say an Elite Pilot in an Atlas....... compared to say an Elite+Warhammer-6R  or  Regular+Stalker-3F.

If he's only trotting out in the tricked out model occasionally, that would be "Some Evidence". 
The very fact that the sensors read funny only sometimes might lead many to think its a sensor problem & not that this guy owns 2 wildly different Riflemen.
Isn't that basically a plot part to like every infiltration seen in every movie ever?  The sensor goes wonky for a minute & then gets ignored as a "glitch".

Even keeping the speed the same for an 85 ton mech nets you the same armor as a Bmer & 1 more SHS than the Rifleman.
Going w/ the same engine as the Rifleman & a flat 80 tons gives you a slower but maxed out Armor w/ near full Alpha ability in SHS using just Intro tech.

Those TC quirks would help for sure, Noton being 0/0 pilot would help, only facing Regular 4/5 would help, and even with all that, I'm still not sure I'm buying a 7.5 tons of Armor surviving against assault mechs for 7 years of fighting w/o getting pasted.

I have no doubt Noton was a bad arse, but that Solaris Set line & his own comment about a 2nd Mech makes me think the idea of some sort of tonnage increase was likely.
As I originally stated up thread, I just felt like that piece was ignored & actually, you basically confirmed that.  So to me, that is disappointing.
Doubly so when those computers are from other mechs that he would also face at times, so when those other mechs were faced, like the Stalker, they would have had the same advantages so its not really giving Noton an edge to explain the 7 year streak.


Literally anybody can say "some evidence".

There are people who claim some bits of weird looking industrial slag are "evidence" of alien spaceships.
I wasn't aware the Solaris 7 set giving a full write up of the Planet, the games, & the Champions or Noton's own monologue was the same as some random farmer seeing lights in the sky & claiming aliens.
Would Billy Bob in his basement in Kansas w/ his sound recording equipment get his "evidence" included on the Kansas Bureau of Tourism Visitors Guide Website?
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #25 on: 01 December 2021, 20:53:30 »
I wasn't aware the Solaris 7 set giving a full write up of the Planet, the games, & the Champions or Noton's own monologue was the same as some random farmer seeing lights in the sky & claiming aliens.
Would Billy Bob in his basement in Kansas w/ his sound recording equipment get his "evidence" included on the Kansas Bureau of Tourism Visitors Guide Website?

By Billy Bob in his basement, you of course mean senators, billionaire aerospace developers, and the government sponsored research they get funding for?  :D

Because if not...

(mods, that's as far as I will go on that, I promise!)

Unspecified "evidence" is meaningless, regardless of appeals to authority.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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nckestrel

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #26 on: 01 December 2021, 21:03:16 »
It then goes on to say "In Addition, some Evidenceexists that Noton's mech weighed considerably more & had been upgraded to 80-90 tons like the Marauder-II with extra armor.

What was the evidence?  If it was clear evidence, it wouldn't be a question any more. 


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Marveryn

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #27 on: 01 December 2021, 21:08:48 »
The part about it being a basic 3N that never sat well with me is the Solaris Boxed set notation about evidence suggesting the mech was closer to 80+ tons.
  I assume that is arena seismic sensors. If its stomping around triggering heavier foot steps than 60 tons then it should be more than 60 tons.

This was well before the Rifleman-II was introduced into the game, so whether they call it a stripped down RFL-3N2 chassis or if it started as a 3N that got the "Marauder-II / Centurion-Maximus" treatment, either way, that quote makes me think it should be heavier.

I'm all for quirks & other items too for it to be special & last 7 full years as the champ.   Just wish all that somehow covered the "we know it was heavier" quote.

i never mind the rifleman as we had in the same book a 50ton mech achieve  it.  to me it just show at the time mech were so sparse that mech fought in that time were not assault and tended to the lower end heavy

Middcore

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #28 on: 01 December 2021, 23:17:27 »
i never mind the rifleman as we had in the same book a 50ton mech achieve  it. to me it just show at the time mech were so sparse that mech fought in that time were not assault and tended to the lower end heavy

Yeah, they weren't, though. The "Mad Max" stylings of the very early source material had already been cast aside by that time.

I also don't think there's any explicit statement that Justin exclusively piloted his Centurion on his run to the championship.

Crimson Dawn

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #29 on: 01 December 2021, 23:24:31 »
Well Justin's first fight was in a vindicator I believe and his final fights were in that rifleman as I recall so yea he did not do all of his fights on Solaris in a centurion.

 

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