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Author Topic: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War  (Read 1292 times)

SCC

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Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« on: 15 September 2021, 18:53:33 »
Fairly self explanatory, I'd like to know, or have people give their opinions on, how much LosTech was around late in the Third Succession War

Hominid Mk II

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #1 on: 15 September 2021, 19:40:46 »
Almost none in any significant quantity.

The Bounty Hunter piloted a custom Marauder upgraded with DHS he acquired under unknown circumstances.

Solaris VII Champion Gray Noton appears to have been piloting an SLDF Royal Rifleman II he acquired under equally unknown circumstances instead of a standard Rifleman.

The Electronic Warfare Equipment that the Raven was originally designed around represented a crude attempt at re-creating the capabilities of the vanished BAP and GECM.

Nothing else springs to mind offhand.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #2 on: 15 September 2021, 19:59:38 »
Solaris VII Champion Gray Noton appears to have been piloting an SLDF Royal Rifleman II he acquired under equally unknown circumstances instead of a standard Rifleman.
actually per BattleTech: Legends, he was piloting a succession wars grade 60 ton RFL-3N, but had installed a star league built custom targeting and tracking system (which hybridized the Garret D2j with the Spar 3c of the Stalker) apparently salvaged off a gunslinger's ride, as well as a star league grade neurohelmet (hidden within normal model's helmet shell), and tweaked actuator systems. (basically, it would have benefited from quirks making the machine cooler running and more responsive than typical RFL-3N)


as far as the original question.. we don't really know, but it would be very rare. since even the rumor of a cache of lostech is enough to attract the attention of governments, and trigger major campaigns to search for and find it. we know that people were stumbling over such caches but almost nothing seems to have actually been in use. i'd imagine that in most cases the finds would be sent away for study in hopes of learning to reproduce them, or were items which wouldn't show up in the tabletop games.

odds are most caches that had weapons and vehicles/mechs/fighters would have been fairly small, or filled with damaged or obsolete hardware that the exodus fleet didn't want to haul along, and as a result any useful items ended up refit to succession wars grade technologies while any surviving advanced weapons and systems were sent to R&D facilities for study.
« Last Edit: 15 September 2021, 20:07:54 by glitterboy2098 »


RifleMech

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #4 on: 15 September 2021, 20:20:14 »
As much as your story requires. The amount found directly corresponds to how quickly the characters are visited by ROM Agents.  xp

Scotty

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #5 on: 15 September 2021, 20:30:01 »
ComStar directly contributed to the technological dark age of the Succession Wars, but suggesting ROM went after anything short of schematics or miraculously still operational production facilities is a meme.  There's plenty of Star League tech kicking around, but the odd mech or variant will still pop up from time to time.

It's easy to forget, since the difference between Introductory/L1 and Standard/L2 tech has been ingrained on every BT player for decades, but ComStar did not arbitrarily pick all equipment designed after year XYZ and go hunting it to extinction. 
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idea weenie

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #6 on: 15 September 2021, 20:52:15 »
As much as your story requires. The amount found directly corresponds to how quickly the characters are visited by ROM Agents.  xp

ROM is still fairly smart, and to me here are some of the different ground combat technologies and what would be their reactions:

Low Concern, where ROM might try to figure out where you got it, to see if there is anything else at that location.  Beyond that, they don't really care.  The sort of stuff that is either used up quickly, needs other stuff to work properly, or just doesn't provide that big of a benefit.:
  • C3 Slave - useless without Master, but ROM might want to inspect the battlefield to see if there is a C3Master unit present that the PCs missed
  • Endo-steel - minor concern as Endo-steel halves the weight of internal structure, but it can still get damaged, plus maintaining that armor will be annoying
  • Ferro-fibrous armor - no real concern, it only provides 12% more armor per ton, and is destroyed routinely.  ROM might offer to buy scraps of the armor after it is shot up, as 'historical legacies of the Star League', while their main goal is to provide samples to reverse engineer.
  • LB-X autocannons - the cluster munitions are interesting for their improved accuracy, and the slightly longer range is nice
  • Narc Launcher/Narc ammo - not that big of a concern, as the launcher and its ammo are unique, plus they need specialized missiles to be used properly. 
  • Ultra Autocannons - Faster firing, shorter minimum range, but there is also the risk of the gun jamming when fired in combat conditions

Medium Concern, where ROM will want to keep an eye on you.  These items have a bigger advantage, aren't used up as fast, or provide a massive benefit to certain areas:
    [/li]
  • Artemis Guidance system with missiles - some concern as this is a complete weapons system
  • Beagle Probe - not used up when in action, enhanced sensor capability gives the unit better capabilities and will draw ROM's attention
  • C3Master - inherent datalink capabilities and TAG system means this unit is a valuable addition, turning even a regular 3025 force into a much more dangerous formation
  • ER weapons - no ammo concerns and longer ranges, but the higher heat will still limit their utility.
  • Gauss Rifles - very powerful and effective weapon, but uses custom ammo.  If the group starts manufacturing their own ammo, ROM may try to send pirates after them to destroy the manufacturing site, describing it as a 'military alloy manufacturing site', neglecting to mention that the 'ingots' are in 125 kg spheres.
  • Guardian ECM - unlimited usage and interesting capabilities means this ECM package will draw ROM's attention
  • Pulse lasers - far more accurate than regular lasers, no ammo, but their shorter range means they aren't all that dangerous

High Concern, stuff that needs to be confiscated or destroyed (but carefully so you don't realize it was them).  These items provide benefits to many ground combat categories:
  • Double Heat sinks - Double Heat Sinks can benefit every weapon the Mech has.
  • XL Engines - XL engines offer a massive tonnage savings at the risk of losing the engine due to side torso damage

Scotty

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #7 on: 15 September 2021, 21:05:32 »
C3 is not a Star League tech, it was introduced in 3050.
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Scotty

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #8 on: 15 September 2021, 21:08:05 »
Likewise, any Ultra Autocannon besides the 5, any LBX Autocannon besides the 10, any ER laser besides the Large, and any Streak SRM besides the 2 didn't exist until the Clan Invasion.
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GuyIncognito

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #9 on: 15 September 2021, 21:14:04 »
An entire box of Star League-era staplers.

cawest

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #10 on: 15 September 2021, 21:19:59 »
i don't remember were it was first seen (battltech tech magazine?) but the Osprey was a lostech find and used. 

glitterboy2098

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #11 on: 15 September 2021, 21:35:27 »
An entire box of Star League-era staplers.
this seems to be the sort of thing most lostech prospectors find, when you look into the lore. the biggest finds (before Helm)? a library of old textbooks on Halstead Station in 3014 (which saw one of the few multi-regiment battles of the 3rd succession war) and a load of Omni 25 fusion engines in 3017 (which spurred the development of the Savannah Master hover vehicle)

the determination of the location of a cache on helm was such a huge deal because it was known that several regiments worth of gear vanished from records there, and that was basically the biggest potential find of lostech ever. even if only a tenth of the stuff that had gone missing from records was in there, it would have been enough to swing the next major war in the finder's favor. which is why elements within the FWL were so willing to help comstar frame the Grey Death legion of warcrimes in order to get access to their landhold where the site was suspected to be, and why the Combine was so willing to back Ricol's little expedition there. no one (outside of comstar) even knew the Library computer core was there, though the core turned out to be the most valuable find.

and it is worth noting that even Helm does not seem to have had much in the way of advanced hardware present, since Ricol managed to transfer a chunk of the cache's equipment onto dropships to be taken back to the combine. but no mention of advanced weapons or systems cropped up in any follow on novels (despite lostech devices of other sorts often playing a role) suggesting that either the equipment was largely standard gear (perhaps older SLDF regualr equipment) or ended up stripped of their irreplaceable lostech gear and rebuilt with sustainable hardware.

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #12 on: 16 September 2021, 01:36:55 »
I think game wise and lore wise the answer to this question has changed dramatically.  Early lore mentioned all kinds of stuff that was 'los tech' that was never actually los tech in the game.  Various computer and tracking systems, mechs and vehicles that seem entirely introductory rules wise have been called 'los tech' with the same reverence as a medium pulse laser.

Rules wise now, using campaign ops, we see a well off elite unit can amass a nice collection of lostech using the high modifiers on acquisition rolls they get, while a new merc unit struggles to get bad mechs.  This feels right to the 'current' background, which has the bounty hunter, an elite pilot, in a decked out LOSTECH custom ride (early on in the fiction it was a run down stock marauder)--likewise elite house commanders and solaris gladiators can trick out their rides in lostech at exorbitant prices using the 'hero' mechs as an example from MWO and MW5 mercenaries, yet all of these custom 'hero' units are not canon despite being very real to the capabilities of elite units in campaign operations.

Basically, when asked everyone says they dont have any LOSTECH, but its a sure bet if you look under the hood of an elite independent unit you see they were lying about not having LOSTECH thanks to various black market purchases.  I think this tracks with real world militaries too--elite commando units often have modified equipment that you simply cant get in the regular forces, though on paper they are probably conventionally armed.

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #13 on: 16 September 2021, 01:45:25 »
Properly?  Almost none outside of ComStar and lost SL caches (which then presumably last until the special gear is stolen, destroyed, or breaks because no one can fix it for long).  Unfortunately there's been a tendency to create just this one special exception to make X unit or character "interesting", which then is of course multiplied by X people each with their own one-time special exception so that you get a trickle-down effect that has made lostech remarkably less remarkable over the years.

Absence is a powerful writing tool, but it innately calls to people who want to fill it in, so you get Luke as the last of the Jedi except for the other 1,000 that we later learn are out there in schlocky EU works and Sherlock Holmes never falling in love except for his 100 wives and 1,000 girlfriends in pastiche after pastiche, and so on.
« Last Edit: 16 September 2021, 11:02:08 by Xotl »
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phoenixalpha

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #14 on: 16 September 2021, 02:32:07 »
The reason ROM was so militant about "removing" SL tech was that if such tech found it's way into the R&D departments of the major houses - it could very quickly alter the balance of power.

Imagine Josephine Bloggski of Bloggski's Bandits in the late 3rd SW finding a working Hussar HSR-200Db. Quietly smuggles it off world - hands it to the NAIS.

So the NAIS will not only have a working SL mech but working examples of Double Heat Sinks, XL Engines, FF armour, Endo Steel, ECM & BAP. From there it's not a leap to making that tech again. It will be way harder to infiltrate the NAIS & destroy all that tech rather than have low level operatives in places like planetary transport, jumpships, mercenary units, etc to feed that information back to ROM and suddenly their dropship goes missing mid transit.

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #15 on: 16 September 2021, 03:27:10 »
From there it's not a leap to making that tech again.

It definitely still is.  LosTech didn't start making a comeback in the Inner Sphere until the discovery of the Helm memory core because it actually contained technical specifications moreso than working parts.  Otherwise every Star League ever discovered could have been the spark to kick off the renaissance - but they weren't.  Tech that did go extinct in the Inner Sphere tended to do so as the result of production loss and ROM targeting engineers and researchers that could maintain that knowledge.  It goes extinct on its own after that.

It will be way harder to infiltrate the NAIS & destroy all that tech rather than have low level operatives in places like planetary transport, jumpships, mercenary units, etc to feed that information back to ROM and suddenly their dropship goes missing mid transit.

And yet this is absolutely what ComStar did for nothing short of the Helm core itself.

It's also worth mentioning that ComStar being the tech-repossessing boogeymen of everything Star League is largely an out of character observation - and why I described it as a meme earlier.  ComStar's meddling in and active hand in advanced tech dying out was a successfully kept secret for over 200 years.  That doesn't happen even if you control the HPGs if you're sending out secret agent teams to pillage every wi-fi toaster in a 1200 LY diameter of space.
« Last Edit: 16 September 2021, 12:56:29 by Scotty »
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #16 on: 16 September 2021, 03:36:38 »
 Then there's the Azami and the Arkab Legions, who apparently had some Star League era tech stashed (and in use). However, the specifics of this remain somewhat vague, but it's there.

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phoenixalpha

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #17 on: 16 September 2021, 04:13:45 »
And yet this is absolutely what ComStar did for nothing short of the Helm core itself.

It's also worth mentioning that ComStar being the tech-repossessing boogeymen of everything Star League is largely an out of character observation - and why I described it as a meme earlier.  ComStar's meddling in and active hand in advanced tech dying out was a successfully kept secret for over 200 years.  That doesn't happen even if you control the HPGs if you're sending out secret agent teams to pillage every wi-fi toaster in a 1200 LY diameter of space.

Yep ComStar tried and failed to attack the NAIS successfully and it cost them a full battalion disguised as Death Commandos. The fact that its not an in universe observation that ComStar & ROM were out bumping off anyone that even looked out of turn for nearly 2 centuries doesn't make it any less valid - it just means that we know that they did it. If you are playing in a game - you dont announce the bad guys as ROM - hell most people probably dont know about ROM at all - and they think ComStar are benevolent if a bit... wierd. We know ComStar was batshit crazy but in universe it's never been an open admission that most (or many) people think that way. Even during the Jihad - people knew that ComStar wasn't the Blakists.

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #18 on: 16 September 2021, 05:32:24 »
I'd say that with all the LosTech prospectors out there constantly making finds, there should be some available at premium prices and in poor condition.  However, one strong argument against that is that none of the elites of any House are ever shown fielding any LosTech in the 3020s. 

If House Kurita had a private stash of LosTech weapons and systems for their own personal use, then the personal 'Mechs of the Coordinator and his heir should, in theory, have been tricked out with such equipment.  Heck, Theodore did extensive research and work to restore Kerensky's abandoned Orion to its original specs.  But he restores it to its "fresh off the factory floor" specs, rather than Kerensky's LosTech-packed Gunslinger configuration.  That implies either House Kurita, for all its might, didn't have any LosTech reserves left...or Takashi had it, but wasn't willing to give it to his son. 

Other examples are that Hanse, Janos, and the rest of the elites of the time aren't mentioned as taking any LosTech gear into the field, which they theoretically should be, as the richest, most powerful people in the Inner Sphere. 

So, who, then, buys all the LosTech the prospectors find and how do they put it to use? 
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RifleMech

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #19 on: 16 September 2021, 07:27:42 »
Like I said, how much lostech you find depends on how quickly ROM comes knocking. Find a couple things, they'll put you on a list to investigate where you found it. The more you find the higher on the list you are. Find a lot, and they put you on a list for an accident.

It's not so much they're worried you'll fabricate parts to keep the things operable. They've largely taken care of that, so even if you found someone to make new parts, you couldn't afford the prices. It isn't even selling to researchers, although that's a concern. They've ensured a lot of tech doesn't have any supporting industry to be replicated. The big thing Comstar doesn't want is tipping the scales between the Houses. If you find that much lostech, or even that much tech, you get to meet their friend Davy Crocket.

phoenixalpha

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #20 on: 16 September 2021, 08:09:25 »
So, who, then, buys all the LosTech the prospectors find and how do they put it to use?

Joe Johnson, handy SL prospector finds a stash of SLDF laser rifles. Puts the quiet word out on the black market for a buyer of said rifles. The highest bidder is Senor Abraham Abramohvich, buyer from Inatek and he handily hands over a large stack of fresh, crisp CBills to Joe. Senor Abramohvich duly dispatches the cutting edge laser rifles to Inatek "Headquarters" on Terra. Duly arriving on Terra they go into Storage Area 51 never to be seen again. Senor Abramohvich continues to happily buy any available SL tech on the black market for his employer. Both parties think they have done good things and both think somewhere on Terra - Inatek is breaking down those rifles to build a new model and bring back a part of LosTech to help the Inner Sphere back from the brink of destruction.

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #21 on: 16 September 2021, 08:16:50 »
The big thing Comstar doesn't want is tipping the scales between the Houses. If you find that much lostech, or even that much tech, you get to meet their friend Davy Crocket.

Prior to the Helm Memory Core finally letting the djinn out of the bottle on such a scale that a full scale technological renaissance kicked off, it would have been a case of meeting their friend catastrophic misjump or their friend pirate massacre. Nobody used nukes during the 3rd SW.
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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #22 on: 16 September 2021, 08:38:28 »
Dr Elaine Evaarson and her team of junkyard scientists have bought some lostech "pulse" lasers from Joe Johnson, SL prospector. His usual highest bidder from Inatek didnt show up for this auction on the black market but Dr Evaarson who heads up Evaarson Technologies came through with the cash. Elaine Evaarson and her team have spent years reverse engineering Star League pulse lasers and can now easily manufacture small pulse lasers. They contact Diverse Optics on Kessel via HPG to sell their manufacturing processes and their first batch of small pulse lasers.

Coincidentally Loki agent Sven Stendentsson gets a tip off from a "friend" in the know about a batch of LosTech being transferred to Kessel. He and his team leave their base on Lyons in the company of an aerospace wing from the Skye Rangers with instructions on capturing the team and equipment.

Battle ensues - the engineers and their team killed during  the battle and the small pulse lasers lost to the void of space.

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #23 on: 16 September 2021, 08:48:32 »
In other words, most of those thousands and thousands of pirate raids in never-ending waves can be attributed to Comstar secretly funding them, and then slipping them intel about "juicy targets", which will inevitably lead to the deterioration or destruction of potential LosTech builders or researchers.  All this time I thought that the numbers of pirates were beyond credibility, but if they're getting better pay under the table from Comstar than they would receive in a House army, PLUS potential salvage, it's PERFECTLY understandable.  Sometimes FASAnomics actually makes sense in a warped and twisted sort of way.

Note that Norton Snord (of Snord's Irregulars) was well known to be a LosTech prospector and collector.  I seem to recall that a lot of what he managed to acquire was of little or no direct military value, although some definitely was.
« Last Edit: 16 September 2021, 09:11:17 by Kovax »

phoenixalpha

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #24 on: 16 September 2021, 10:20:00 »
Note that Norton Snord (of Snord's Irregulars) was well known to be a LosTech prospector and collector.  I seem to recall that a lot of what he managed to acquire was of little or no direct military value, although some definitely was.

Yep - you never get the novels about a down at luck scavenger who's father's old merc company was destroyed and they swore to find a Star League cache and restore their family fortunes - and they do find the cache they have searched decades for - only to find it's 2000 tons of Star League era MRE and 1000 tons of blank storage media instead.

Not such an exciting book then....

bobthecoward

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #25 on: 16 September 2021, 12:52:03 »
Not enough for them to appear on the MUL for factions in this era. And these same MULs list the daishi for the capellan confederation in the civil war era based on salvage from Bulldog by 5 regiments.

RifleMech

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #26 on: 16 September 2021, 16:23:23 »
Prior to the Helm Memory Core finally letting the djinn out of the bottle on such a scale that a full scale technological renaissance kicked off, it would have been a case of meeting their friend catastrophic misjump or their friend pirate massacre. Nobody used nukes during the 3rd SW.


The 348th Reserve Detachment of the Skye Militia used nukes to blow a dam on New Glasgow in 2895.

A misjump would require some getting on the Jumpship, messing with the jump drive, and unless they want to go with the ship, get off again. Not impossible but pretty difficult. Pirates are more likely but run the risk of being defeated. More likely would be a slip in the shower, brakes mysteriously failing, encounters with umbrella guns, a mugging, or other types of unfortunate events happening.

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #27 on: 16 September 2021, 17:58:55 »
The 348th Reserve Detachment of the Skye Militia used nukes to blow a dam on New Glasgow in 2895.

Hmm! Shades of Paul Atreides there:

"I didn't violate any ancient treaties prohibiting the use of nuclear weapons in war. I just used a nuclear demolition charge to eliminate a geolocical formation that was preventing my forces from getting at their enemies."

Pull the other one, Padishah Emperor of the Universe. It's got bells on.
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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #28 on: 16 September 2021, 18:06:59 »
it's very lyran social general

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Re: Prevalance Of LosTech In The Late Third Succession War
« Reply #29 on: 16 September 2021, 19:27:11 »


Solaris VII Champion Gray Noton appears to have been piloting an SLDF Royal Rifleman II he acquired under equally unknown circumstances instead of a standard Rifleman.
This is a fan rumor that became an in-universe rumor.  Notably, in Warrior: En Garde, we have Noton and Justin Xiang Allard as POV characters, including a chapter where Justin is piloting the said Rifleman, and neither of them ever so much as *thinks* about it being in any way unusual.  We have absolutely no evidence in canon that it was anything but a normal RFL-3N piloted by an exceptional pilot.
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