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Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here  (Read 23547 times)

Natasha Kerensky

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I don’t find four headcappers boring, but I still despise the Crucible for its slow speed and inefficiency versus the Hellstar (just buy Hellstars!), especially when combined with its unforgivably low armor.  The 2 and 3 are just goofy.  I guess they’re secondline mechs, but it’s hard to see how the “heroes” of ilClan succeeded with such bad designs.
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Sartris

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I guess they’re secondline mechs, but it’s hard to see how the “heroes” of ilClan succeeded with such bad designs.

confidence and winning smile

BrianDavion

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I don’t find four headcappers boring, but I still despise the Crucible for its slow speed and inefficiency versus the Hellstar (just buy Hellstars!), especially when combined with its unforgivably low armor.  The 2 and 3 are just goofy.  I guess they’re secondline mechs, but it’s hard to see how the “heroes” of ilClan succeeded with such bad designs.

the hellstar is an aweful design. it's like the type of mech that every 12 year old designs when he first discovers SSW

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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I don’t find four headcappers boring, but I still despise the Crucible for its slow speed and inefficiency versus the Hellstar (just buy Hellstars!), especially when combined with its unforgivably low armor.  The 2 and 3 are just goofy.  I guess they’re secondline mechs, but it’s hard to see how the “heroes” of ilClan succeeded with such bad designs.

The Hellstar is boring because its strategy is just "park in woods, set a brick on the fire button, nap."  Every fight it gets into, that's all it does.  The Crucible is much the same except that it can run out of ammo and it's decidedly easier to kill due to less armor and parts that explode when critted.  Also, it looks like a pile of... something.  Some sort of unlicensed knockoff of the Blood Asp.  The kind you find on the shelf in a discount toy store that's got a box featuring a lot of kanji words you don't understand plus some gratuitous English title like "Transformation Robot!"
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Aotrs Commander

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Again, I can only look at the Gladiator G and try and wonder under what scenario (aside from alucky headshot, but that applies to anything with an ER PPC/Guass etc) why it could possibly be valued more than the Crucible 1 or 2, as I really can't see it being better. Unless they armour is truely awful (and worse than the Gladiator's, which it doesn't sound quite like it is).


This section was written during the review of the Archer ARC-5S.  I have removed it and put it in its own post because it was getting way too long and waxing philosophical.

One thing that I noticed this week is people discussing the contradictions that can feel like they're inherent to judging a unit by its price and deciding "good" or "bad" on those merits.  Unfortunately, in a system as complex as BattleTech it's possible (arguably easy) to construct a unit that is less than the sum of its parts.  This is one of those 'Mechs.  These 'Mechs have all the pieces in the right place and go together in the right way, but they end up inferior to a 'Mech that has been designed in a way that can be used effectively.  It's not possible for any balancing system to properly account for these edges and subtleties, and frankly I'd be terrified to even try.  This doesn't mean the balancing system is bad.  What it means is that there is still a measure of player skill involved in force building and unit design.  If it was possible to accurately cost all units in a vacuum regardless of construction or design, what point would there be in building a force in the first place?  Grabbing a handful of record sheets from a binder would be no better or worse than actually trying to build a good force.  I'll pass on playing that game, thanks.

What a balancing system should attempt to do is provide a common base level, a sort of blank foundation that a player can use to build their roster in such a way that if they put appropriate effort and develop the appropriate skill, they approach a player of equal skill on equal ground.  If I put I am attempting to create a roster that I can use to win games at a particular points level, I would expect to perform better than the alternate reality version of me with the identical skill level in BattleTech who instead chose to draw variant designations out of a hat the night before.  This is not indicative of a problem.  There must be an incentive to perform for a balancing system to be effective.  If there is not, why are you even bothering to play a balanced game in the first place?

A system which contains some designs which are inherently inferior and some sub-optimal combinations are a bit over-valued by the system is not bad.

A system which contains some designs which are inherently inferior AND are given a massively inflated cost by the balancing system such that they are essentially newbie traps IS bad.

On the one hand, you don't want D&D4E where essentially everything is homogonised into being almost the same in the name of "balance."

On the other, you also don't want (core) D&D 3.5 where some options (the ones, even, that sound the most basic) are so much more sub-optimal than others it becomes a standing joke.

I agree some level of system mastery should be rewarded... But at the same time, LACK of system mastery should not be actively punitive.

(Hell, in this day an age, with the wargaming population slowly vanishing, you can be lucky if you can find anyone willing to turn up and PLAY period, let alone be interested enough to be making their own force or always even have their own toys*.)

You also do not want to follow the example, (over in the UK), the competative ancients wargaming scene, in which the gaming rules (e.g. De Bellis Multitdinous) were distorted and distorted and army lists changed repeatedly - in the end, allowing armies of such overly larger size that they lined up the entire width of the table or in some cases, could't even all be deployed on table without a flank march - basically because the players wanted to win the night before in army list composition and not on the day. (BT is not that, obviosuly, but the point stands.)

(By comparison, I can only point to Maneouvre Group, which is fundementally a real-world-armour tactics simulator, in which the authors occasionally play against a gentleman who was a former platoon commander and have gotten trounced every time, even before the guy knew the rules, because better tactics. That's a standard to aspire to.)

You should, ultimately, be able to win because you're a better general (and no amount of rules can make a bad player into a good general).



This discussion is highlighting to me that there are more serious flaws in the BV2 system than I previously thought (and the Gladiator G seems to be the poster-child for that, since the BV is completely bonkers compared to its actual capabilities).

But given my complete lack of programming skills (short of trying to crib something together in Excel) and the fact that (even if I didn't play with house-rules) I only get to even play solo once in a blue moon, there's not really much I could do about it, which is frustrating, because I always try and put my money where my mouth is when it comes to finding Stuff I Don't Like in rules and Do It Myself, even if only for myself. (See also 1500+ pages of house-rules to 3.5/Pathfinder 1 which is functionally it's own total-conversion mod/edition.)



*The only guy I even know who has his own mechs more or less stopped wargaming period years ago. Anyone I play with now (IF I ever get to play aside from on my own again, as my mates all seem increasingly not bothered about playing anything and I'm so tired of spendig every singlw waking moment chasing people for literally every single activity I perform, work or play) will be using my stuff, with me making the force lists for both sides.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2022, 07:04:21 by Aotrs Commander »

Natasha Kerensky

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the hellstar is an aweful design. it's like the type of mech that every 12 year old designs when he first discovers SSW

I get that the Hellstar is an over-optimized, munchkin, BV-hog of a design.  That said, I appreciate its brutal simplicity and elegance.  I’ve been designing since I was almost 12 and have probably at least glanced at every design on the design boards here and previous iterations of this and similar sites, all the way back to rec.games.mecha.  I had never seen anything like the Hellstar until it came out, and I think it took a very good or very lucky designer to find that niche in the design space.

The Hellstar is boring because its strategy is just "park in woods, set a brick on the fire button, nap."  Every fight it gets into, that's all it does.  The Crucible is much the same except that it can run out of ammo and it's decidedly easier to kill due to less armor and parts that explode when critted.

I guess what really bugs me is that the Crucible takes up limited RecGuide real estate replicating an existing capability (four ranged headcappers) poorly (slower and much less armor than the long-established Hellstar) at the same BV2 (actually a bit higher).  To earn a slot in a RecGuide, TRO, or RS volume, a design should either bring a different capability or an improved capability to the game.  Leave the suboptimal, flavor, and bad designs for Shrapnel, XTROs, sourcebooks/scenario packs, etc.  I’m trying to win games and tournaments here with the official stuff, not shoot myself in the foot.

There will always be marginal designs, so some of this will always be in the eye of the beholder.  Everything can’t be a breakthrough design like the Hammerhead.  But it’s hard to see the Crucible as even a marginal case.  It just duplicates yet sucks compared to what’s come before.

I could maybe see a case for the Crucible if it was, say, a Clan Homeworlds design, where they don’t have access to the Hellstar.  But it’s Wolf design.  And the Wolves have access to the Hellstar thru the Exiles.  C’mon!

Quote
Also, it looks like a pile of... something.  Some sort of unlicensed knockoff of the Blood Asp.  The kind you find on the shelf in a discount toy store that's got a box featuring a lot of kanji words you don't understand plus some gratuitous English title like "Transformation Robot!"

Ha, its looks are the only thing I like about the Crucible!
« Last Edit: 15 January 2022, 10:00:27 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Jellico

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The looks are of a knock off Stone Rhino. Note the legs and lower chassis.

bobthecoward

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Leave the suboptimal, flavor, and bad designs for Shrapnel, XTROs, sourcebooks/scenario packs, etc.  I’m trying to win games and tournaments here with the official stuff, not shoot myself in the foot.


Emphasize suboptimal designs in the rec guides. I'm trying to simulate inner sphere battles with the equipment used in those battles, not win games.

Middcore

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Ha, its looks are the only thing I like about the Crucible!

Yeah it looks fine. It looks like a Nightstar IIC.

Sartris

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Emphasize suboptimal designs in the rec guides. I'm trying to simulate inner sphere battles with the equipment used in those battles, not win games.

Inner sphere generals are trying to win wars. Junk is for the militia

Natasha Kerensky

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Emphasize suboptimal designs in the rec guides. I'm trying to simulate inner sphere battles with the equipment used in those battles, not win games.

To be clear, I have no problem with optimal for its time and place.  A good Succession Wars design will not compete in the ilClan Era, and that’s okay.  It still deserves to be in a TRO.

Given limited RecGuide real estate for new designs, I just want to avoid using that real estate on the Urbanmechs of the ilClan Era.  I think the Crucible qualifies as not belonging under that rule of thumb.

Put it another, if we’d never use a design in a tournament, it doesn’t belong in a RecGuide.  Put it in Shrapnel or another, less official source.

IMO, of course... YMMV.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

bobthecoward

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To be clear, I have no problem with optimal for its time and place.  A good Succession Wars design will not compete in the ilClan Era, and that’s okay.  It still deserves to be in a TRO.

Given limited RecGuide real estate for new designs, I just want to avoid using that real estate on the Urbanmechs of the ilClan Era.  I think the Crucible qualifies as not belonging under that rule of thumb.

Put it another, if we’d never use a design in a tournament, it doesn’t belong in a RecGuide.  Put it in Shrapnel or another, less official source.

IMO, of course... YMMV.

Priority should be placed.on the urbanmechs of the ilclan era.

SteelRaven

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I'm honestly tired of people complaining about the Hellstar and the like only because the same people then complain about a mech being under optimized. If you think it's boring, fine, I get that. Just stop posting a easy on the internet about how it's a crime against the game or something every time it comes up.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2022, 13:07:42 by SteelRaven »
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At least they’ve (mostly) stopped complaining about the BNC-3S?
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At least they’ve (mostly) stopped complaining about the BNC-3S?

,,, I am glad I have never been there for that one xp
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Greatclub

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At least they’ve (mostly) stopped complaining about the BNC-3S?

And now I wander what it was like when the Marauder II came out.

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At least they’ve (mostly) stopped complaining about the BNC-3S?

I'm waiting for the complaints about the Cyclops C once Vol 21 is cleared
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Middcore

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If anything the Banshee 3S has never seemed to get enough praise for being the best IntroTech assault, it seems to me.

I have nothing to say about the Hellstar except that it suffers from the "Unseen BattleMaster bubblehead syndrome" where the cockpit is so gigantic it throws off the visual scale of the whole thing and makes it look like it's half the tonnage it's supposed to be. At least the BattleMaster was frequently supposed to be equipped with a dual cockpit.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2022, 13:55:24 by Middcore »

SteelRaven

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There is less of it now but there are niche players who would call you a munchkin for not playing a bug mech during the SW era as that was the most common mech.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2022, 14:53:55 by SteelRaven »
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klarg1

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There is less of it now but there are niche players who would call you a munchkin for not playing a bug mech during the SW era as that was the most common mech.

I have personally always felt that ranged weapons were overpowered.  :P

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There is less of it now but there are niche players who would call you a munchkin for not playing a bug mech during the SW era as that was the most common mech.

You play battlemechs? Only cheesemonkeys play anything but industrialmechs. That's what the creators intended!
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You play battlemechs? Only cheesemonkeys play anything but industrialmechs. That's what the creators intended!
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I prefer the Crucible over the Hellstar, simply due to less heat and drop off in losing firepower as you lose heat sinks. I also prefer the Crucible's art over the Hellstar. Of course the Wolves have access to both, and one of the things I've noticed is that you need higher BV totals in battles between Dark Age and ilClan front line units to reflect the higher BV costs of the Jihad and later era units in play.  As for optimized designs vs decent vs bad designs in various supplements, bring them all on. 

None of the newly updated/new mechs Recugide configs, variants or mechs are truly awful in comparison to 3050/3025/2750 failures like the Champion, the Assassin, the 3050 Quickdraw, the 3050 Grasshopper, or the Shadow Hawk 2D.  They all serve a purpose, and I can see myself using them in any battle. BV is always going to be controversial, since point values don't equal efficiency from units.  I'll add my other arguments on the units in 10 I'm a bit.

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At least they’ve (mostly) stopped complaining about the BNC-3S?

I will never not complain about the false Banshee! >:D
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I will never not complain about the false Banshee! >:D

Well, at least your honest with yourself going by Weirdo.
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Mine just started, but I think I'm a C or C-, trying to figure out how to calculate my average
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I'll hold against you if you like, wantec.

bobthecoward

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Who made the hellstar? Was something that efficient their goal when they sat down?

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Speaking of the Shadow Hawk, had a chance to watch some Fang of the Sun Dougram and am just.....disappointed?  That the mech itself could handily take on Griffins and other mechs of its generation, yet in Battletech its the weakest of the trio.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2022, 22:30:25 by Luciora »