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Author Topic: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs  (Read 7442 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #180 on: 13 August 2022, 23:08:16 »
WizKids' policy of designing mechs by appearance, then giving them arbitrary clicky stats, and only then maybe sort of but not really designing Battletech stats for them was a problem.
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Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #181 on: 14 August 2022, 06:41:06 »
"Looks first, stats second" was not exclusive to WizKids. Judging by some behind the scenes stuff about early BT, FASA would send concept drawings (or final art?) to writers who'd sometimes have to come up with stats if FASA hadn't made those yet.

I'm pretty sure this leads to stuff like the Highlander's original art having another laser or some other weapon in its left art (as does the original sculpt) that is not covered by stats.

Now, admittedly older art tended toward more normal than outlandish like the MWDA designs that end up poor in BT. But i blame melee weapons for that, and in case of TRO3075/3085, lack of experimental/later advanced or TL tech. The Rokurokubi is a light 'Mech with a sword that actually works because of its hardened armor makes it pretty good, unlike the Mjolnir or Cuirassier, neither of which utilize any advanced tech except the Mjolnir's mace which just plain sucks.
Not sure what's the excuse for the Storm Raider, though i suppose needing a mace and AC in a light makes it just unsalvageable, bad weapon and a type that takes a lot of precious mass.

Overall, i figure there's probably more good MWDA-to-BT conversions than bad ones.

Ironically it maybe the ones that WizKids provided actual stats built properly in accordance of BT rules that are bad. Because these were done under standard tech then for most part, not with advanced equipment and not with mixed tech. Or even with advanced tech, that's how we got Zeus X2 and Zeus X3 or the Cougar X-series.
For example, the Ryoken II. Though admittedly that concept can't be done well even with advanced tech...
Or contrast Marksman M1 (original) and M1A (CGL).
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SteelRaven

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #182 on: 14 August 2022, 09:02:23 »
Note, there are allot of Dark Age designs I like. What makes those two lights feel like a wasted opportunity. Just use a Wolfhound and/or Commando instead.
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Starfury

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #183 on: 14 August 2022, 23:17:22 »
The Storm Raider isn't really a wasted opportunity as much as it is a medium to long range autocannon carrier with a melee weapon. In some ways, it's an attempt to throw back to the Beserker and Axman with LRMs.  I've found it highly useful in Republic to ilClan eralight fire support or scout killer units for Periphery powers, combined with Panthers, Toros, Garms, Valkyries, Duan Gungs, Anubises (sp?), and so on. The LRMs, autocannon or PPCs weaken the enemy, and thr Storm Raider engages the targets up close, firing its autocannon on the way in.  The R2 with the Ultra 5 works best i've found for this use.

The Mjolnir is a weird attempt at a Solaris mech. It reminds me of the Blackjack, where anyone would by it for secondary deployments. 


But if we're talking mechs that make me go hmm, why does the Cerberus have rear firing MGs?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #184 on: 14 August 2022, 23:28:18 »
The Free Worlds League hadn't encountered the Clans and therefore had no first-hand knowledge of Elementals.  They thought that a pair of rear-firing machine guns would give it useful protection from a flanking Elemental point.
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Failure16

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #185 on: 14 August 2022, 23:36:36 »
And it's not the first design to do so. Witness the Falcon (but that was against normal ambushing infantry, not battlearmor). In-universe it is not a valueless decision, but on a gameboard, I'd rather take my chances and keep them pointed forwards so I can use them where I want to.
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Starfury

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #186 on: 15 August 2022, 00:45:18 »
Except that Lexatech Industries, the manufacturer of the Cerberus is a Kuritan company...

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #187 on: 15 August 2022, 01:12:24 »
Weird, for some reason I always thought it was a Free World League mech.  Probably because of the MR-5M.
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Starfury

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #188 on: 16 August 2022, 17:54:43 »
One 3055 mech I have found surprisngly useful is the Anvil. The base 3M is a great close combat brawler and interdictor against devoted C3 formations, and works really well along with Project Phoenix and original variant Ostrocs, Ostols and Hercules. 

Greatclub

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #189 on: 18 August 2022, 02:45:49 »
Caesar. Has an XL and a gauss in the right torso. 15 armor on the torsos, 21 on the arms. I assume that was originally a typo.


Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #190 on: 18 August 2022, 07:37:23 »
Caesar. Has an XL and a gauss in the right torso. 15 armor on the torsos, 21 on the arms. I assume that was originally a typo.
Nah, the original (as in first published) Marauder had less armor in side torsos than arms. As does the Cataphract. And the Caesar is based on the Cataphract which was based on the Marauder.
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Ferrosol

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #191 on: 18 August 2022, 08:10:04 »
Quickdraw 5M. Another dubious Marik "upgrade" now don't get me wrong the original quickdraw is and was garbage. Massively undersinked with half it's weapons pointed backwards where they can't do anything useful. Does the upgrade fix the problems? Well, no, it keeps the awful rear firing medium lasers. It upgrades to DHS which is fine I guess but even on a jumping alpha strike it's still oversinked thanks to the extra DHS. It downgrades the SRM4 to a one shot. Why? I mean it takes the already anaemic front facing firepower and downgrades it. Finally the two front facing weapons are in the arms so it can't even punch things good. It does have CASE which means theoretically it's more survivable but what's the point of surviving if you can't do any damage?


grimlock1

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #192 on: 29 August 2022, 11:44:24 »
Quickdraw 5M. Another dubious Marik "upgrade" now don't get me wrong the original quickdraw is and was garbage. Massively undersinked with half it's weapons pointed backwards where they can't do anything useful. Does the upgrade fix the problems? Well, no, it keeps the awful rear firing medium lasers. It upgrades to DHS which is fine I guess but even on a jumping alpha strike it's still oversinked thanks to the extra DHS. It downgrades the SRM4 to a one shot. Why? I mean it takes the already anaemic front facing firepower and downgrades it. Finally the two front facing weapons are in the arms so it can't even punch things good. It does have CASE which means theoretically it's more survivable but what's the point of surviving if you can't do any damage?
At least 1/3, maybe 1/2 of TRO 3050 would fit well in here...
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GreekFire

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #193 on: 29 August 2022, 12:13:06 »
Quickdraw 5M. Another dubious Marik "upgrade" now don't get me wrong the original quickdraw is and was garbage. Massively undersinked with half it's weapons pointed backwards where they can't do anything useful.

I think that's the first time I've ever heard someone describe the original Quickdraw as being massively undersinked.

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Fat Guy

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #194 on: 29 August 2022, 12:19:09 »
The Catalyst store can be weird like that sometimes, but it's a hell of a lot better than Battleship used to be.
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Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #195 on: 29 August 2022, 12:28:34 »
I think that's the first time I've ever heard someone describe the original Quickdraw as being massively undersinked.
Pretty sure Ferrosol means the 5M not the original, and probably means the 5M is oversinked, which it is...
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sadlerbw

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #196 on: 29 August 2022, 14:02:09 »
I always wonder what the explanation for the Crossbow T is. It has 14 I-OS SRM 2's and 2 I-OS SRM 6's. The only other weapons it has are two ER Large Lasers. That is 5.5 tons of pod space to carry 40 SRM's, but you could shoot all of them at once. I think this is the epitome of 'Just because you can doesn't mean you should!' I just imagine some Clanner saying to his techs, "I like SRM's. I like them a whole lot. However, I do not want ammo bins. It is dangerous putting all those missiles in a small space. I demand that you give me all the SRM's you can, but do NOT give me ammunition bins. Quiaff? Oh, but I still want to overheat after all my missiles are gone. Make sure to give me enough energy weapons that I can still over-tax my cooling system by alpha striking and running around once the missiles are gone. I am a Clan warrior after all. I must feel the heat of battle!"

Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #197 on: 29 August 2022, 17:00:57 »
I always wonder what the explanation for the Crossbow T is. It has 14 I-OS SRM 2's and 2 I-OS SRM 6's. The only other weapons it has are two ER Large Lasers.
All T configurations are WYSIWYG to new art and minis. Not much point to repeat the original Crossbow Prime sans Artemis and added ERML or some such.
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Jal Phoenix

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #198 on: 29 August 2022, 17:42:14 »
I blame every defeat the Steel Vipers suffered on their over-reliance on that stupid Crossbow. It is hands down the worst OmniMech in the Clan arsenal, and for some reason Clan Steel Viper all but made it their totem.

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #199 on: 29 August 2022, 18:39:34 »
Actually, the 3025 version IS oversinked... by 3025 standards...  ::)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #200 on: 29 August 2022, 21:37:15 »
I blame every defeat the Steel Vipers suffered on their over-reliance on that stupid Crossbow. It is hands down the worst OmniMech in the Clan arsenal, and for some reason Clan Steel Viper all but made it their totem.

It's what you get when you let the accounting department gain control of procurement.
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Greatclub

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #201 on: 29 August 2022, 22:02:55 »
The poor Orion. Was taken from its former brick-like self and given an XL engine, vastly reducing its ability to soak damage. The only FWL Orion to not do that... used pulse lasers as secondaries.

I like MPL on fast mechs and jumpers. The Orion is neither.

In a final insult, the Orion in the RecGuide, instead of redemption arriving from the Kendall site, gave another one to the Wolves - that is arguably worse than the one(s) they already had.




I want to like the Crossbow. It's charming in looks and concept. But I cannot deny that it is also a bundle of bad decisions.
 

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #202 on: 03 September 2022, 23:42:06 »
Oh yeah, can we talk about the Skulker MG variant, which trades the laser for two machine guns and a... 2-ton infantry bay? If you just nixed a single MG or dropped half the ammo, you'd have a really good, fast, low-cost foot platoon mover, but no, you had to shortchange it by just half a ton. Shame.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #203 on: 05 September 2022, 14:46:40 »
The  Crossbow isn't that bad.  Its design mantra is "cheap & durable" -- probably why it and the Battle Cobra were popular with the Blood Spirits -- so you want to to go out, batter something with missiles, and survive long enough to return to the ammo point to rearm.

The iOS SRMs though I can't explain, but that might be because I despise OS launchers of any kind.
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Daryk

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #204 on: 05 September 2022, 14:52:23 »
One shot missile launchers make zero sense in a universe where RL-10s exist.

Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #205 on: 05 September 2022, 15:49:24 »
One shot missile launchers make zero sense in a universe where RL-10s exist.
One shot missiles can carry special munitions. Having one shot of smoke or infernos can be useful. Not for directly attacking enemies but other stuff.
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Daryk

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #206 on: 05 September 2022, 16:03:58 »
Smoke is too easy to throw into a half ton ammo bin for one of your exsiting launchers...  ^-^

pokefan548

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #207 on: 05 September 2022, 16:54:50 »
Smoke is too easy to throw into a half ton ammo bin for one of your exsiting launchers...  ^-^
It's not a bad call if you've only got 0.5-1 ton to spare, and don't really have much else to spend it on.
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Daryk

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #208 on: 05 September 2022, 16:55:56 »
Dividing existing ammo bins is probably the most effective use of Fractional Accounting...  8)

Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #209 on: 05 September 2022, 17:44:07 »
Not an option for canon mechs though. You got a full bin or nothing.
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