Register Register

Author Topic: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?  (Read 2728 times)

JadeHellbringer

  • This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 20015
  • TurquoiseKitFox!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #60 on: 22 April 2021, 10:31:14 »
Kodiak. There are some versions better than others, mind you, but there's not a single one I'm happy to see on the far side of the battlefield. Every one of them is a surprisingly quick-moving nightmare of one variety or another.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

Sartris

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14211
  • Semi-Sentient MUL Roomba
    • Master Unit List
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #61 on: 22 April 2021, 11:14:53 »
I think both the up-tonned Centurion and those two 70-ton JagerMechs are originally from Record Sheets: 3060?

The Dark Age omni-Centurion is still 50 tons.

they were bulked up in MechCommander, which came out the same year as RS:3060. The CN-10 series more or less mimics the MC1 builds, as does the JM7-D (though slightly less accurately)

MarauderD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #62 on: 22 April 2021, 11:19:57 »
they were bulked up in MechCommander, which came out the same year as RS:3060. The CN-10 series more or less mimics the MC1 builds, as does the JM7-D (though slightly less accurately)

I've always wondered about MC1 and MC2:  when they had an overweight 'canon' version, of the Centurion and Jagermech, did these get created by typo and then canonized, or did the game makers really want to create non-canon versions of canon mechs, etc. 

Accident, inspiration, intention?  A mix of all three?  Always wondered that.

Akamia

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • No challenge too great!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #63 on: 22 April 2021, 13:15:04 »
I've always wondered about MC1 and MC2:  when they had an overweight 'canon' version, of the Centurion and Jagermech, did these get created by typo and then canonized, or did the game makers really want to create non-canon versions of canon mechs, etc. 

Accident, inspiration, intention?  A mix of all three?  Always wondered that.
Hard to say without asking them directly. ;D The video games have always occupied a weird spot in the canon; there’s a reason they’re considered a part of the apocrypha, and I don’t think it’s solely due to the fact at least most of that side of the franchise is run by a certain corporate giant.

To bring things back on-topic, I live and die by the Timber Wolf and its derivatives in later eras. The Mad Cat MK II is one of the very few assault ‘Mechs I actually like, and the Savage Wolf is pretty mean-looking too. It’s my understanding the Mad Cat III has a bad reputation (and I’m not talking about the design quirk, though it literally does have that too), and may or may not be the exception to the rule, but I’m willing to give it its fair shake when an opportunity presents itself.

Meanwhile, I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with a Commando of any variation... Though admittedly my perception might be painted by its performance in HBS BattleTech.
Let's all go to Cargonia, land of stolen things
Obey the quartermaster unless he is a 'ling
Cargo techs guard the station and find more stuff to take
But the boss is never satisfied until the station breaks...

MarauderD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #64 on: 22 April 2021, 13:35:06 »
Meanwhile, I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with a Commando of any variation... Though admittedly my perception might be painted by its performance in HBS BattleTech.

All glass cannons if you ask me.  Way way back, I've had matches that went well where the Commando contributed, and other matches where the 'glass' in glass cannon really stood out.

Sartris

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14211
  • Semi-Sentient MUL Roomba
    • Master Unit List
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #65 on: 22 April 2021, 14:10:59 »
it's about a ton short on armor. i've enjoyed my time with the 7S.

mvp7

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 263
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #66 on: 22 April 2021, 14:11:52 »
Meanwhile, I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with a Commando of any variation... Though admittedly my perception might be painted by its performance in HBS BattleTech.
Their performance varies quite a bit and there are some pretty useless variants but there are also many nice light strikers with a lot of concentrated firepower in the mix. What ultimately ruins the Commando for me is the fluff though:

BattleTech universe is one massive supply and maintenance nightmare. There little to no standardization or even concentration of similar hardware on almost any level. It kinda makes little bit of sense in a 3rd succession war mercenary setting and absolutely none outside of that. I can accept that, I can live with that, the variety of units it provides outweighs the sheer impossibility of supply & maintenance.

What I refuse accept is that Commando COM-2D come with two completely different SRM launchers from two completely different manufacturers! Why? Why would they do that? Are the Mech designers actively trying to drive every quartermaster in the Inner Sphere to suicide (as if having around 10 different Mechs models in any one company wasn't bad enough)? And this insane weapon loadout is the standard for over 500 years... This is the straw that breaks the camel's back for me when it comes to suspension of disbelief...

TL;DR It's a nice Mech.

Sartris

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14211
  • Semi-Sentient MUL Roomba
    • Master Unit List
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #67 on: 22 April 2021, 14:13:38 »
the simple explanation is that there is magic in the BTU and its practiced exclusively by quartermasters

Middcore

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 362
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #68 on: 22 April 2021, 14:22:31 »
What I refuse accept is that Commando COM-2D come with two completely different SRM launchers from two completely different manufacturers! Why? Why would they do that? Are the Mech designers actively trying to drive every quartermaster in the Inner Sphere to suicide (as if having around 10 different Mechs models in any one company wasn't bad enough)? And this insane weapon loadout is the standard for over 500 years... This is the straw that breaks the camel's back for me when it comes to suspension of disbelief...

The Akuma is fluffed as Teddy calling for a cheaper 'Mech to fight the Clans. It has 7 different weapon systems, including a medium laser AND a medium pulse, and a Streak-6 AND a Streak-4. The same-class weapons are at least fluffed as being from the same manufacturer, but why wouldn't you reduce logistics cost and complexity by doing, say, two medium pulses and two Streak-4's? There's a bunch of other 'mechs like this in TRO's 3055-3058-3060 where it's like there was a competition to see who could fit the most unique individual weapons a on a 'Mech, but the Akuma sticks out by being kind of a throwback to this in 3067 and for the fluff making it seem all the more ridiculous.

Not to mention the workload for the pilot, since as I recall novels imply IS 'Mechs have individual triggers for each and every weapon and can't tie stuff together on target interlock circuits like the Clans can.
« Last Edit: 22 April 2021, 14:36:43 by Middcore »

mvp7

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 263
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #69 on: 22 April 2021, 14:37:09 »
the simple explanation is that there is magic in the BTU and its practiced exclusively by quartermasters
That is one of the two possible explanations for how any fighting force in BT universe survives more than a week in the field.

The second one being that Supply & Maintenance personnel is provided by Starfleet and trained by Scotty so while they can just 3D-print anything with replicator in two minutes they make a big number out of how hard it's gonna be and how long its going to take so it's more impressive when they deliver faster than expected.

The Akuma is fluffed as Teddy calling for a cheaper 'Mech to fight the Clans. It has 7 different weapon systems, including a medium laser AND a medium pulse, and a Streak-6 AND a Streak-4. The same-class weapons are at least fluffed as being from the same manufacturer, but why wouldn't you reduce logistics cost and complexity by doing, say, two medium pulses and two Streak-4's?
I guess if the weapons were from the same manufacturer they could share at least most of their parts... But yeah, BT is generally a very grimdark setting for supply and maintenance personnel.

Akamia

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • No challenge too great!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #70 on: 22 April 2021, 14:40:13 »
The Akuma is fluffed as Teddy calling for a cheaper 'Mech to fight the Clans. It has 7 different weapon systems, including a medium laser AND a medium pulse, and a Streak-6 AND a Streak-4. The same-class weapons are at least fluffed as being from the same manufacturer, but why wouldn't you reduce logistics cost and complexity by doing, say, two medium pulses and two Streak-4's?

Not to mention the workload for the pilot, since as I recall novels imply IS 'Mechs have individual triggers for each and every weapon and can't tie stuff together on target interlock circuits like the Clans can.

Wait... The Clans invented weapon groups?!

BattleTech universe is one massive supply and maintenance nightmare. There little to no standardization or even concentration of similar hardware on almost any level. It kinda makes little bit of sense in a 3rd succession war mercenary setting and absolutely none outside of that. I can accept that, I can live with that, the variety of units it provides outweighs the sheer impossibility of supply & maintenance.
I think the only era where standardization or concentration of similar hardware was a thing was the Star League era, though even that had some issues admittedly... At least supposedly most SLDF units used similar hardware up to the battalion level.

Other than FASAnomics, though, I can’t explain the COM-2D, which I understand existed at the time.
« Last Edit: 22 April 2021, 14:43:58 by Akamia »
Let's all go to Cargonia, land of stolen things
Obey the quartermaster unless he is a 'ling
Cargo techs guard the station and find more stuff to take
But the boss is never satisfied until the station breaks...

Middcore

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 362
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #71 on: 22 April 2021, 15:06:12 »
Wait... The Clans invented weapon groups?!

Don't take that as Gospel, it's based on vague memories from various novels. I know when Justin Allard gets his prosthetic hand in the Warrior trilogy, they have him practice with replica Warhammer controls because of the variety of weapons and separate triggers/buttons for each and every one are described. However even if only the Clans had TIC's at first it's possible the IS adopted it after 3050.



Quote
I think the only era where standardization or concentration of similar hardware was a thing was the Star League era, though even that had some issues admittedly... At least supposedly most SLDF units used similar hardware up to the battalion level.

Yeah I think up through probably the 1st SW it would have been the norm for at least well-equipped units to have much more homogenous forces, and the "four different 'mechs in a single lance" thing only became common once much of the IS's manufacturing capacity was destroyed. A number of old, elite House units have special rules for making a whole lance from one roll on the random assignment table IIRC.

mvp7

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 263
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #72 on: 22 April 2021, 15:39:05 »
it's about a ton short on armor. i've enjoyed my time with the 7S.
It's actually kinda depressing that if the COM-2D was sensible and used two Conventry 4-tube launchers you could have that one ton of extra armor. Without an SRM 6 you could go even further and remove one ton of SRM ammo, use the saved weight to maximize the armor and throw in a Small Laser for good measure. That would actually be pretty nice light striker Mech...

Elmoth

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2381
  • Periphery fanboy
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #73 on: 22 April 2021, 16:03:52 »
I would play that. 2 srm4 more armor and a second ML. Count me in.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19400
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #74 on: 22 April 2021, 16:15:28 »
There was a variant of the Commando in Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries that dropped the SRM 4 for two more medium lasers and one more ton of armor.  Strangely, despite how many video game based mech variants have been made canon, that particular configuration never was.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Sartris

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14211
  • Semi-Sentient MUL Roomba
    • Master Unit List
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #75 on: 22 April 2021, 16:20:31 »
the 7X. it's canon*. just has never gotten a sheet or any description

*whether or how much it resembles the video game config if it's ever printed is not known

mvp7

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 263
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #76 on: 22 April 2021, 17:10:49 »
Is it really so that there aren't any SL/SW/CI era IS light Mechs armed with two SRM-4 and a Medium Laser? It seems like such a sweet common sense armament and fits really nicely on 25 ton chassis and 20 tonner wouldn't be impossible either...

I made a COM-2D field mod in MegaMekLab to see how the armor really fits and now I really want to play this thing on the tabletop :)) : https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/commando-com-2d-bis-field-mod/

Charistoph

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 987
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #77 on: 22 April 2021, 18:54:02 »
If nothing else, if you're going to use 2 different missile manufacturers, make sure they do two different jobs.  Swapping out the SRM-4 for an LRM-5 would give a bracketing unusual for the light missile boats and make more sense than two different sizes.  If you want the 2nd ML and more armor, swap the SRM-6 instead.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

BoyOfSummer

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 189
  • I'll either find a way or make one.
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #78 on: 23 April 2021, 01:53:33 »
The Akuma is fluffed as Teddy calling for a cheaper 'Mech to fight the Clans. It has 7 different weapon systems, including a medium laser AND a medium pulse, and a Streak-6 AND a Streak-4. [...] why wouldn't you reduce logistics cost and complexity by doing, say, two medium pulses and two Streak-4's?

You'd loose 9 potential damage in the range from 7 to 9 and 3 in the range from 1 to 6.
If money could talk, it would say goodbye.

Middcore

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 362
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #79 on: 23 April 2021, 09:30:04 »
You'd loose 9 potential damage in the range from 7 to 9 and 3 in the range from 1 to 6.

This is a min/maxing argument that few, if any, canon 'Mechs would stand up to. Obviously there are more "optimal" ways to use that weight and space on the Akuma, I just picked a simpler combination of some of the weapons already on the chassis that would simplify logistics since the premise of the design is supposed to be that it's an attempt at being cost-effective.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19400
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #80 on: 23 April 2021, 10:45:01 »
Costs for the logistics of using different manufacturers has never been part of Battletech.  The Akuma is a cheaper replacement to all the Combine assault mechs that use XL engines.  Though given that none of the original variants use CASE and have lots of ammo, I think that it probably fails in that regard.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7894
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #81 on: 23 April 2021, 10:57:48 »
'We want a Atlas but different' was used the fluff text for the mech.
« Last Edit: 27 April 2021, 00:56:54 by SteelRaven »
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

wildkadabra

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #82 on: 26 April 2021, 11:42:03 »
For good: Night Gyr, even the "bad" ones can't be ignored.

For bad: Cyclops in 3025. Hard to call anything with an AC20 bad, but thats what you get when you take such a scary weapon, put a commander in the mech to make it a double bullet magnet and give it the armor of a mech 45 tons its junior and enough ammo that the explosion will be seen in clan space.

Or you can do the opposite, give the armor of its class and the firepower of a 50 tonner!

Middcore

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 362
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #83 on: 26 April 2021, 12:26:29 »
For bad: Cyclops in 3025. Hard to call anything with an AC20 bad, but thats what you get when you take such a scary weapon, put a commander in the mech to make it a double bullet magnet and give it the armor of a mech 45 tons its junior and enough ammo that the explosion will be seen in clan space.

I think you forgot the CP-10-Q with extra LRM's and slabs of armor. That one makes way more sense as a command 'mech: encourages the CO to stay out of the thick of the fight, plenty of protection if he/she does get caught out, and mobile enough not to slow down its bodyguards.

(SMD)MadCow

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 828
  • 1st Earl of the Bixby Duchy
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #84 on: 27 April 2021, 00:36:47 »
For bad: Cyclops in 3025. Hard to call anything with an AC20 bad, but thats what you get when you take such a scary weapon, put a commander in the mech to make it a double bullet magnet and give it the armor of a mech 45 tons its junior and enough ammo that the explosion will be seen in clan space.

Or you can do the opposite, give the armor of its class and the firepower of a 50 tonner!

That's what you get for going 4/6 in an assault for that era. The Cyclops' biggest problem is that it's over-engined.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7894
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #85 on: 27 April 2021, 01:01:08 »
That's what you get for going 4/6 in an assault for that era. The Cyclops' biggest problem is that it's over-engined.

You are talking to the crowd who keep finding arguments for the Charger CGR-1A1 to exists.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19400
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #86 on: 27 April 2021, 01:36:26 »
The Cyclops doesn't count as a mech with only good or only bad variants anyway, since it's gained a couple rather solid configurations over the years.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5066
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #87 on: 27 April 2021, 03:35:45 »
Axman. And Hatchetman for good measure. Did they ever get TSM on to any of them? Either a very slow way to deliver an axe, or a half competent Mech crippled by the need to carry an axe.

Kerfuffin(925)

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 794
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #88 on: 27 April 2021, 03:40:37 »
Axman. And Hatchetman for good measure. Did they ever get TSM on to any of them? Either a very slow way to deliver an axe, or a half competent Mech crippled by the need to carry an axe.

One of the new rec guide ones did, maybe both even. Massive upgrades in general there, but also not too hard to do in the first place.

Tyler Jorgensson

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1724
Re: Mechs with only good or only bad variants?
« Reply #89 on: 27 April 2021, 07:45:20 »
One of the new rec guide ones did, maybe both even. Massive upgrades in general there, but also not too hard to do in the first place.

The Hatchetman has a couple decent variants: the 7R , 6D (for the Davion fans of RAC’s), and the new 8S from the Rec Guide that uses some Clan tech and AES to make it a 5/8/5: weird that it doesn’t use a Clan-Tech LBX but w/e can’t be too munchkin.

 

Register