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Author Topic: Legend-Killer's abilities?  (Read 11602 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #60 on: 05 December 2021, 15:09:13 »
Noton also comments that Justin almost took him down.  In a Valkyrie.  If he was piloting a SLDF-tech 80 ton machine and almost lost to a 30 ton introtech machine that relies on a LRM system for main damage...then I'd call him a pretty pathetic mechwarrior.  And we know he's not.

Except that even IF there is an 80 ton Rifleman, we don't know that that is the version that he took to the Kittery Training Battalion attack.

It could have easily been the base 3N model that he would have had based on his own monologue about having 2 mechs.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #61 on: 05 December 2021, 15:29:56 »
Sure.  He uses the easy to notice 80 ton 'mech during televised Solaris duels, but not on a deniable operations black bag attack.

And he does this because...

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #62 on: 05 December 2021, 15:52:45 »
It was suggested in the Rifleman II fluff, that there was more than one Legend-Killer.  Yet Rumor.

Sorry, to bring it up.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #63 on: 05 December 2021, 15:53:52 »
Your the one that pointed out he admitted to Justin almost taking him down in a Valkyrie.

Who knows. 
Maybe he only uses the supped up model for those particularly difficult fights that test even his skills. 
Like those Assault Mechs he's known for winning....Stalkers, Battlemasters, & Atlases, oh my.

Hell, Maybe the mech wasn't EITHER of his & it was provided for him by the contractor that hired him....... like providing the weapons for an assassin after they arrive via commercial flight & didn't bring their own gear.

Maybe he didn't want to risk the supped up model taking damage on the black bag mission against an entire battalion of mechs, Stingers or not, live combat can go bad at any time.  Maybe he took enough to get the job done but didn't want to risk the RNG/Fate/Luck causing him to loose the 1 of a kind model or have battle damage let the secret get out that he has a 2nd mech.

Your saying he CANT have a bigger mech because he WOULD have used it & wouldn't have almost lost.
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Nothing says he MUST have used it.   
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Calfor

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #64 on: 05 December 2021, 16:24:15 »
In my opinion it’s pretty simple. Gray was fighting during the run down of the 3rd SW, prime scavenger time for tech. I find it hard to imagine, as well as implausible, the mech stables would be using brand new off the line mechs. Most were probably a hodge podge of actuators, armor plating and circuits due to having to be repaired frequently. Not to mention any structural damage which couldn’t be fixed because of lack of parts, knowledge etc. According to canon assault mechs were rare, with factories only producing a few a year of some types. I’m sure most of the Houses would contract the entire lots of assaults for the war effort. So if any did make it to the arenas they wouldn’t be in top shape. 
Gray showing up in a brand new Rifleman would have an instant advantage just in targeting alone. With his abilities, knowledge of the terrains and having a brand new mech, it doesn’t seem too wild he did so well.
« Last Edit: 05 December 2021, 20:51:32 by Calfor »

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #65 on: 06 December 2021, 02:15:38 »
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Nothing says he MUST have used it.

And yet, the only "Evidence" that he had anything other than a RFL-3N is people insisting that there's NO WAY he could have won in the games like he did while using one.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #66 on: 06 December 2021, 02:44:03 »
Which is speculation that shows up in officially published material, not just fan posts of forums.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #67 on: 06 December 2021, 12:41:18 »
Which is speculation that shows up in officially published material, not just fan posts of forums.

Speculation put into the published material because of the fan posts.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #68 on: 06 December 2021, 12:49:14 »
The Rifleman II didn't even exist when the Warrior Trilogy was written.

Gray had plot armor, that is all there is to it.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #69 on: 06 December 2021, 13:56:48 »
The Rifleman II didn't even exist when the Warrior Trilogy was written.

Gray had plot armor, that is all there is to it.

Plot armor, and maybe he was the Michael Jordan of dueling on Solaris.  Think of Jordan's interviews from The Last Dance.

"He was driving an assault mech, so I took that personally...."  Rest is history.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #70 on: 06 December 2021, 17:26:34 »
Plot armor, and maybe he was the Michael Jordan of dueling on Solaris.  Think of Jordan's interviews from The Last Dance.

"He was driving an assault mech, so I took that personally...."  Rest is history.
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Iceweb

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #71 on: 07 December 2021, 22:55:03 »
Not that I'm saying this was it, but if a mech in that time frame had access to some sort of access to early prototype MASC or TSM and was moving faster than would have been expected given the size and tech base, could that have glitched the sensors tracking the foot falls enough that some tech mentioned something to someone and he leaked the theory that the mech was heavier than the size to explain it, and some people ran with it in universe? 

We do know the mynomer and stuff was customized.  Or maybe he just had a SPA (speed demon maybe?) that let him go faster?   Or maybe they copied some stuff over from a Mercury(?) that was found in a SL cache to get some bursts of speed, but it got damaged or worn out by the time it passed to another person and that is why no one ever said the LK had MASC equipped.   

I think something like that and some friend of a friend deciding it meant it was heavier than it should have been on the sensors is more likely than it actually being heavier and no one being able to notice. 

That said I would much rather be more maneuverable in a Solaris fight than increasing my weight all things equal.  Maneuver is very important, see Valk almost taking him out.   

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #72 on: 08 December 2021, 02:12:18 »
I'm not sure how increased speed would cause sensors to think that Legend Killer was heavier than it really was.

It's not like mech sensors routinely mistook the Dragon or Quickdraw as heavier mechs.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #73 on: 08 December 2021, 02:40:20 »
Also that's trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist in the canon.

The exact nature of the "evidence" is never stated. The idea that sensors in the arena detected something anomalous is purely fan speculation.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Apocal

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #74 on: 08 December 2021, 03:15:44 »
Speculation put into the published material because of the fan posts.

That's what happens when there is such a large disconnect between fiction and table performance.

edit:
I don't know why "Legend Killer is a LosTech special" is more popular headcanon than "Norton is an amazing pilot" though.
« Last Edit: 08 December 2021, 03:29:14 by Apocal »

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #75 on: 08 December 2021, 07:36:08 »
And I see Hellraiser has beaten me to it.  :-[  But yeah, it's hard (to the point of Impossible) for "the three characters with access to the ‘Mech" to have internal Monologues about Technology that hadn't been created for the GAME yet.  Like wondering why people in the 1800's weren't writing stories, complaining about the lack of cell phone service along the Oregon Trail so they could call for assistance.   :D

Fair enough, but I didn't really mean a Star Trek style info dump on the miracle of the ER large laser. More "Holy crap is that a Star League gizmo replacing the regular old widget!? I can't lose!"

They seem much more: "Hey check it out: a Rifleman". If Legend Killer was supposed to be full of unique and secret upgrades, they sure seem pretty blase about it. I mean, we are subjected to an entire paragraph about what a big deal it was for Justin to fire his LRM5 in a non-standard way during his first fight. I doubt Stackpole could have resisted talking about how he took advantage of LK's special abilities at the end.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #76 on: 08 December 2021, 09:26:06 »
Funny thing about the Rifleman II being possible hidden Legend-Killer.  We don't have actual picture of the 'Mech. For all we know it looks like in size and height, just mass is heavier fit all that Star League goodies.
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Qoonpooka

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #77 on: 08 December 2021, 09:34:14 »
The Rifleman II didn't even exist when the Warrior Trilogy was written.

Gray had plot armor, that is all there is to it.

The thing about Plot Armor: people say it like it shows a lack of imagination.  People talk about how 99.99% of the time an RFL-3N just gets dumpstered.

But here's the thing about stories: The 99.99% of RFL-3Ns getting dumpstered aren't interesting. Nobody watches an RFL-3N cook its own ammo off from a heat spike and think "Huh, didn't see that coming!"

We have stories about edge cases because they're edge cases - that's what makes them interesting. That's what takes LK from a statistic to "no shit, there he was..."

"Plot Armor" is just the Survivorship Bias expressing itself in "history." Protagonists in stories are lucky/plot-armored by selection bias. The RFL-3N is a common design. Solaris VII is a big place. For every Gray there's a thousand statistics.

But consider the tale of those statistics.

Once upon a time there was a Rifleman pilot.
He got into a fight.
He died.
The end.

Cool story, bro.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #78 on: 08 December 2021, 10:08:20 »
I don't know why "Legend Killer is a LosTech special" is more popular headcanon than "Norton is an amazing pilot" though.

Because people like to be able to replicate events in the fiction on the tabletop or at least frame them in tabletop terms(for example, this very thread), and advanced mechs are a lot easier to do than super pilots, especially before we got things like SPAs and SCAs.
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Apocal

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #79 on: 08 December 2021, 10:59:52 »
The thing about Plot Armor: people say it like it shows a lack of imagination.  People talk about how 99.99% of the time an RFL-3N just gets dumpstered.

But here's the thing about stories: The 99.99% of RFL-3Ns getting dumpstered aren't interesting. Nobody watches an RFL-3N cook its own ammo off from a heat spike and think "Huh, didn't see that coming!"

We have stories about edge cases because they're edge cases - that's what makes them interesting. That's what takes LK from a statistic to "no shit, there he was..."

"Plot Armor" is just the Survivorship Bias expressing itself in "history." Protagonists in stories are lucky/plot-armored by selection bias. The RFL-3N is a common design. Solaris VII is a big place. For every Gray there's a thousand statistics.

But consider the tale of those statistics.

Once upon a time there was a Rifleman pilot.
He got into a fight.
He died.
The end.

Cool story, bro.

Survivor bias might be a thing but there was no indication in the story that Norton was driving an objectively inferior mech compared to the rest of his competitors. And it wasn't a one-off case or regarded as exceptional (in the story) that his mech was a Rifleman. Norton was simply the Solaris Open Weight Champion for a record-setting length of time while driving a Rifleman, something that players (on the table) would find almost impossible to replicate. Pulp sensibilities abound in the story for sure, but they didn't extend to his ride.

Since that contradicts the table so glaringly, it forces players to interrogate the worldbuilding for an answer -- "How did Norton manage that?" "It doesn't say..." "Well, how could he have managed it?"

edit: and I just realized for the first time ever that his name is Noton, not Norton (no R).

Because people like to be able to replicate events in the fiction on the tabletop or at least frame them in tabletop terms(for example, this very thread), and advanced mechs are a lot easier to do than super pilots, especially before we got things like SPAs and SCAs.

Oh, I agree that people want to be able to replicate the stuff in fiction. Maybe my post should have been clearer about that. But I'd always thought there were provisions for super pilots back then. Didn't Piloting and Gunnery scores go into the negatives in some of the early scenario books or did that post-date the Warrior trilogy?

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #80 on: 08 December 2021, 11:06:40 »
They did, but let's be honest - it's a Rifleman. No amount of insane gunnery or piloting skill will keep one of those alive if a regular or veteran-rated pilot in a Warhammer or Marauder can score hits with any reliability, nor are you going to kill one quickly enough with a Rifleman, even if you have a 100% hit rate. That's where fancy SPAs come in.
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Apocal

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #81 on: 08 December 2021, 11:10:05 »
They did, but let's be honest - it's a Rifleman. No amount of insane gunnery or piloting skill will keep one of those alive if a regular or veteran-rated pilot in a Warhammer or Marauder can score hits with any reliability, nor are you going to kill one quickly enough with a Rifleman, even if you have a 100% hit rate. That's where fancy SPAs come in.

You won't find me disagreeing.

edit: Although it is darkly funny to me that if it were any other variant of the Rifleman, people wouldn't be so surprised.
« Last Edit: 08 December 2021, 11:13:27 by Apocal »

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #82 on: 08 December 2021, 11:30:40 »
Funny thing about the Rifleman II being possible hidden Legend-Killer.  We don't have actual picture of the 'Mech. For all we know it looks like in size and height, just mass is heavier fit all that Star League goodies.

This is raised a lot, but it doesn't hold.  Mass by itself doesn't do anything (except in the case of giving you more internal structure points).  It has to be spent on something, and that something produces detectable, verifiable results that would be noticed.  More guns, more heat dissipation, more armour, top speed: that's all quantifiable.  It's simply impossible that nobody watching the fights for years on end failed to notice that he fired more or took way more hits or what have you.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #83 on: 08 December 2021, 12:21:06 »
This is raised a lot, but it doesn't hold.  Mass by itself doesn't do anything (except in the case of giving you more internal structure points).  It has to be spent on something, and that something produces detectable, verifiable results that would be noticed.  More guns, more heat dissipation, more armour, top speed: that's all quantifiable.  It's simply impossible that nobody watching the fights for years on end failed to notice that he fired more or took way more hits or what have you.
Not exactly, it could use the same guns, the heat levels could be faked, the top speed doesn't need to be altered.
The improved toughness is likely the most noticeable thing (after the tonnage) but Solaris doesn't seem to be the most healthiest place to ask many questions....
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #84 on: 08 December 2021, 13:09:52 »
Not exactly, it could use the same guns, the heat levels could be faked, the top speed doesn't need to be altered.
The improved toughness is likely the most noticeable thing (after the tonnage) but Solaris doesn't seem to be the most healthiest place to ask many questions....

Heat levels can't be faked: heat output is measurable and is in fact watched for during matches as it makes for good commentary.  While there's no cause to specifically use seismic scanners in open matches, it's pretty amazing that he never came across a set in a match, especially once rumours started that maybe there was something about his mech.  Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".

If someone in a professional sporting event performs far in excess of expectations, "not asking questions" is the precise opposite of what happens.  Scrutiny doubles, because people want to know what's going on, one part for legalities (are they cheating--somewhat less important in this case, where the open circuit seems to have few rules) and one part financial (how do I know where to put my money).  Solaris is anything but a live-and-let-live environment.  Not asking questions doesn't hold in a place where vast fortunes are at stake and billions are watching for years at a time.  It's the single-most scrutinized combat venue in the Inner Sphere.

The superweight mech argument presupposes that half the Inner Sphere is blind (including everyone who ever seems to have driven it), sensors don't work, and every possible lucky break in terms of avoiding detection came down on Noton's side for years at a time.  There's a good reason I think why the rumours have only been rumours and unstated "evidence": as soon as you actually say "it was this specifically" it can easily be shown not to hold.  There's no standard advantage given by existing TechManual-type gear that can't be measured, Solaris has the most rigorous measuring capability in existence, and Noton fought for years in that environment.
« Last Edit: 08 December 2021, 13:36:01 by Xotl »
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #85 on: 08 December 2021, 13:23:57 »
... this is the same universe that had Cassie Suthorn take down a Wolverine on foot and unarmed, I find the idea Grey Noton dodging fire like Morgan Kell and getting a lucky shot on a assault mech like Star Captain Joanna far more likely in the world of BTU fiction than the idea Grey Noton was piloting a mech that was not even created by writers until years later that has the same mass as a Awesome or Zeus, more advance than anything on the battlefield at that time but mistaken for a very common mech thats only 5 tons heavier than a Shadowhawk... or maybe I can convince people my Stalker STK-3FB is actually a Catapult CPLT-C1.
« Last Edit: 08 December 2021, 13:33:17 by SteelRaven »
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #86 on: 08 December 2021, 13:50:34 »
Heat levels can't be faked: heat output is measurable and is in fact watched for during matches: it makes for good commentary.
What is so difficult in deliberately putting out more heat?

Quote
While there's no cause to specifically use seismic scanners in open matches, it's pretty amazing that he never came across a set and tripped it, especially once rumours started that maybe there was something about his mech.  Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".
Mechs have a lot of empty space so extra armor does not need to change the silhouette.

Quote
If someone in a professional sporting event performs far in excess of expectations, "not asking questions" is the precise opposite of what happens.  Scrutiny doubles, because people want to know what's going on, one part for legalities (are they cheating--somewhat less important in this case, where the open circuit seems to have few rules) and one part financial (how do I know where to put my money).  Solaris is anything but a live-and-let-live environment.  Not asking questions doesn't hold in a place where vast fortunes are at stake and billions are watching for years at a time.  It's the single-most scrutinized combat venue in the Inner Sphere.
Like with most professional sports that involve large amount of gambling, there is a facade of fair play, but as far as the people in charge are concerned the gambler is just there to be milked. The known diversity of customization and maintenance quality just makes it even more easy to get away with manipulating matches.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #87 on: 08 December 2021, 13:54:47 »
Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".

WELL . . . the mass to volume ratio for most mechs is way off, like the chocolate bunny you think is solid but has a huge void in the center.

BUT aside from that . . . yeah, the easiest answer is the right one.  Noton had a few tweaks for his Rifleman, but was that good to survive- and unlike a lot of other folks, walked away when he was on top.  It is like the rabid fans who always insist their team was robbed rather than realizing *coughOkStatecough* their running back was actually inches short of the goal line as can obviously be seen with the pylon-cam.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #88 on: 08 December 2021, 15:09:47 »
What is so difficult in deliberately putting out more heat?

Again, you need to consider specific scenarios.  It's either consistently less heat (because of double heat sinks) or markedly more heat at specific times (because of advanced weaponry).  Those are both specific usage cases that are measurable and would be identified almost instantly.  You could argue that there was a balanced scenario (higher heat weapons but the mech is set up so that it's perfectly compensated for by double heat sinks and so manages to look like a Rifleman thermally in terms of general combat performance) but all such weapons have their own measurable effects separate from heat (rate of fire, range, damage, basic appearance of the shot) and are again detectable.

Quote
Mechs have a lot of empty space so extra armor does not need to change the silhouette.

That's not true.  There's no literal tons of just empty void sitting inside every mech waiting to be stuffed with whatever but that people never bother with for some unknown reason, that can also then be filled with slabs of armour plating with no change on movement, visual profile, or any other detectable criteria (let alone the raw ability to take damage, like shrugging off an AC 20 or some other measure of known damage that centuries of combat has taught us a Rifleman can't absorb).  I mean, yes, the mass to volume ratio on mechs is ridiculous, which is simply a failure of the original game designers because they were just making a game with giant robots (already an absurd premise).  Lore stating that much of the materials used in mech construction is high volume, low weight helps address this, but the ultimate answer is not "every mech is built contrary to all known principles of war machine design with vast hollow spaces waiting to be filled with caramel nougat or whatever".

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Like with most professional sports that involve large amount of gambling, there is a facade of fair play, but as far as the people in charge are concerned the gambler is just there to be milked. The known diversity of customization and maintenance quality just makes it even more easy to get away with manipulating matches.

Leaving aside that I don't believe there's any canon basis for this, sport owners don't profit off gambling in any well-regulated sport; they're actually forbidden from doing so because it's an obvious conflict of interest and make their money off the matches themselves.  Doubtless there's corruption, the occasional thrown fight, and so on, but rigging matches all the time kills interest in your sport.  In any case, I'm not sure how that actually addresses anything I said with regards to observation and measurement of concrete effects (by fans and gamblers alike) and their effects on matches.  Again, going from generalities to specifics, we can't address the many absurdities of the secret Noton supermech argument by adding "vast conspiracy to fool billions of observers that took place over years and dozens of matches in many different arenas against many different opponents featuring the most famous and scrutinized fighter in the league".  Who is manipulating all these matches, how are they getting away with it every time (and there's ever so many times), and why do we have no proof of its existence?
« Last Edit: 08 December 2021, 15:12:30 by Xotl »
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Maingunnery

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #89 on: 08 December 2021, 15:41:50 »
Again, you need to consider specific scenarios.  It's either consistently less heat (because of double heat sinks) or markedly more heat at specific times (because of advanced weaponry).  Those are both specific usage cases that are measurable and would be identified almost instantly.  You could argue that there was a balanced scenario (higher heat weapons but the mech is set up so that it's perfectly compensated for by double heat sinks and so manages to look like a Rifleman thermally in terms of general combat performance) but all such weapons have their own measurable effects separate from heat (rate of fire, range, damage, basic appearance of the shot) and are again detectable.
So you are assuming hotter weapons?


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That's not true.  There's no literal tons of just empty void sitting inside every mech waiting to be stuffed with whatever but that people never bother with for some unknown reason, that can also then be filled with slabs of armour plating with no change on movement, visual profile, or any other detectable criteria (let alone the raw ability to take damage, like shrugging off an AC 20 or some other measure of known damage that centuries of combat has taught us a Rifleman can't absorb).  I mean, yes, the mass to volume ratio on mechs is ridiculous, which is simply a failure of the original game designers because they were just making a game with giant robots (already an absurd premise).  Lore stating that much of the materials used in mech construction is high volume, low weight helps address this, but the ultimate answer is not "every mech is built contrary to all known principles of war machine design with vast hollow spaces waiting to be filled with caramel nougat or whatever".
Armor isn't some giant piece of equipment, it is in general a layer, making it thicker on the inside shouldn't be a problem.

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Leaving aside that I don't believe there's any canon basis for this, sport owners don't profit off gambling in any well-regulated sport; they're actually forbidden from doing so because it's an obvious conflict of interest and make their money off the matches themselves.  Doubtless there's corruption, the occasional thrown fight, and so on, but rigging matches all the time kills interest in your sport.  In any case, I'm not sure how that actually addresses anything I said with regards to observation and measurement of concrete effects (by fans and gamblers alike) and their effects on matches.
Fans and gamblers carrying large equipment.... that is just not going to happen, that is just asking for obvious cheating.

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Again, going from generalities to specifics, we can't address the many absurdities of the secret Noton supermech argument by adding "vast conspiracy to fool billions of observers that took place over years and dozens of matches in many different arenas against many different opponents featuring the most famous and scrutinized fighter in the league".  Who is manipulating all these matches, how are they getting away with it every time (and there's ever so many times), and why do we have no proof of its existence?
Human nature and economy will insure that there will be somebody there to extract more money, be it a mafia or the sports leaders themselves. Also they wouldn't need to rigging matches all the time just a couple of fixes can give the maximum bang-for-buck.
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