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Author Topic: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs  (Read 7300 times)

Richard S.

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #120 on: 09 August 2022, 12:22:03 »
It's also just a low weight way to have some form of long-range support I guess, so that if a unit is forced to back up or go into cover they can still contribute somewhat. I'm not familiar enough with mech design or tabletop strategy to know whether that's really a good idea, but it seems reasonable from an in-world perspective at least.

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #121 on: 09 August 2022, 12:25:32 »
Off-hand, on tabletop the "light fire support" concept like the Valkyrie has never quite worked. It maybe that FASA was indeed thinking that it is reasonable realistically thinking, even if it doesn't quite work on tabletop.
Not sure how fast LRM-5 cycled in Solaris rules (2.5 second per turn) but if it had fast reload speed, it could be quite a bit more powerful than on tabletop (10 seconds per turn).
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #122 on: 09 August 2022, 12:32:34 »
Valkyries would be fine if you were in a 3025 company vs company battle that at best has a single heavy on the board.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #123 on: 09 August 2022, 12:38:14 »
But then, they only qualify for light smoke on their own. Heavy smoke is where it's at.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #124 on: 09 August 2022, 12:48:09 »
Valkyries would be fine if you were in a 3025 company vs company battle that at best has a single heavy on the board.

Concur.
I get the feeling most people evaluate Lights based on their performance on a more 'mixed' setup where you have 3-4 weight classes present on both sides. And some Lights do quite well in that environment.

But in the setting, it's even more common to have fights where most, or even all of the combatants are Light. In that kind of setup, having several mobile LRM launchers becomes a bit more significant. You're more likely to see repeated 3 damage hits break through. Also, the 7 short range means you'll get some good shots on the speedsters depending on formation.

Also, I think at least some thought needs to be given to designs that date back to SL days: those were meant to be deployed in company-strength, even battalion strength formations. A single Hornet isn't much of a problem, but at company strength, 12 LRM5's is an Archer and a half moving around at 5/8, and wielding 12 Medium lasers if you get too close. Unless you brought your own LRMs, you get wrecked unless you're faster than 5/8. Meanwhile that company is dirt cheap, so there's probably 2 more like it moving in your general direction.
Also adds some utility to the AMS: many enemies will only be able to respond with LRMs of their own.

That kind of set up, in turn, would then help explain Panther formations: a company of those would effectively screen your main forces (also moving at 4/6/4 or so) from the threat of a company of Hornets or Valkyries swinging by to mug one of your outliers.
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Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #125 on: 09 August 2022, 13:10:04 »
No one actually deploys units by company in tabletop BT games though... that hurts many of them.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #126 on: 09 August 2022, 13:23:54 »
You say that but . . .

Anyway, the point was most players want a assault or at least two heavies as part of their 'lance' for the lance fights.  If a battle was-

Quickdraw, Hunchback 4P, Centurion, Wasp x2, Stinger, Locust, 2 Valkyries

vs

Dervish, Griffin, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk, Flea, Panther, Commando, Wasp

 . . . then those Valkyries are going to let you get close to matching the 2nd force's LRM support.  The LRM support shifts to the lights letting your heavier designs charge in with close quarters lights.  Instead we have folks fielding Warhammers, Marauders and Archers with the occasional token light or med.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #127 on: 09 August 2022, 14:44:31 »
I've used 12 panthers on the board before and it works surprisingly well, especially if you concentrate fire. Individually, meh but together it's mean. I've also used 8 Panthers and 4 Jenners, and it worked even better.

Some mechs seemed to be built for combined use rather than singles.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #128 on: 09 August 2022, 15:45:32 »
No one actually deploys units by company in tabletop BT games though... that hurts many of them.

I don't think you're wrong; company worth of Mechs tends to be my upper limit, unless I'm doing a big game. I've done the occasional battalion sized events at stores or Cons.

But my point is: if we're evaluating a design, it's definitely valid to consider how the design geets used by players most of the time (IE, closer to lance on lance). But it's *also* valid to evaluate it's performance the way it gets (or got) used in-universe.

Different example: JagerMech. Everyone will agree that it's usually not going to pull it's weight compared to, say, a Thunderbolt or Catapult in a lance on lance fight.
But once you get to company+ or so in combat, I tend to see them walk off without a single scratch. They benefit from typical threat analysis: you tend to kill the things that have the most firepower, usually starting with the ones that are relatively easy to kill. JagerMechs are often quite a ways down the list sorted by firepower. Now they are comparatively easy to kill for their weight class, but their weapons permit them to be comfortably 12 hexes from the front line. With a bit of cover, the odds of them being targeted at all drop considerably. Yes, 6 tons of armor is rather pitiful, but it is enough to prevent a stray shot from doing crit damage. And in a big scrum, you can't afford to focus firepower away from that Enforcer or Centurion that's right up in your face.

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Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #129 on: 09 August 2022, 16:03:14 »
I do assume you mean the JagerMech JM6-S as most others are kinda decent. Or, well not sure about the -A or -DD or -DG but the newer ones are reasonable at least.

But yeah, i see what you mean.
The JagerMech and Rifleman make more sense in a bigger fight, especially if they get to do what they're meant for.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #130 on: 09 August 2022, 17:09:44 »
They are very nich
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #131 on: 10 August 2022, 08:21:50 »
You say that but . . .

Anyway, the point was most players want a assault or at least two heavies as part of their 'lance' for the lance fights.  If a battle was-

Quickdraw, Hunchback 4P, Centurion, Wasp x2, Stinger, Locust, 2 Valkyries

vs

Dervish, Griffin, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk, Flea, Panther, Commando, Wasp

 . . . then those Valkyries are going to let you get close to matching the 2nd force's LRM support.  The LRM support shifts to the lights letting your heavier designs charge in with close quarters lights.  Instead we have folks fielding Warhammers, Marauders and Archers with the occasional token light or med.

This is exactly why I have shifted towards using mostly mediums and lights in my games. Making heavies fairly rare and assaults really rare really changes the calculus on a lot of aspects, and a lot of designs mentioned in this thread (outside the really wacky ones) shift from being "bad" to "decent" or even "competent" when they aren't placed up against armored monsters sending two or three gauss rounds down range each turn.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #132 on: 10 August 2022, 11:02:37 »
It probably doesn't make as big a difference as my gut reaction suggests but miss matched missile launcher sizes weird me out.  Summoner E is one.  I'm blanking, but there are more.  I'm less bothered if there are multiple sets of launchers, like a Viking or Ha Otoko because a crit to one launcher doesn't leave you with one or more bins of unusable ammo.  Longbow isn't bad because you really should be using those LRM 5s for smoke, mines, illumination or other ways to make the other fellow miserable.
And MMLs paired with either main batteries of LRM or SRM aren't the same thing because the MML is there to provide secondary capability or backup weapons, like on the JES II... Except for the fact that the hull mounted LRM15s and the side mounted MML9s can't focus fire, so why not just put some SRMs on the side to discourage flankers? I always have to double check vehicle side firing arcs in TW.  "That is a silly ruling... That can't have done it that way.  Yep.  They did."


That extra hex of range can be the difference, though. If it's adjacent to the fighter's flight path while the fighter is on a dive bombing or strafing run (or a striking run from below max altitude), that moves the attack into short range for an LRM, but still medium range for an AC/5. The +0 short range mod still beats the net +1 from medium range + AA Targeting (though admittedly the Rifleman and JagerMech can benefit from a combined -1 thanks to medium range + AA Targeting + Flak Ammo).

But didn't the Quickdraw come out before we had rules for AA targeting and flak ammo? 

The iATM is a streak launcher: only fires on a hit.  Being able to carry a good load of every ammo type was more likely what they were thinking.
In-Universe, maybe most of the dev work was done before iATM came online?

Wish there was some benefit for no hand but lower arm actuator beyond adding space. Strictly speaking not using hands in construction is always worse.
Agree!

I mean, don't get me wrong, used correctly the Cephalus (in most of its configurations) is great! You just have to be willing to do a lot of heat micromanagement. Thankfully, most of hits heat comes from stealth systems (and it's a C3 spotter, so you do want to get close), which become irrelevant once you get within a country mile of the average Clan 'Mech, so you can just shut those down on approach and rely on your JACKED target movement mods.
If there was a configuration that was basically just the Prime, but with one laser AMS swapped out for a heat sink, I would take it in a heartbeat.
NOVA CEWS can still spot through Null Sig, right?  I don't think CLPS affects EW capabilities, but I'm out of practice.



 
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pokefan548

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #133 on: 10 August 2022, 13:43:16 »
NOVA CEWS can still spot through Null Sig, right?  I don't think CLPS affects EW capabilities, but I'm out of practice.
This is true, but they only provide benefits from medium range and beyond, and a Cephalus with everything running is overheating by 2 for every turn that it walks, and can't sink heat when standing still- and that's before the laser AMSs that the Society decided to put on an already very hot 'Mech for some reason. By shutting down some or all of your stealth systems when you're close enough, you're taking a very marginal loss in To-Hit mods against stuff like ER Small and Heavy Medium lasers in exchange for the ability to stay heat neutral while walking with both LAMSs engaged.
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Paul

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #134 on: 10 August 2022, 20:13:37 »
In-Universe, maybe most of the dev work was done before iATM came online?

Nope. In fact, the Scientists basically had iATM, dumbed it down* and gave the Clans ATMs so they'd stop bothering them.

* Basically turned in a version that was midway in the dev path, instead of the finished product.
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Ferrosol

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #135 on: 11 August 2022, 03:37:57 »
The Griffin 5M an "upgrade" to the fairly good Griffin 3M that has worse damage and enough DHS to do a jumping alpha strike into a volcano and still not cause the heat gauge to even flicker. It's a 55 ton machine that can't even force a PSR.

I stand by my conspiracy theory that the Word of Blake was deliberately crippling the FWLM via agents in the procurement department.

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #136 on: 11 August 2022, 06:17:35 »
Stormcrow C. Looks undergunned until you realise that thanks to its accuracy it has the firepower of the Prime on 200 less BV. Plus Inner Sphere levels of ammo. A nice package in a 3050 Clan force.

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #137 on: 11 August 2022, 09:36:01 »
Stormcrow C. Looks undergunned until you realise that thanks to its accuracy it has the firepower of the Prime on 200 less BV. Plus Inner Sphere levels of ammo. A nice package in a 3050 Clan force.

Huh?  The Stormcrow C has always been the go to Stormcrow for BV, the also being one of the better early LB-10X designs made it a must in the IS's combined arms environment.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #138 on: 11 August 2022, 13:12:52 »
I stand by my conspiracy theory that the Word of Blake was deliberately crippling the FWLM via agents in the procurement department.
I'm pointing at the Cronus TD9 again. Really hard.

Empyrus

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #139 on: 11 August 2022, 13:51:59 »
I don't think the WoB is behind the FWL's weird machines. They use those themselves quite often.
Rather i figure that FWL's got a bit too much of military-industrial complex and tendency to buy "new, high tech!".

Let's look at the Griffin 3M and 5M. The ERPPC traded for a LGR, weight for this is gained by downgrading back to the traditional LRM-10, and moving the CASE to right torso.
Between new armor molds (Project Phoenix style) and LGR, it is easy to sell it as "high tech", yet its R&D costs are absurdly low, so there's probably a nice profit margin.

No, the WoB is not behind this. They use this. If anything, they got suckered by the FWL military-industrial complex.

As for the Cronus TD9, that is used by the WoB only. I assume that is either a test platform or just pure idiocy, but not a fault of the FWL.
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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #140 on: 13 August 2022, 00:30:04 »
I'm catching up after a week off line, but I have to say I think FASA's unhealthy fascination with the LRM-5 predated Smoke Ammo...  8)

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #141 on: 13 August 2022, 00:46:39 »
It predated specialty ammo of any kind, as far as I know.
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Daryk

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #142 on: 13 August 2022, 01:41:51 »
Thanks for the confirmation!  :thumbsup:

glitterboy2098

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #143 on: 13 August 2022, 04:20:50 »
I'm catching up after a week off line, but I have to say I think FASA's unhealthy fascination with the LRM-5 predated Smoke Ammo...  8)
i'd liek to think that the LRM smoke ammo came about because of a FASA game developer realizing all those LRm5's were kinda pathetic, and needed a good reason to exist.

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #144 on: 13 August 2022, 07:32:23 »
i'd liek to think that the LRM smoke ammo came about because of a FASA game developer realizing all those LRm5's were kinda pathetic, and needed a good reason to exist.
Still a investment for a smoke launcher.
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Daryk

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #145 on: 13 August 2022, 10:31:38 »
True, but one or two per company is really enough for that.

CVB

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #146 on: 13 August 2022, 12:40:26 »
Well, the LRM5 is basically an AC3 ( on average), but much lighter and with the additional ability to fire idf. If there's a place for an AC2 or AC5, there should be a place for an LRM5.
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Paul

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #147 on: 13 August 2022, 12:46:20 »
If there's a place for an AC2 or AC5, there should be a place for an LRM5.

That's really a counter argument...
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Richard S.

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #148 on: 13 August 2022, 13:52:23 »
LRM5s are somewhat between AC2s and 5s in terms of damage and range, but they're less than half the weight.

I guess the real question is how much better those three tons could really be invested.
« Last Edit: 13 August 2022, 13:54:17 by Richard S. »

Paul

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Re: Let's Share Some Counterintuitive Designs
« Reply #149 on: 13 August 2022, 14:00:04 »
LRM5s are somewhat between AC2s and 5s in terms of damage and range, but they're less than half the weight.

I guess the real question is how much better those three tons could really be invested.

Well. An LRM10 is only 5 tons.
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