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Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here  (Read 66812 times)

Sartris

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Basically gone by 2835. At -1 ton and -1 crit they weren’t exactly a technological marvel.

PACs are basically the clan’s take on LACs

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Scotty

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And somehow inferior, at that.  LAC/2s are pretty useless regardless of what range bands are being used, but a LAC/5 might be reasonably worth using in their own right (as opposed to in relief of a defunct/worse piece of equipment) if there was a Clan version with an 18 or 21 hex range.
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All Improved ACs are noted as extinct in 2833. They had a shelf life of fifteen years, 300 years ago.

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Honestly, it never made sense to me that standard AC getting special ammo other AC couldn't use. I mean come on, the whole point of the LB-X was to more than one ammo type but development stopped after cluster rounds and then 7 more ammo types are made for standard ACs? 
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Honestly, it never made sense to me that standard AC getting special ammo other AC couldn't use. I mean come on, the whole point of the LB-X was to more than one ammo type but development stopped after cluster rounds and then 7 more ammo types are made for standard ACs?

In universe it makes 0 sense. Gameplay it keeps old ACs relevant

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I’m kind of a latecomer to this thread, but I wanted to thank Scotty for his reviews.  I haven’t picked up all of the Rec Guides yet, and he’s definitely swayed me more toward completing the set.  Also, made me take a second look at several mechs, most notably the Hammerhead.  My first look was basically “Meh, fine.  Durable, but *those* guns on a clan 45 tonner?  Pitiful.  Sure it takes all day to kill, but its not going to kill you quick either.”  I definitely undervalued the stability of hardened+leg AES, for example.  I still feel like switching the LPL for an ERPPC or HLL would make it better, seems like having a headcapper would be good on a design with that few guns.  YMMV  But it’s definitely better than I first gave it credit for.  Too bad it’s apparently one the Foxes aren’t selling to the IS.


If you don’t mind my asking, Scotty, how do you value Hardened vs Ferro-Lam?  Seems like FL is harder to evaluate, since it very much depends on the guns people are shooting back with, but I generally prefer it to hardened, in part because FL doesn’t gimp your speed and PSRs (not that I get to use either much).
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BrianDavion

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Honestly, it never made sense to me that standard AC getting special ammo other AC couldn't use. I mean come on, the whole point of the LB-X was to more than one ammo type but development stopped after cluster rounds and then 7 more ammo types are made for standard ACs?

the point was to keep standard autocanons relevant. because before the rise of special ammo, the LB10X had rendered the standard AC COMPLETELY obselete

Scotty

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Then standard ACs should have died as any other primitive technology and the game would be far better off.

If you don’t mind my asking, Scotty, how do you value Hardened vs Ferro-Lam?  Seems like FL is harder to evaluate, since it very much depends on the guns people are shooting back with, but I generally prefer it to hardened, in part because FL doesn’t gimp your speed and PSRs (not that I get to use either much).

For Hardened: it depeneds on how it's used.  A 'Mech that has Hardened armor that isn't exceeding its effective armor on any locations is wasting Hardened armor.  It is a tool designed explicitly to allow a unit to surpass previous limits of durability.  The Hammerhead isn't maxed armor, but it doesn't need maxed armor because it has significantly more armor than any 45 tonner ever could have had without it.  The Amarok, on the other hand, has Hardened Armor and then.... does absolutely nothing with it.  It exceeds half points on two locations, both arms, by 1 point each.  It would have been nearly identical to just use Standard Armor, but without the PSR or MP downsides.

For Ferro-Lamellor: it's ****** good.  It provides protection against every single hit in the game that isn't a Re-Engineered Laser, and it does a *minimum* of 20% more and up to 100% more in the case of things like SRMs.  In order to come out ahead in a comparison with standard armor you need to mount approximately 80% of max coverage, which is heavier than the equivalent especially in Clan Ferro, but you gain so much from it for practically no downsides at all.

Comparing Hardened to Ferro Lam directly is difficult to the point of being impossible.  Ferro Lam is the kind of armor that should be standard in the hypothetical perfect future, but Hardened offers advantages over it in a few key places.  Even if Ferro Lam works *perfectly* against nothing but SRMs and AC/2s, that's the only way it can match maximum Hardened, so there will always be a place for Hardened that Ferro Lam just can't quite reach.  This is honestly the genesis of a good tradeoff, and I'd like to see more of both.

Perhaps more directly, a hypothetical Hammerhead 2 that wasn't designed for export and instead used Ferro-Lamellor would be significantly more dangerous than a Hammerhead (Standard) but wouldn't likely outstrip it in durability.  There would be a space for both in a given force.
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Jellico

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I will quite happily swap Std for Hardened ton for ton on tanks. The pilot rolls and mobility effects aren't as bad and you get more benefit from the crit modifiers.

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In universe it makes 0 sense. Gameplay it keeps old ACs relevant

I could never get over reducing the number of rounds per ton by half. Most designs didn't give deep ammo bins to ACs to begin with. You want 10 rounds of AC ammo for that Rifleman? 5 rounds for your Enforcer? Nah. Too steep a drawback at that point to try to keep an old 'Mech "relevant" against post-invasion designs. A few designs with LACs interest me, just not enough to go out of my way to use them.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Yeah, they added new ammo types to keep the guns relevant but then halved the ammo per ton to keep the original ammo from being outclassed. ???
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Scotty

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I will quite happily swap Std for Hardened ton for ton on tanks. The pilot rolls and mobility effects aren't as bad and you get more benefit from the crit modifiers.

Oh yes.  Hardened inexplicably has fewer downsides on vehicles for no reason whatsoever, and the calculus there is an instant and unequivocal "yes, do that".
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Starfury

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Perhaps if we had the full set of LACs completed (10s and 20s) or the penalties for caseless ammo could be combined with alternate ammo types I could see more use for standard autocannons, but I rarely use them.  Given the new found availability of Clantech along with better design philosophies, they just don't have an appeal for me on mechs. Vehicles simply make better use of them, just as you pointed out hardened armor does. I think the only Clan mech that mounts a standard AC is the Mongrel.  Compare that to a Partisan or a Pike, and the difference is easy to spot.

Scotty

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Alternately: remove the downsides from basically all alternate autocannon ammo (except Armor Piercing's hit mod) and accept that the standard AC ammo is well and truly obsolete.
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Jal Phoenix

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I'm in favor of consolidating all ACs into just one type. Pick the most efficient weight and crits for each class. All ammo types, including LBX, can be fired from all guns. All guns can also fire at double rate (RAC rates for class 2 and 5), but only while using standard ammo. Suddenly the only thing that's obsolete is all the extra space taken up on the weapons tables. No more LBX, Ultra, Standard, Light, Improved or Hyper-Velocity. One type of AC does it all, and still comes in class 2, 5, 10 or 20.

BrianDavion

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I'm in favor of consolidating all ACs into just one type. Pick the most efficient weight and crits for each class. All ammo types, including LBX, can be fired from all guns. All guns can also fire at double rate (RAC rates for class 2 and 5), but only while using standard ammo. Suddenly the only thing that's obsolete is all the extra space taken up on the weapons tables. No more LBX, Ultra, Standard, Light, Improved or Hyper-Velocity. One type of AC does it all, and still comes in class 2, 5, 10 or 20.

why not just simplify things further? and reduce the game to "small gun, medium gun, large gun"? :)

GuyIncognito

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Is that how simple the FedRats need things to keep it all straight?

CVB

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Alternately: remove the downsides from basically all alternate autocannon ammo (except Armor Piercing's hit mod) and accept that the standard AC ammo is well and truly obsolete.

Maybe leaving high availabilty and low cost for campaigns as benefits.
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Scotty

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I'm in favor of consolidating all ACs into just one type. Pick the most efficient weight and crits for each class. All ammo types, including LBX, can be fired from all guns. All guns can also fire at double rate (RAC rates for class 2 and 5), but only while using standard ammo. Suddenly the only thing that's obsolete is all the extra space taken up on the weapons tables. No more LBX, Ultra, Standard, Light, Improved or Hyper-Velocity. One type of AC does it all, and still comes in class 2, 5, 10 or 20.

I'd still rather have higher ROF guns be a separate type if only because I'm imagining what having all capabilities available would do to the BV and it makes me want a fainting couch.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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We'll replace all autocannons with the Universal Omnicannon, which fires Armor-Piercing Precision Cluster ammo.
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Arkansas Warrior

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I'm in favor of consolidating all ACs into just one type. Pick the most efficient weight and crits for each class. All ammo types, including LBX, can be fired from all guns. All guns can also fire at double rate (RAC rates for class 2 and 5), but only while using standard ammo. Suddenly the only thing that's obsolete is all the extra space taken up on the weapons tables. No more LBX, Ultra, Standard, Light, Improved or Hyper-Velocity. One type of AC does it all, and still comes in class 2, 5, 10 or 20.
I endorse this.  But also, stop having multi-rate shots roll on the cluster table.  Instead, have the second (third, fourth) make a separate attack roll at an increasing penalty (think of it like fighting muzzle climb etc when firing an automatic rifle).  Maybe +2 for ultras, stacking +1 per additional shot for rotary.
Sunrise is Coming.

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We are going into fan rule territory now.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Yeah, that’s fair.
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All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Colt Ward

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All Improved ACs are noted as extinct in 2833. They had a shelf life of fifteen years, 300 years ago.

Except for all those stock Inner Sphere designs from the Star League that were still left, or returned to caches, as the Improved & Prototype weapons were created.  FREX, the Black Knight on the Goliath Scorpion RAT from FMWC is not really going to match up with the same specs it had when the SLDF went on their 3 hour tour.  Or when the Invaders were breaking them out of caches to replace losses post-Tukayyid while filling out garrison clusters.

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Regarding the Hammerhead . . . I think the Large Pulse makes perfect sense- if you ARE going to carry limited weapons, you want to make sure they hit as much as possible, so the cLPL as the main gun makes absolute sense.  Does that mean I would be shocked if old elite Petr Kalasa's personal Hammerhead gets tweaked to mount a cERPPC b/c he is going to be able to hit with it as much as the average Clan warrior assigned a Hammeread?  Nope.
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MarauderD

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I forget, are we on Rec Guide 19 next with the ratings?

Scotty

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Yes.  I've been sick the last couple days or it would be up already.
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MarauderD

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Yes.  I've been sick the last couple days or it would be up already.

No rush, I've just been enjoying them.  Everyone in my family has a nasty cold, so I understand completely.  Besides, if you don't slow down you'll come up against the moratorium on Volumes 23 and 24, right?

Scotty

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That's happening regardless.  I'm going to butt up against the moratorium for 22 (Feb 5) and for 23/24 it's going to result in a decent wait (Feb 19)
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Kerfuffin(925)

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That's happening regardless.  I'm going to butt up against the moratorium for 22 (Feb 5) and for 23/24 it's going to result in a decent wait (Feb 19)

There was only one week in between the 22 and the final two, so unless for your reasons the 6 weeks should be up sooner. Right I think?

I have been enjoying the reviews

ManicMaestro

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Hey Scotty, hope you feel better! Just want to say that your series of reviews have been the highlight on the forums for me recently, so I'm looking forward to the last few guides.

 

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