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Author Topic: Legend-Killer's abilities?  (Read 11592 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #90 on: 08 December 2021, 16:10:38 »
Heat levels can't be faked: heat output is measurable and is in fact watched for during matches as it makes for good commentary.  While there's no cause to specifically use seismic scanners in open matches, it's pretty amazing that he never came across a set in a match, especially once rumours started that maybe there was something about his mech.  Hell, even armour plate isn't invisible: it's very obvious when something is up-armoured.  You can't just add literal tons of armour and then expect the silhouette to be the same.  It would be spotted instantly: mass doesn't just "go somewhere".

Not to mention that when the Rifleman takes an AC20 round from an Atlas to the right arm and there's still armor left, people are going to stand up and notice.  There are enough people who know how much armor a Rifleman has on its arms and know that it absolutely can't take a direct hit there without coming close to outright losing the limb.
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Xotl

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #91 on: 08 December 2021, 16:27:36 »
So you are assuming hotter weapons?

You brought up heat, so yes, I was (along with its dissipation).  If you were talking about some other notable source of heat that would have any effect on our scenario I'd be curious to hear it.

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Armor isn't some giant piece of equipment, it is in general a layer, making it thicker on the inside shouldn't be a problem.


I already addressed this: this isn't how war machines in general or battlemechs in specific work.  And it is some giant piece of equipment, if you're talking enough to be the key to Noton's long-term success.  And again, there's no evidence for this, either in terms of general references of specifics in terms of battlefield endurance and weight detection.  As Ogre mention, all armour does is let you shrug off more damage, but that itself is detectable, and so overall the armour scenario just creates several more problems to address the one problem.

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Fans and gamblers carrying large equipment.... that is just not going to happen, that is just asking for obvious cheating.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here; I didn't mention any equipment carried by spectators, the vast majority of whom would be offworld watching feeds rather than live.

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Human nature and economy will insure that there will be somebody there to extract more money, be it a mafia or the sports leaders themselves. Also they wouldn't need to rigging matches all the time just a couple of fixes can give the maximum bang-for-buck.

If we're only talking about a few matches--and yet again, ignoring that we have no evidence for this--that no longer explains Noton's success.  He has to fight fair most of the time, and then how does he get away with it without the crutch of whomever is fixing these victories for him?  We're trying to explain the key to his continual, long-term success, not posit on how it might be possible to fix the occasional match.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #92 on: 08 December 2021, 19:09:03 »
And no amount of speculation on Noton's success in a rifleman explains Philip Capet's success in a rifleman.
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klarg1

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #93 on: 08 December 2021, 23:07:43 »
They did, but let's be honest - it's a Rifleman. No amount of insane gunnery or piloting skill will keep one of those alive if a regular or veteran-rated pilot in a Warhammer or Marauder can score hits with any reliability, nor are you going to kill one quickly enough with a Rifleman, even if you have a 100% hit rate. That's where fancy SPAs come in.

I am 100% behind throwing SPAs and maybe a couple of positive quirks at the problem.

It’s advanced tech and increased weight class solutions that don’t sit right with me. Do people get this worked up over the magical exploits of Grayson Carlyle’s Shadowhawk?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #94 on: 08 December 2021, 23:16:08 »
It’s advanced tech and increased weight class solutions that don’t sit right with me. Do people get this worked up over the magical exploits of Grayson Carlyle’s Shadowhawk?

Yes, but usually it's chalked up to bad writing.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #95 on: 09 December 2021, 01:53:20 »
And no amount of speculation on Noton's success in a rifleman explains Philip Capet's success in a rifleman.
yep.

given the first hand looks we got, i'd guess that most of the pilots in the big leagues of solaris durign the succession wars pilot mediums and heavies.. and references to the use of assaults by champions reflect not their standard mechs but rather their rides during their final championship matches.. which are prone to increased showmanship and special arrangements by sponsors and stables.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #96 on: 09 December 2021, 02:04:07 »
Keep in mind that Noton had his record-setting string of championships during the technologically regressed late Third Succession War period.  Another factor that affected the matches during this era was that the Battle Commission was notoriously corrupt - fixing matches and helping organized crime launder money through gambling receipts. 

So, we have many possible routes to his exceptional performance:

1) Normal Rifleman, but he has a list of SPAs as long as Jaime Wolf's
2) Tricked out Rifleman with LosTech that doesn't change the mass, but might include superior actuators, targeting system jammers, double heat sinks, or other tech that gives the pilot an edge by filling up more of the critical slots.
3) Normal Rifleman, but Noton's mob connections were instrumental in securing his victories
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #97 on: 09 December 2021, 02:55:08 »
Does anyone else remember the old Solaris VII boxed set rules?
Could the delay system explain the superiority of a Rifleman's weapon loadout against other 'Mechs? I remember
that it made machine guns insanely powerful because they had a delay of 0, and so could be fired every turn. If a Rifleman could fire the ACs more often than an Atlas' AC/20, that could explain a lot.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #98 on: 09 December 2021, 08:10:20 »
Does anyone else remember the old Solaris VII boxed set rules?
Could the delay system explain the superiority of a Rifleman's weapon loadout against other 'Mechs? I remember
that it made machine guns insanely powerful because they had a delay of 0, and so could be fired every turn. If a Rifleman could fire the ACs more often than an Atlas' AC/20, that could explain a lot.

Not really. They would have significantly magnified both the heat issues of the large lasers and the minimum range penalties of the autocannons. I think AC5 might have had a good ROF, but not nearly as good as the machine gun.

You could cook up custom rules which shave off some heat or shorten the minimums. That would go a long way towards giving an advantage.

RifleMech

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #99 on: 10 December 2021, 02:01:31 »
I think it is possible to disguise am 80 ton mech as a 60 ton one.

FF Armor's bulk is internal. The Thorn has enough internal space that tech can climb into the limbs to work on it. After many years of fighting, armor is going to be so patched it may not look "stock" any more. Add in cosmetics and glancing blows and it could be that Noton's Rifleman had more armor.

Energy weapons can dial down their heat. That also dials down their damage but it doesn't effect the range. "Lucky"  long range shots would wear down armor and additional heat sinks would cover for the increased heat when the dial is turned up up close.

Autocannon sizes are all over the place. Add in cosmetics and an AC/10 could look like an AC/5. Improved targeting helps with loss of range and heavier hits can be put down as direct blows. More heat sinks would also mask the heavier heat. The larger size of the mech would also grant more ammo so the number of shots remain the same.

There's also customization. If the cockpit systems were customized out of different mechs. There's also something different about the myomers used. So why couldn't other systems be customized as well? Look at all the quirks that weapons can have. Maybe he was using a custom weapon made to look stock? It could just be a special type of armor. Some armor types are fluffed to be better than others. Unless it's analyzed, how would anyone know it isn't stock armor?

Also how much tech was created on Solaris VII? Any LosTech included in Noton's Riflemech, could have been limited to his Riflemech. There could be something special about the myomer that has a special effect with a hidden command. It could be an ECM that played with sensors making his mech seem lighter. It could be anything or nothing. Noton isn't talking and his techs aren't talking.

I'm not saying the Rifleman was 80 tons. Just that it is technologically possible. It's also possible that the Rifleman was 60 tons and still completely customized. It's also possible that Noton was just that good. Personally, I think its a mix of being that good and some customization.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #100 on: 10 December 2021, 02:07:27 »
One of the justifications for many of the Project Phoenix designs, as well as the AS-7K2 Atlas, is that using Ferro-Fibrous armor instead of standard plate does visibly change the exterior look because FF armor can't be shaped as easily.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #101 on: 10 December 2021, 03:48:26 »
Does anyone else remember the old Solaris VII boxed set rules?
Could the delay system explain the superiority of a Rifleman's weapon loadout against other 'Mechs? I remember
that it made machine guns insanely powerful because they had a delay of 0, and so could be fired every turn. If a Rifleman could fire the ACs more often than an Atlas' AC/20, that could explain a lot.

Someone made a post starring the Rifleman under S7 rules:
Every S7 turn is 1/4 of a BattleTech turn; the number of heatsinks stays the same and the work the same (i.e. -1 Heat per Single HS/Turn). So my lovely Rifleman fires an AC/5 (+8 Heat) and runs (+2 Heat) and at the end of the turn I shed 10 heat.  So far, I've been running and gunning for 2.5 seconds.  So, in true Dunkirk-style, by the time my BattleTech self catches up to me, I still get to do three more things. 

Next turn (looking towards halfway through a BattleTech turn), I'm feeling froggy, so I'll unload a heavy laser and come to a bloody halt.  At present, I'm at null on the heat scale. I jack myself up 32 points on the heat scale and immediately explode.  Wait, now my heat scale goes up to 120.  And I get to deduct 10 heat for my fabulous, Sphere-renowned cooling system.  So I end the turn with +22 on the heat-scale.

Now into Turn 3 (3/4 of the way through a BattleTech turn), I'm a bit slower (-1 MP; just look at the standard heat scale and multiply everything by 4; that is literally all it is), but still happy I'm driving a Kallon original and not some Red Devil knockoff piece of trash. I figure, Hell, why not? and light off two medium lasers at my buddy leering at me from the other side of the arena as I backpedal.  That adds +25 Heat (2 Medium Lasersx12+1 Walking).  Now I am looking toasty with (22+25)-10 Heat, leaving me at +37 on the scale.

Now, on Turn 4, I'm slower -1 MP), and more dull-witted (+1 THM) than I was before.  But because I got it like that, my opponent in his Archer wants to take a breather too. So, on Turn 4, we rest.  By the end of it, I'll be back down to +27 on the heat-scale.

In BattleTech-scale, I've moved just about 3 hexes total (two forward, one back) and fired an AC/5, a Large Laser, and two Medium Lasers. to be charitable, we'll say I've Walked as well.  When two souls become one, I would have generated +17 heat, -10 HS, for a total of 7 heat on the heat-scale. Sound familiar?


In other words, this is all the same thing, just hyperdetailed. Energy weapons aren't nerfed, nothing is broken that already wasn't in standard BattleTech rules (because **they are the same rules**) and the God Mode machine gun reaches out to 12 hexes (at their longest, +5 THM range) which is a +0 or +1 THM for nearly every other weapon in the game.

I get that hearing "Your Warhammer just built up 80 heat for firing its two PPCs" can be mildly disconcerting.  The smart MechWarrior will then spend some time evading and setting up some advantageous physical altercation instead of getting silly and keep driving it ever upwards.  Because after three more S7 turns (four, total), you'll only have +8 Heat on the 'Scale, just as you would have +2 in BattleTech.

The Heat Scale is there to be ridden like a roller coaster, not feared like a wild mustang. It's a tool like anything else in this game.

It was a bit better because of the refire rules but not really dominant or anything.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #102 on: 10 December 2021, 13:13:36 »
I'm not sure how increased speed would cause sensors to think that Legend Killer was heavier than it really was.

It's not like mech sensors routinely mistook the Dragon or Quickdraw as heavier mechs.

Again I didn't say the sensors mistook it for heavier, just that they noticed something non standard for a stock rifleman (aka faster speed) 
then the Tech watching it said out loud "Huh that's weird something on the sensor is off." 
The Tech's boss asked him what is off? And the Tech responded "I dunno maybe the sensor is glitching, or it's moving faster, or it could be heavier than it should be but that last one makes no sense, boss." 

Another guy in the room hears It could be heavier than it should be, and mentioned it to his drinking buddies at the bar the next night, leaving out the rest of the details.  His drinking buddies get all excited about it and press for details, that he expands on through bad memory and drunken exaggerations.  The drinking buddies take it as gospel and you have a viral rumor spreading through the fans that someone in the know said the sensors told them this Mech was heavier than it should have been and LK was cheating. 

None of it is true but it explains the in universe rumor.   It could even have just been a glitch in the sensor and the LK never even moved faster.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #103 on: 11 December 2021, 03:17:00 »
One of the justifications for many of the Project Phoenix designs, as well as the AS-7K2 Atlas, is that using Ferro-Fibrous armor instead of standard plate does visibly change the exterior look because FF armor can't be shaped as easily.

Which doesn't hold up to well when comparing the looks of 3025/3039 mechs and those of 3050/2750 mechs. It also doesn't change the facts that armor bulk can be internal and constantly patching armor is going to result in a different appearance so it could get disguised that way.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #104 on: 11 December 2021, 03:47:31 »
Solaris duelists are notorious for adding cosmetic modifications like spikes, etc. for greater crowd appeal.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #105 on: 11 December 2021, 16:29:21 »
It also doesn't change the facts that armor bulk can be internal and constantly patching armor is going to result in a different appearance so it could get disguised that way.

The bulk of advanced armours is depicted as internal on the game mechanics side, because external bulk is not measured in the game.  That doesn't mean mech manufacturers are just leaving pointless empty voids on their designs that waste money and make them bigger targets so that people who feel like making informal modification to their machines in the field might have an easier time of it, just as no war machine manufacturer does that today.  But even if they did do something that illogical, that's still ignoring the "how does no one notice when the Rifleman endures damage no Rifleman can endure" part.
« Last Edit: 11 December 2021, 16:38:58 by Xotl »
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #106 on: 11 December 2021, 17:28:22 »
The bulk of advanced armours is depicted as internal on the game mechanics side, because external bulk is not measured in the game.  That doesn't mean mech manufacturers are just leaving pointless empty voids on their designs that waste money and make them bigger targets so that people who feel like making informal modification to their machines in the field might have an easier time of it, just as no war machine manufacturer does that today.
Actually that isn't true, even in real-life tight armor not only makes it more difficult to modify/update the designs but also makes the armor shape more complex and difficult to manufacture/repair. 

Quote
But even if they did do something that illogical, that's still ignoring the "how does no one notice when the Rifleman endures damage no Rifleman can endure" part.
There is quite a bit of plausible deniability, lots of customization at the arenas, glancing hits, poorly maintained enemy weapons, etc. Also the audience would mostly love the spectacle.   
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #107 on: 11 December 2021, 17:34:37 »
There is quite a bit of plausible deniability, lots of customization at the arenas, glancing hits, poorly maintained enemy weapons, etc. Also the audience would mostly love the spectacle.
Are you considering the arm-chair generals, rivet counters, and actual experts in the audience? People WILL notice the difference and there isn't enough plausible deniability out there to explain it all away.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #108 on: 11 December 2021, 17:52:04 »
Are you considering the arm-chair generals, rivet counters, and actual experts in the audience?
Those will speculate even with completely normal matches, might even go full ancient aliens....
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #109 on: 11 December 2021, 18:18:30 »
But these are sporting events where every second is covered by multiple cameras from different angles that offer slo-mo instant replay.  And things like Glancing Blows will be a known factor, not an optional rule that most fights don't use.

You might be able to get away with slapping extra armor onto a Rifleman without anyone figuring out for a fight, maybe even fight fights.  You're not going to do so for 20 fights and definitely not for 100.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #110 on: 11 December 2021, 18:41:35 »
Are you considering the arm-chair generals, rivet counters, and actual experts in the audience? People WILL notice the difference and there isn't enough plausible deniability out there to explain it all away.

Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #111 on: 11 December 2021, 19:34:39 »
Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.
and the bookies, and the crime bosses. remember that one of the favorite ways for the criminal element on solaris to pay people under the table is to take bets on "sure thing" fights and give the ticket to the person. (especially if the fight is one they themselves rigged to ensure the 'right' person won)

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #112 on: 11 December 2021, 22:50:01 »
Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.
Specifically, the techs monitoring the seismic sensors throughout the arenas.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #113 on: 11 December 2021, 22:50:40 »
The bulk of advanced armours is depicted as internal on the game mechanics side, because external bulk is not measured in the game.  That doesn't mean mech manufacturers are just leaving pointless empty voids on their designs that waste money and make them bigger targets so that people who feel like making informal modification to their machines in the field might have an easier time of it, just as no war machine manufacturer does that today.  But even if they did do something that illogical, that's still ignoring the "how does no one notice when the Rifleman endures damage no Rifleman can endure" part.

I agree. That doesn't mean that there aren't spaces they could take advantage of. It also doesn't mean that armor can't be carefully placed to look like another variant. It was done on a LAM. Also the mech was repaired how many times? It isn't likely to look completely factory new without visiting the factory.

As for damage, there's glancing blows, poorly maintained weapons, poor ammo quality, and other shenanigans that could result in a Rifleman shrugging off AC/20 hits.


Those will speculate even with completely normal matches, might even go full ancient aliens....

That's it! It was aliens!

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #114 on: 19 December 2021, 22:26:15 »
Not to mention actual generals, pilots and technicians.

Devil's advocate....... Maybe it was those folks that noticed the differences in the first place?
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #115 on: 20 December 2021, 01:30:05 »
Devil's advocate....... Maybe it was those folks that noticed the differences in the first place?

And here comes the Noton's public relations: "Nothing to say, there are only aesthetic changes".

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #116 on: 20 December 2021, 06:16:26 »
Most of what I could say is in the Sarna article so I'll not repeat it here.

We know for a fact that Noton
1) won at least his first championship in a stock RFL-3N (though that doesn't say anything about the neurohelmet)...
2) ...yet at the same time thought about his other Rifleman with which, according to Noton's own inner monologue, he was going to rule over Solaris VII. It's not explained how the other Rifleman is tied to that idea, but the implication is clearly that this other Rifleman is somehow a superior machine.

As has been pointed out, if there was a souped-up Legend Killer then it was likely a hangar queen - and thus certainly not the 'Mech Noton, an expert pilot of stock Riflemans as much as modified or advanced models, would have taken for missions like the Cicada strike where he met Justin Xiang Allard. We know from his first championship run that Noton can win in stock RFL-3Ns.

Noton only ever fought in the open class where anything goes. Not sure if there were really any sensors to determine the mass of his 'Mech. In the open class, that simply isn't relevant information that has to be divulged. I mean, if you can get away with a Star League era neurohelmet with extra frills without having to register that then any modifications to the 'Mech itself would also have been okay.

Ultimately, I like the Legends explanation very much as it adds a new venue to explain Noton's track record. But it does not disspell the possibility that he had at least one if not several modified 'Mechs that looked like regular RFL-3Ns but were much more advanced and/or modified, maybe even with a higher tonnage.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #117 on: 20 December 2021, 06:39:12 »
Duke Hasek's pet Capellan March investigators, as part of the effort to smear Justin Allard, claimed that analysis of the autocannon shells indicated Justin was facing only an UrbanMech.

'Twould be hilarious if Noton was, in fact, piloting an UrbanMech cosmetically modified to look like a Rifleman in the field.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #118 on: 20 December 2021, 11:25:43 »
Duke Hasek's pet Capellan March investigators, as part of the effort to smear Justin Allard, claimed that analysis of the autocannon shells indicated Justin was facing only an UrbanMech.

Pretty sure it's near-universally accepted by us fans outside the setting that this report was a complete lie.
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"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

SteelRaven

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #119 on: 20 December 2021, 11:41:40 »
That inner monologue was from MWO to sell the Hero Mech. All those short stories seem to only tease fan theories like the Bounty Hunter piloting a Warhammer, a thing we can not find in any other piece of fiction.
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