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Author Topic: Legend-Killer's abilities?  (Read 11592 times)

Apocal

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #150 on: 22 December 2021, 07:08:44 »
Wasn't aware of this and it looks like conflicting canonical sources - can you provide a link? (The MWO site is notoriously difficult for tracking down Hero Mech fluff.)
If there is indeed a canon conflict I'd like to raise it in the Ask the LD subforum to clear this up.

Archived version here, I don't know how to find lore posts on mwomercs.com normally.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210607130802/https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/215464-marauder-countdown-day-7-of-7/

Mendrugo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #151 on: 22 December 2021, 07:26:06 »
Thanks for the link.  Okay, so that clearly shows the Bounty Hunter in a Warhammer ambushing Natasha. 

However, Wolves on the Border doesn't have any reference to Natasha's first encounter with the Bounty Hunter - just a reference to their last encounter on Le Blanc (in Tales of the Black Widow). 

Natasha says in a deposition "The Hunter himself was in his Griffin, dragging away my Marauder," quoted in the ComStar report on Wolf's Dragoons (the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook).

Based on the MWO lore bit, we have an in-character POV narrative putting the Bounty Hunter clearly in a Warhammer.  Based on the Dragoon sourcebook, we have Natasha, having ejected and hit her head, causing unconsciousness, seeing a green Griffin with credit symbols dragging her Marauder away.  There's no way at that distance she could know who was piloting it, and the Bounty Hunter has played tricks by being in another 'Mech while one of his lieutenants pilots a ride painted to look like his.

My call would be that the Bounty Hunter was in a Warhammer that day, and that Natasha was mistaken when she assumed he was in the Griffin.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #152 on: 22 December 2021, 08:17:00 »
Based on the Dragoon sourcebook, we have Natasha, having ejected and hit her head, causing unconsciousness, seeing a green Griffin with credit symbols dragging her Marauder away.
There's more to it in that source than just the ambush. Both were working for Anton. Both were on the mission, with the BH assigned recon for the Dragoons, where he betrayed them. I feel like there would have been significant opportunity to identify who was in which 'Mech, though I do admit the possibility of trrecon.

The MWO fiction is quite a big retcon, but does not change that NK did not pilot his Warhammer.

Mendrugo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #153 on: 22 December 2021, 08:27:26 »
Natasha loses her Marauder on June 20, 3014 on Nova Roma.  She enters the mission with the understanding that the Bounty Hunter is in the Griffin.  Led into a Loyalist ambush by the Bounty Hunter, she ejects and regains consciousness in time to see the Loyalists and Hunter's lance executing one of her surviving men and the Griffin dragging away her Marauder as salvage.

In November 3014, she appears in combat on Calloway VI piloting a Warhammer.  It is stated to have been salvaged from Loyalists.

So, sometime in July - October, she obtained a Warhammer from Loyalist troops.  Given the Bounty Hunter's actions, he'd qualify as a loyalist.  The Hunter was known to have piloted both a Griffin and a Warhammer.  Perhaps Natasha went after the Hunter and acquired his Warhammer, rather than his Griffin, it being what was present during her raid.  Or perhaps she just nabbed a Warhammer from a random Loyalist that ran afoul of the Dragoons.

I think the canon discrepancy is easily resolved - narrative fiction overrules sourcebooks and new overrules old, so the Bounty Hunter was in the Warhammer, whatever Natasha may have understood (possibly deceived in the first place - the BH was planning an ambush, after all, and probably didn't want to risk Natasha's incoming fire if things went pear shaped.  Notably, in the HBS missions where you encounter the Bounty Hunter, you take down a 'Mech you think is his, but find out it's just one of his lieutenants - so it's an established modus operandi). 

Whether Dark Lady was the BH's former ride is entirely open to interpretation until such time as a published work addresses the issue.  As written, the facts support that it could be, but don't necessarily nail down that it is.
« Last Edit: 22 December 2021, 08:29:50 by Mendrugo »
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #154 on: 22 December 2021, 09:11:50 »
There are further issues with the MWO fiction (Nov 2015) that kind of point to it being poorly fact-checked.

1) In The Memory of Pain (2011) and later A Time of Ice and Fire (2015), Natasha had not yet named her unit and had not taken on the Widow moniker until 24 March 2015. However, in the MWO fiction, the BH states to himself, "Blake’s Blood, Web-Head. You are as good as you say." Calling her Web-Head is nothing new for him in later meetings, but why would he call her that on 24 June 3014? Joshua hadn't been killed yet. (The MWO story does call her lance "a heavy lance of Wolf’s Dragoons Beta Regiment, Special Recon Group", indicating that they weren't the Black Widows yet.)

2) Wolf's Dragoons states that the BH and his "small cadre of professional cutthroats" were on Nova Roma. That the BH was assigned to the mission along with NK and her lance, and that NK saw "the Bounty Hunter's 'Mechs and several Marik regulars" salvaging her lance. The MWO fiction only states that the BH was hidden and that NK's lance was ambushed by twice their number of loyalists. There is nothing of his "cadre".

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #155 on: 22 December 2021, 09:18:14 »

Mendrugo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #156 on: 22 December 2021, 09:25:07 »
Natasha’s deposition doesn’t say the Hunter and his crew destroyed her unit - just that they led them into the Loyalist ambush.  Entirely possible the BH was in his Warhammer covertly observing the ambush site while a minion led the Hunter team in the Griffin, pretending to be him, then backed off when the Dragoons entered the kill zone.

I grant you that the web head reference is anachronistic.  It’s a shout out to the BH using the same term on Le Blanc.  There, it made sense because of her spidery moniker.  However, even before taking the Black Widow nom de guerre, Natasha was noted for incorporating the Clan Widowmaker motif in her fashion, as a statement of rebellion.  That was certainly noticed, given the media attention put on the Dragoons, and may be what elicited the nickname from the BH.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #157 on: 22 December 2021, 10:06:48 »
Agreed, IIRC, she is noted as having part of her blood line from Widowmaker Lines the Wolves absorbed & using that symbol back in the homeworlds.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #158 on: 22 December 2021, 10:15:50 »
I'm not really seeing the possibility of her having his Whammer.

I mean IF we didn't have the fluff of him being in it.
IF she didn't have it at the very next world they were battling on.

Then maybe I could see a story of her somehow catching up to him & getting it.
Heck, IF he wasn't fluffed of being in it then maybe they capture his dropship while he escapes in the Griffin another way.

But with both Him & the Warhammer being in the field & no story of him loosing the Mule where maybe it could have been stored IF he had been in the Griffin.

Well, its just not likely that it was "His" Warhammer that was noted as being a "Loyalist" Warhammer.

He was a low end small Merc that betrayed 1 employer for another.  Not sure that ever makes him a "Loyalist"

I think Brush Wars gives us the answer to this "rumor" and its False.
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Frabby

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #159 on: 22 December 2021, 10:58:32 »
Archived version here, I don't know how to find lore posts on mwomercs.com normally.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210607130802/https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/215464-marauder-countdown-day-7-of-7/
Fantastic, thank you very much!

In the old Shrapnel anthology there is a famous "interview" Natasha Kerensky gave to a young Misha Auburn. In it, Natasha denies her WHM is the Bounty Hunter's.
Of course the entire interview is fishy, and "Kerensky" may even have been a body double.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #160 on: 22 December 2021, 11:17:55 »
Considering the chronology has her burning inbound to Hoff on the date of the interview…yeah, body double.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #161 on: 22 December 2021, 11:26:33 »
Is it date filed or date interviewed?
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #162 on: 22 December 2021, 11:35:48 »
I'm not really seeing the possibility of her having his Whammer.
Another part of it, for me, is that it seems out of character for her. The BH betrayed her, killed her people and salvaged her 'Mech. So she steals his old ride? That's the best the pinnacle of Clan genetics could do? I feel she would accept nothing less that killing him face-to-face and, since she already had a Warhammer, she wouldn't trade it for his. She would rather melt it down. For her to somehow attain his 'Mech by finding it also would assume that the BH is rather incompetent and that she didn't have better things to do in a civil war that had the Dragoons very busy.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #163 on: 22 December 2021, 11:44:35 »
Is it date filed or date interviewed?

Date interviewed.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #164 on: 22 December 2021, 12:42:09 »
Another part of it, for me, is that it seems out of character for her. The BH betrayed her, killed her people and salvaged her 'Mech. So she steals his old ride? That's the best the pinnacle of Clan genetics could do? I feel she would accept nothing less that killing him face-to-face and, since she already had a Warhammer, she wouldn't trade it for his. She would rather melt it down. For her to somehow attain his 'Mech by finding it also would assume that the BH is rather incompetent and that she didn't have better things to do in a civil war that had the Dragoons very busy.

I would never think there were 2 Warhammers. 
Before I saw the Brush Wars line & before I put the full timeline together of Ambush v/s Next Planet when she has the Hammer........ the best I could rationalize was that sometime after ambush event she & some other dragoons had almost captured him but only got his stored Marauder.

Now when you take the Brush Wars line about it being a Warhammer salvaged from the Loyalist units, combined w/ knowing he was in the Warhammer watching, combined w/ the timeline from Ambush to Seen in a Hammer on next world.
Yeah, her having his Mech just isn't feasible in my eyes.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #165 on: 22 December 2021, 14:39:58 »
honestly that myth is almost as pervasive as the idea that the tricked out marauder custom variant the Bounty Hunter was using in 3015 represented what Natasha was running when the BH took the mech from her. (particularly the use of DHS). which given the mech was half destroyed when he got it in 3014, seems less likely than the  BH having to rebuilt into an exotic variant, in much the same way that he was able to rebuild it in 3044 with XL engine, gauss rifle, etc when all that stuff was still cutting edge and hard to get in the IS. given the BH's use of nighthawk PA(L) and other advanced tricks, the idea that the BH's had access to knowledge about where to find some caches of SLDF gear isn't much of a stretch.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #166 on: 22 December 2021, 14:46:21 »
Didn't the Dragoons strip out almost all the advanced Tech before they contracted with Davion?
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #167 on: 22 December 2021, 14:56:03 »
Didn't the Dragoons strip out almost all the advanced Tech before they contracted with Davion?
yes. and from all official accounts, they did a very thorough job of it too. but many people point to things like the BH's 3015 marauder in an attempt to argue that the dragoons secretly snuck in advanced tech like DHS onto units "where it wouldn't show". that it would be blindingly obvious to any observer that the mechs were running 50% cooler than they were supposed to be (or packed much more weaponry and/or armor than they should, due to needing fewer heatsinks) seems to go over their heads.

usually they seem to think the BH took the mech intact in 3014.. instead of the shot up wreck that it was.
« Last Edit: 22 December 2021, 14:57:34 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #168 on: 22 December 2021, 14:59:59 »
Didn't the Dragoons strip out almost all the advanced Tech before they contracted with Davion?

Mostly . . . with the Dragoons building their own replacements on the space station initially, BT fans have speculated they might have kept a few mechs like Marauders, Warhammers and maybe Archers with DHS & ERPPCs that operated in step downed performance.  If they needed to swing the battle, flip the switch on the governor off, and mop up.  They just had to be sure they would win, could secure sensor data, and recover or destroy any of that tech in fallen mechs.

It is a interesting thought exercise and possible, but the ability to keep that secret by meeting the 3 above conditions every time . . . rules against it, Occam knows best after all.

I guess it COULD happen for their first contracts to ensure they set up a winning rep, and then things like Marauder 2Rs are sent off to their periphery caches when they do the 1st resupply.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #169 on: 22 December 2021, 16:40:48 »
yes. and from all official accounts, they did a very thorough job of it too. but many people point to things like the BH's 3015 marauder in an attempt to argue that the dragoons secretly snuck in advanced tech like DHS onto units "where it wouldn't show". that it would be blindingly obvious to any observer that the mechs were running 50% cooler than they were supposed to be (or packed much more weaponry and/or armor than they should, due to needing fewer heatsinks) seems to go over their heads.

They appeared in 3005, the darkest time of the Third Succession War, when people were fighting over water resources and barely knew how to operate BattleMechs at all. House Davion didn't even question the sudden appearance of five+ regiments of mercenaries, with no explanation of their origins. Outside of ComStar, I don't think the mechanisms are in place for recognizing that a 'Mech is building up less heat or shrugging off slightly more damage than usual for its chassis. Remember, the Dragoons were the advance scouts. They had no idea how bad the state of the Inner Sphere was before they arrived. They knew enough to mothball their WarShips, but other less important things could have easily slipped through. Like an entire Behemoth chassis.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #170 on: 22 December 2021, 16:47:44 »
They appeared in 3005, the darkest time of the Third Succession War, when people were fighting over water resources and barely knew how to operate BattleMechs at all. House Davion didn't even question the sudden appearance of five+ regiments of mercenaries, with no explanation of their origins. Outside of ComStar, I don't think the mechanisms are in place for recognizing that a 'Mech is building up less heat or shrugging off slightly more damage than usual for its chassis. Remember, the Dragoons were the advance scouts. They had no idea how bad the state of the Inner Sphere was before they arrived. They knew enough to mothball their WarShips, but other less important things could have easily slipped through. Like an entire Behemoth chassis.

Before the retcon that pushed the recovery of Star League tech back, there were in-universe reports from the initial Clan invasion where soldiers noted that Clan mechs could fire their weapons at much higher rates without becoming crippled by overheating than should have been possible.  I'm pretty sure that if the Dragoons had been blazing away in combat while their mechs didn't seem to suffer heat-related performance issues, people would have noticed.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #171 on: 22 December 2021, 17:07:03 »
Pulse lasers and Ultra ACs account for some of that . . . then again seeing a Marauder IIC fire off with 3 PPCs and not shut down would be noticed.  Just like Phelan was shocked a modified Marauder or Catapult was able to fire a pair of large lasers and LRMs- and OMG, that laser reached out farther accurately than his large laser!  Even using L1 tech, you are looking at 26 heat which neither the Marauder or Catapult can easily dissipate in a single turn.  It would start to slow after one turn, slow more and have a harder time hitting after 2 turns.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #172 on: 22 December 2021, 17:22:45 »
yes. and from all official accounts, they did a very thorough job of it too.

See the Shogun for 2 examples of tech that shouldn't have been there.   (IIRC, CASE-2E,  ERPPC early on 2F)
See the IMP for use of a mech that didn't exist during Exodus.

They did a good job, but it wasn't perfect.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #173 on: 22 December 2021, 18:13:54 »
usually they seem to think the BH took the mech intact in 3014.. instead of the shot up wreck that it was.

From Legends, p. 55: "The Dragoons, determined to conceal their origins as deep-cover scouts for the Clans, were not so foolish as to field their machines with Star League technology, and so the Hunter’s prize was nothing more than a superbly maintained specimen of that breed." And it also goes on to explain the SL tech that he added later.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #174 on: 22 December 2021, 18:17:00 »
Though the clans didn't have 3R model marauders or even really know about them, so I wonder if there were subtle differences in the mech from a standard 3R. Like maybe the ammunition was on the same side as the autocannon or the heatsinks were located in subtly different places.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #175 on: 22 December 2021, 18:19:33 »
Also page 41:

Quote
When the Dragoons were revealed as a Clan reconnaissance unit, a host of defeated MechWarriors claimed that the Black Widow had “cheated” her way to victory via her Warhammer’s Clan ER PPCs. In reality, Jaime Wolf was well aware how easy it was to lose a ’Mech on the battlefield to a curious enemy, and so strictly forbade the use of Star League—let alone Clan—technologies in the field until such technologies were widely available elsewhere. As such, Natasha’s Warhammer, like her prior Marauder, was well-maintained but otherwise bone-stock.

Jaime Wolf was not the kind of commander unwise enough to assume he would win every fight.  He knew a bunch of Dragoons salvage could give the game up.
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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #176 on: 22 December 2021, 18:22:36 »
See the Shogun for 2 examples of tech that shouldn't have been there.   (IIRC, CASE-2E,  ERPPC early on 2F)
See the IMP for use of a mech that didn't exist during Exodus.

They did a good job, but it wasn't perfect.
The shogun -2F was built after the tech rennisance started (3029 intro date. Technically before the erppc was reintroed, but that date comes from older material than the erppc date. Suggesting this is a continuity research fail on catalysts part rather than a Dragoon's conspiracy)
(And honestly it isn't hard to just assume that for the first 6years of use the mech carried a standard PPC being refit once ER's entered the market, and the change wasn't given enough of a notice to warrant a new versions. Especially since by the point there were only a handful left anyway)

The CASE on the -2E is an question given it's 3005 introdate, but since case is integral to the structure of a mech odds are they just couldn't remove it easily. And we know they weren't building more of them, because the fluff says so.

Still does not mean that the dragoon's were actually running secret star league ubermechs as so many claim.
« Last Edit: 22 December 2021, 20:00:52 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #177 on: 22 December 2021, 18:24:23 »
Still does not mean that the dragoon's we're actually running secret star league ubermechs as so many claim.
Those short on skill tend to make such claims. It's easy to ignore them.

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #178 on: 22 December 2021, 18:51:46 »
Still does not mean that the dragoon's we're actually running secret star league ubermechs as so many claim.

I most definitely read that as "secret Star League UrbanMechs". Zeta Battalion owes its success to something, right?

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Re: Legend-Killer's abilities?
« Reply #179 on: 22 December 2021, 19:16:18 »
I most definitely read that as "secret Star League UrbanMechs". Zeta Battalion owes its success to something, right?

Between the Annihilator and the Imp, is that really all that inaccurate?
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!