Register Register

Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2  (Read 89757 times)

GuyIncognito

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 295
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1380 on: 14 February 2021, 11:52:55 »
You just have to get more creative if there aren't any fluid guns.

FaithBomb

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1081
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1381 on: 14 February 2021, 12:12:28 »
You just have to get more creative if there aren't any fluid guns.

You can't mount a one-shot fluid gun, can you?
Some people say I'm a marshmallow...

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 38397
  • Carpe Arcanum Cibum
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1382 on: 14 February 2021, 12:17:32 »
Sadly, no. Not even one that would be tied to a failed morale check.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

FaithBomb

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1081
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1383 on: 14 February 2021, 13:00:55 »
Well, there goes a girl's dreams.
Some people say I'm a marshmallow...

Decoy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1384 on: 14 February 2021, 14:51:12 »
Wrong thread ><

« Last Edit: 14 February 2021, 14:56:54 by Decoy »

Known Glitch

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 180
  • Why haven't we fixed this yet?
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1385 on: 14 February 2021, 16:32:31 »
Anyone else notice the error in the write-up for Lori Kalmar-Carlyle and her Shadow Hawk Boss Lady in Volume 12?  That Shadow Hawk wasn't captured on Verthandi. If memory serves it was one of the old Caryle's Commandos mechs that Grayson liberated on Trellwan. He gave it to Lori following Verthandi to replace her Locust.   
« Last Edit: 14 February 2021, 22:10:20 by Gooner »

FaithBomb

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1081
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1386 on: 14 February 2021, 17:39:54 »
Anyone else notice the error in the write-up for Lori Kalmar-Carlyle and her Shadow Hawk Boss Lady in Volume 12?  That Shadow Hawk wasn't captured on Verthandi. If memory serves it was one of the old Caryle's Commandos mechs that Grayson liberated on Helm. He gave it to Lori following Verthandi to replace her Locust.

You are correct on that point. I hadn't noticed, but just re-read the entry and you're right, that one was a boo-boo
Some people say I'm a marshmallow...

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16989
  • Not smarter than a fifth grader
    • Master Unit List
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1387 on: 14 February 2021, 17:44:42 »
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/errata/recognition-guide-ilclan-all-volumes/

Reporting it here increases the odds that the mistake won’t be replicated in the future (like in, say, a theoretical print compilation)

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
what is being a battletech fan besides accepting a bad, poorly informed take twenty years ago, reciting it repeatedly as fact, and never bothering to update your opinion by reading anything new?

Known Glitch

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 180
  • Why haven't we fixed this yet?
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1388 on: 14 February 2021, 22:04:44 »
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/errata/recognition-guide-ilclan-all-volumes/

Reporting it here increases the odds that the mistake won’t be replicated in the future (like in, say, a theoretical print compilation)

Thanks for this! Posting there.

Cubby

  • Space Wizard of Secrets
  • BattleTech Developer
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3161
  • BattleTech Assistant Line Developer
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1389 on: 17 February 2021, 13:33:02 »
You are correct on that point. I hadn't noticed, but just re-read the entry and you're right, that one was a boo-boo

Ugh - you know, I read that sentence a couple times, but I guess I was more focused on implementing the FC note that Boss Lady was destroyed on Glengarry, not on Hesperus with the rest of the unit, that the "captured on Verthandi" part didn't hit any mental tripwires.
Demo Team Agent #639, northeastern Maryland.

BattleTech Assistant Line Developer, writer and editor - Sarna.net Profile

GuyIncognito

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 295
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1390 on: 17 February 2021, 16:21:03 »
50 lashes, Cubby.

Known Glitch

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 180
  • Why haven't we fixed this yet?
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1391 on: 17 February 2021, 19:27:04 »
Ugh - you know, I read that sentence a couple times, but I guess I was more focused on implementing the FC note that Boss Lady was destroyed on Glengarry, not on Hesperus with the rest of the unit, that the "captured on Verthandi" part didn't hit any mental tripwires.

No worries Cubby.  Hey, if anything I was able to learn how to do an errata post!  :thumbsup:

LastChanceCav

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2510
  • Repossessing the dispossessed ...
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1392 on: 17 February 2021, 23:39:30 »
I like both of the new Raven "murder of crows", and I think theWar Crow is a fine heavy cavalry unit, but from a logistics perspective  I wish it had 4/6 movement  to maximize the shared components  with the Carrion Crow. It seeems the deal would have been easier for the Alliance to swallow.

Cheers,
LCC
Last Chance Engineering - Bespoke Battlemechs for the refined gentleman.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21841
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1393 on: 17 February 2021, 23:41:46 »
Puns like that will cause the Raven Alliance to give you the bird.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3600
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1394 on: 18 February 2021, 00:39:57 »
I like both of the new Raven "murder of crows", and I think theWar Crow is a fine heavy cavalry unit, but from a logistics perspective  I wish it had 4/6 movement  to maximize the shared components  with the Carrion Crow. It seeems the deal would have been easier for the Alliance to swallow.

Cheers,
LCC

Speaking of, I played a game against a 2/3 wombo combo of War and Carrion Crows.
It was rough to play against.
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

jymset

  • Infinita Navitas
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1478
  • the one and only
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1395 on: 18 February 2021, 11:22:51 »
In the upcoming days, I will post another similar entry...

...

"upcoming days" seems to be a broad term  xp

Ahem! Before I dive into a fourth "round up" message, let me dive unceremoniously into another thread to revisit the overdue discussion on the original "C" refits:

So the warhammer C in this book has twenty heatsinks, while in all previous versions it was intentionally underweight with eighteen.

Retcon or error?

EDIT: Just noticed the same thing was done with the Marauder C in the prior volume. That's an annoying change if that's what we're going with now.

So, what are the "C" refits, where do they come from, what do they look like now, and why?

They originate from a couple of scenarios in 1990's The Battle for Twycross, available here as scan. CJF garrison troops deploy the following handful of IS Mechs (presumably isorla):

  • Shadow Hawk
  • Rifleman
  • Thunderbolt
  • Archer
  • Warhammer
  • Marauder
  • Victor
  • Atlas

Weapon swaps and (in the case of Thunderbolt and Rifleman) deletions have been detailed, which, by virtue of omission leaves some of them with IS weapons, and all of them underweight on account of their lighter Clan weapons. One special case was the Marauder that specifically stated that its ammo was refit with CASE (because no other change at the time padded that RT ammo bomb...).

These were very quickly officially published in 1991's Record Sheets vol. 2, vol. 3, and vol. 4. They were each labeled as their featured 3025 model with a "(C)" suffix, ie "SHD-2H (C)" thereby confirming their special status as refits and also the basic assumptions that Twycross used the vanilla 3025 models.

More interestingly, they featured at times subtle differences, from simple stuff like changed HS allocations vs the 3025 originals on some of them, lacking the CASE on the Marauder... and adding (IS) CASE (on top of a third ton of AC ammo) on the Atlas? ??? Also, an error in the Shadow Hawk that showed 5/8/5 mvmt in the Mech Data while not allocating the additional two jj (Twycross did not mention any jump upgrade).

This error was emblematic of these sheets, which were a very valiant first effort by FASA, but were superseded in the mid-90s by RS 3025/26, 3050, and 3055/58 (with others following suit). Probably because the "C" sheets were technically doubly illegal (mixed tech and underweight, which was not a rules option at the time), they were not included in the new and canon-defining RS. They would quickly fade from view until 2010.

When we did RS 3085U-PP, we were aiming to be inclusive. The "C"s were going to be part of it. On account of the inaccuracies of the 1991 RS, the decision was made to work straight off the primary source. The new RS were thus slightly different to the ones seen 1991. (Side detail: because of limitations of the software and because there was spare mass anyways, the Marauder's CASE was denoted as IS CASE on the RS, when really it always should have been Clan CASE.)

The big, fateful change was changing the designation. Since their last appearance, there had been a slew of other "C" models appearing, though all of which were full-blown Clan 2nd line Mechs. TRO 3085's Project Phoenix included a Clan Rifleman, and it was this that tipped the scales in favor of treating the Twycross "C"s as standardized models. Obviously this decision immediately created problems of its own - how can they be part of a standardized line up if they are most obviously untouched ancient IS units that use the lowest of low tech and not even up to their possible mass? I do remember that the option of filling the chassis up with HS was discussed even at the time, though I don't remember the reason why we did not. Purity, I suppose.

It is a decision I have been uneasy with for a decade. Come the RecGuides, and suddenly a whole slew of other "3025-vintage" Mechs are receiving factory refits, many of which starting with the same, innocuous "C". The whole discrepancy of the fateful labeling of 3085's RS blew up in our face. After another debate, I moved forward in bringing the old Twycross refits into a place where they could exist among their peers moving forward.

As seen in the errata threads for RS 3050U and RS 3085, when we added the HS, we prioritized any new placement as found in the 1991 RS, or the 3025 originals. On top of that, we incorporated the sum of information from Twycross and the RS - hence the specific changes on Shadow Hawk and Atlas.

I apologize to those who feel this is an arbitrary change. The "C" refits have been malleable in all of their four appearances to this date. To me, streamlining them into a form that befits our current understanding of mixed tech units was a logical consequence of a labeling decision made in 2010. Now, with new fluff*, it was time to implement it. What we did discuss, but ultimately did not implement, was keeping the Twycross labels in the MUL.

That way, it could be clearer that the whole thing was an iterative process, both in-universe and in RL. But it would just spread confusion about having two entries for essentially the same Mech. Nevertheless, there's that head canon explanation - and anyone who revisits the original Twycross can always be free to go either way with what is used.

I hope this all has helped! Thanks for reading. :)



*Yes, even Victor and Atlas will have their variants covered "sometime soon" (TM) - be it in the RecGuides or another source. Maybe they will even have more room to discuss the in-universe process than the short mention in the variant text of a normal "Classic" entry.

And a final postscript: the RecGuide discussion happened around the same time that circumstance in the production of Tukayyid made a "Locust C" necessary. So, 30 years after first seeing the light of day, the Twycross Mechs were joined by another member in their ranks!
On CGL writing: Caught between a writer's block and a Herb place. (cray)

Nicest writing compliment ever: I know [redacted] doesn't like continuity porn, but I do, and you sir, write some great continuity porn! (MadCapellan)

3055 rocks! Did so when I was a n00b, does so now.

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4187
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1396 on: 18 February 2021, 14:31:33 »
The record sheets for all the "C" refits can all be conveniently found in E-CAT35S003 Battle of Tukayyid Supplemental.

If you haven't bought it yet: https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/collections/battletech/products/battletech-battle-of-tukayyid-supplemental
I have spoken.


Wolf72

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2219
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1397 on: 18 February 2021, 15:00:33 »
Wait, I've just been reading and nodding my head along the way ...   xp

Did they fix the underweight C models? ... usually by simply adding HS (a good thing btw)?  are those detailed anywhere else besides the Tuk:Supplemental?

War does not determine who is right, only who is left. -- said no Clanner ... ever!

KS #1357

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10252
  • All your tulips belong to us.
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1398 on: 18 February 2021, 15:08:03 »
Wait, I've just been reading and nodding my head along the way ...   xp

Did they fix the underweight C models? ... usually by simply adding HS (a good thing btw)?  are those detailed anywhere else besides the Tuk:Supplemental?

They are appearing in the Recognition Guides.
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets, Combat Manual Lite series [Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots]

Kerfuffin(925)

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2036
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1399 on: 18 February 2021, 15:08:30 »
Wait, I've just been reading and nodding my head along the way ...   xp

Did they fix the underweight C models? ... usually by simply adding HS (a good thing btw)?  are those detailed anywhere else besides the Tuk:Supplemental?

Yes but it was accompanied by a fair amount of ‘reeee’.
Some of them have made it into the rec guide series. Usually with an actual production level update (Warhammer C, Warhammer C2, Warhammer C3) refit, mixed tech production, clan

Wolf72

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2219
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1400 on: 18 February 2021, 15:14:07 »
Yes but it was accompanied by a fair amount of ‘reeee’.
Some of them have made it into the rec guide series. Usually with an actual production level update (Warhammer C, Warhammer C2, Warhammer C3) refit, mixed tech production, clan

oh great! ... time to start ponying up some credit to pick those up!

also, just ran thru MM Lab (47.16?) ... They are in there too! (well maybe from previous products).  Archer C with 20 SHS? Yes, Please!  It may be a solahma unit, but still deadly with a decent warrior at it's controls.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left. -- said no Clanner ... ever!

KS #1357

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3600
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1401 on: 18 February 2021, 15:19:31 »
Some of them have made it into the rec guide series. Usually with an actual production level update (Warhammer C, Warhammer C2, Warhammer C3) refit, mixed tech production, clan

Slight clarification here: the Warhammer C 2 has no indications that it's a production-level variant as opposed to another refit. The design itself is built off the WHM-7M (if I remember correctly, I'm away from my books at the moment), which, alongside its own introductory date, instead suggests that it was a common refit.

also, just ran thru MM Lab (47.16?) ... They are in there too! (well maybe from previous products).  Archer C with 20 SHS? Yes, Please!  It may be a solahma unit, but still deadly with a decent warrior at it's controls.

All of the C's--including those that haven't yet gotten their respective Recognition Guides--are now in the latest release due to their previous inclusions in Tukayyid:Supplemental. I'd personally suggest checking out the Atlas C--it's a pretty fearsome garrison 'Mech for its era.

Thanks jymset for the massive post about the C's!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: 18 February 2021, 15:23:22 by GreekFire »
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

jimdigris

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8106
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1402 on: 18 February 2021, 17:12:13 »
I seek clarification on ferro-lamelor armor.  The rule is it deflects 1pt of damage for every five, or fraction thereof.  Am I right in thinking that an LB-20x cluster round fired at a Warcrow will do no damage, even if all 20 bits hit?  Will a single SRM missile only do 1pt of damage?

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6396
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1403 on: 18 February 2021, 17:17:20 »
I seek clarification on ferro-lamelor armor.  The rule is it deflects 1pt of damage for every five, or fraction thereof.  Am I right in thinking that an LB-20x cluster round fired at a Warcrow will do no damage, even if all 20 bits hit?  Will a single SRM missile only do 1pt of damage?
Correct on both questions.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society
Nebula Confederation Ships

Rainbow 6

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2559
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1404 on: 18 February 2021, 17:30:45 »

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16989
  • Not smarter than a fifth grader
    • Master Unit List
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1405 on: 18 February 2021, 17:36:55 »
What was the ruling on motive crits and vtol rotor hits? Do they trigger despite tHE LB pellets causing no damage? I seem to recall it being discussed in the rules area but I can’t find the thread

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
what is being a battletech fan besides accepting a bad, poorly informed take twenty years ago, reciting it repeatedly as fact, and never bothering to update your opinion by reading anything new?

jimdigris

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8106
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1406 on: 18 February 2021, 17:37:28 »
Correct on both questions.
BWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
I wonder how many designs have primarily LB-X or other cluster rounds. :)

jimdigris

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8106
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1407 on: 18 February 2021, 17:38:32 »
What was the ruling on motive crits and vtol rotor hits? Do they trigger despite tHE LB pellets causing no damage? I seem to recall it being discussed in the rules area but I can’t find the thread
They are resolved normally.

Starfury

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 497
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1408 on: 18 February 2021, 17:50:10 »
The true question for C refits of course is the following: When will that most glorious of bug mechs, the Flea, see a Clan refit?

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5638
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 2
« Reply #1409 on: 18 February 2021, 18:08:52 »
BWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
I wonder how many designs have primarily LB-X or other cluster rounds. :)
Mostly the Outworlds Alliance because the designers for some reason think because you are good at flying you need to be good at AA.

 

Register