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Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here  (Read 68177 times)

nckestrel

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Scotty's way isn't the only way to analyze the "value" of various units, but it's a useful one. And the more consistent he is with it, the more useful the ratings are.  I was concerned initially that S ratings would be all ubermunch Clan assaults, but the BV concerns makes all sorts of options viable. (While making some options unviable, like the often mentioned MASC/supercharger/jump combo).
You could rate units on uniqueness.   Or list them by faction to see which factions got more.  Or evaluate what's available in particular eras.
But randomly introducing them in to one unit's rating, or even introducing them in all ratings, would devalue what Scotty's ratings are doing now.

EDIT: Except for artillery, Scotty is just wrong there :).
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Scotty

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Perhaps ironically, the ubermunch Clan Assaults are the overall least likely units to get an S from me on the whole than most other types.  I think Lights struggle the most, and empirically they're currently at 0 in the series.  That's by and large a commentary on how hard it is to build a good config on most Invasion era Light Omnis than anything else, though.  The plurality (and I don't think it's close) are going to be Mediums, with Heavies taking second.

Right now I think of the 7 so far we have:

Hammerhead
Black Lanner F
One of the Stormcrows
Two different War Crows
Zeus 11S
Supernova 5


I appear to have miscounted my own ratings.  I am very good at this:

Hammerhead, two varieties of Carrion Crow, Black Lanner F, Stormcrow K
War Crow C
Zeus 11S, Supernova 5

I think my biases in there are pretty clear, honestly.   We're going to see at least three more S rated Assaults in this series I can think of off the top of my head and exactly none of them are old mechs with new versions. Which is really a testament to how excellent the designs in the latter third of the series were.

If I ever expand this to non-Rec Guide versions of these units or non-Rec Guide units in general we'd definitely see the proportion of S go way up in the middle weight brackets (and even have a couple Lights. RIP Gunsmith).
« Last Edit: 23 January 2022, 14:52:45 by Scotty »
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Scotty

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Also for anyone who remembers the Awesome AWS-11H and why it got an A grade instead of an S?  A Clan XL and 4/6 fits if you drop one heat sink, and the resulting BV from that is 2106.  This is instantly S tier, and the only thing holding the design back at all.
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Weirdo

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The Black Lanner G seems like a great way to go back to the Lanner's original mission, which is to provide heavy ranged backup to scouting Fire Falcons. The big laser can put accurate and heavy fire into anything they find, and the multiple missile racks makes it easy to lay down a wide curtain of smoke to give the Falcons cover to either escape or set up their own attack run, while the Black Lanner switches to explosive rounds.
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Extensive smokescreens are one of the few good reasons to go with a bunch of little launchers over fewer bigger ones.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Recognition Guide: IlClan Volume 16.  Unlike yesterday, today's theme is peaks and valleys:

Locust LCT-1Vb: I appreciate this book starting with the best Locust.  Funny enough, I was just saying like two posts ago how it's very hard for a Light 'Mech to get an S rating?  Say hello to one of the contenders.  It shares a lot with a common Locust, like the 8/12 speed and the 20 ton size.  It has an XL Engine, which is a tiny bit of a downside, but it can survive a 10 point hit to the side torso by virtue of having maximum armor for a 20 tonner.  What does it do with this payload space?  It puts on two Medium Pulse Lasers, two Small Pulse Lasers, and a Medium Laser to bring you a speedy, lethally accurate pain in the ass that can and will force a PSR on you when you least expect it.  It does this for the bargain price of 642 BV and no overheat whatsoever.  This is crisp, clean perfection in 'Mech form.  There are exactly zero free crits left in this 'Mech, and in an extreme pinch you can flip the arms with all the pulse lasers if the torso twist doesn't quite line up right with the MP you have.  Would this be better with Clantech?  Yes, undoubtedly.  Would it still be this cheap?  Not even close.  This is one of very few near-perfectly designed 'Mechs, and one of only handful of examples in the entire game of the feat occurring on a Light 'Mech, let alone a 20 tonner.  Beautiful.  S

Locust LCT-3D: In contrast to that gold standard above, the Locust 3D is still 8/12, has a Standard engine, and is otherwise worse in every way.  We have two LRM 5s and about 2/3rds of the total armor.  The ammo is in the center torso, but someone has been thoughtful enough to include CASE for... some reason.  The side torsos are completely empty, giving you not one, not two, but three locations to hit to fish for that ammo explosion.  Not that you need to, because it only takes 11 points of damage to the center torso to wipe this insect from the face of the planet.  The BV at 436 rescues it from complete meaninglessness but I am not impressed.  D

Locust LCT-3M: The armor is a tiny bit better and so are the guns.  Now it takes a whole 12 points of damage to core the CT, and each side torso will actually survive a 10 point hit.  Progress.  We have four Small Lasers and a Medium Laser, plus an AMS.  The AMS is in an arm while the AMS ammo is in the same side torso.  There's CASE there, but the only available crit in that torso is the AMS ammo, and the other torso is completely barren.  Bad critical layouts is something that's going to come up in a number of Locust variants, and it's worth mentioning here.  Standard engine means that the ammo going up in smoke isn't instantly fatal, but you should probably leave at that point anyway.  The BV at 522 is okay if you can leverage your opponent in to leaving this 'Mech entirely alone but the extremely short range of most if your weapons is a downside.  C

Locust LCT-3S: At least the range is better on this one than the Locust 3M.  We have a Medium Laser and a pair of Streak SRM 2s with one ton of ammo.  The ammo situation is exactly as bad as it was on the 3M, with a single ton in a CASE'd side torso that has nothing in it.  The armor is back to the Locust 3D terrible standard.  The BV is better at 483, and I'd take this over the 3D in most circumstances, but I'd rather not take one of these at all.  That's a common theme for the -3 series.  C-

Locust LCT-5S: I like this better than either the 5D and the 3S but only by a matter of degree.  Here we have two MML 3s and an ER Medium Laser.  Improving on the range of the 3S and the weapons of the 3D is a nice compromise.  The downside: there's only one ton of MML 3 ammo so pick which variant you'd rather be a marginally more useful version of.  The upside: There are now a bunch of double heat sink crits in the side torsos, so they're no longer rattling echo chambers for BBs to seek explosives or engine hits.  The BV at 509 is better than the 3S and the 3D, but the inability to fill both roles rather than picking one or the other at game time is a disappointment.  The effort for improvement is there, at least.  C-

Locust LCT-7S: Oh, here we go.  We're back to an XL Engine like the Locust 1Vb, but this time it's used to turbocharge the speed, up to 12/18.  That's appreciably fast enough to be dangerous even without guns.  The guns here are a pair of Machine Guns and a Clan ER Medium Laser.  It can't force PSRs, but it can deal big enough hits that you really don't want to let it in your back arc.  The XL Engine also happens to be Clan, which strongly improves your durability.  The armor is maximum like the 1Vb, and the machine gun ammo is a half ton (thank god) in a torso with CASE in it.  Amusingly, the fact that we have IS doubles here is an improvement because it cuts down on the odds of having the MG ammo go up in flames.  Good show.  The BV at 706 means it's more expensive than the 1Vb, and while I think the 1Vb is the better 'Mech partially because of that, the extra range of the Clan ER Medium and the extra speed give you compelling reasons to want to pick this in some matchups.  A

Locust LCT-7V: This is an odd comparison to the 7S.  On the one hand, the ranges of its main guns work better, and its main gun is as accurate or better at their shared ranges, but the combination of all three guns is only 10 points.  The speed splits the difference between earlier model Locusts and the 7S at 10/15, and the armor stays at maximum.  There's a Light Fusion Engine that allows this to happen, which puts its durability exactly on par with the 7S and explains the difference in speed all on its own.  The BV is 585, which makes this a genuine choice between the longer ranged and slightly harder hitting 7S or the more accurate at midrange and cheaper 7V.  I like that this is a choice to make.  The only downside here is that MagShots suck and they could have been AP Gauss.  That's it.  A

Locust LCT-7V2: Oh look, a variant that immediately addresses both of the things that I was just talking about.  Now the range here is superior to the 7S in exchange for a bit of hitting power (Light PPC), and the secondary guns (ER Small Lasers) are shorter ranged but now entirely energy.  Not being able to explode is a small but meaningful improvement.  The BV is higher at 634 entirely thanks to the Light PPC.  All things considered, I think I prefer them in the order 7V -> 7S -> 7V2, but it's largely splitting hairs, they're all good.  A

Locust C: The Locust C is probably the best C compared to the original that there is.  The armor isn't max but it's close, and the guns are superlative compared to the 1E that it's based on.  We have a Clan Medium Pulse Laser and two ER Small Lasers.  This is another situation where I'm going to complain about the "Mixed" tech base despite having absolutely no effect on the record sheet.  The BV here at 672 is similar to the 1Vb, and surprisingly the 1Vb actually has the damage advantage.  The Clan Medium Pulse has the significantly better range, though, and if the fight gets to two hexes it's basically anyone's game simply due to how fragile they are.  Another good backstabber with no heat issues.  I think this is right there in and among the 7C/7V/7V2 competing for runner up to the 1Vb but it's close.  A

Locust IIC: And then the Locust IIC comes along and casually demolishes all of them.  We have 8/12 speed with a Standard Engine, significantly better armor and internals, significantly better guns in the form of eight ER Small Lasers, and a Medium Pulse Laser.  All of this generates +2 heat running, and you can simply leave off a couple of ER Smalls to regulate heat if necessary.  The BV climbs significantly at 1100, but you're more durable and you can comfortably force PSRs against multiple targets if necessary.  It takes a lot to earn an S, and the Locust IIC does a lotS

Locust IIC 2: Switching ER Smalls to Streak SRM 2s doubles the effective range, and the switch from Medium Pulse to ER Medium also extends the range, but you lose a lot of damage.  It's still capable of forcing a PSR assuming all weapons hit, but this isn't an assumption easily born out.  The BV is lower at 937, but there's nothing nearly as pants-shittingly terrifying as the Standard cruising up behind you and unloading 40+ points of damage.  Still not bad, but not the kind of 'Mech that makes everyone on the field sit up a bit straighter when you declare attacks.  B+

Locust IIC 3: Two Small Pulse Lasers and an ER Large.  We've gained a lot of range and completely lost the ability to force a PSR.  The BV is still relatively high at 980.  There are other Light 'Mechs that do this job better even if they're more expensive.  I'd rather have a Fire Falcon of some stripe in almost every circumstance.  C

Locust IIC 10: How do you make a Locust IIC scarier?  You give it Reflective Armor.  This isn't all upside, the Medium Pulse had to become an ER Medium to fit equivalent protection from losing Ferro Fibrous, but there's still the full battery of ER Small Lasers.  Reflective also makes it more expensive, to the tune of 1248.  I think that actually takes it just out of the most effective band and prevents this from being a truly superlative 'Mech, especially since it means that the legs are more vulnerable to similarly sized opponents.  Anything larger than 25 tons can start causing crits with the first kick and it's not quite fast enough to make that a non-issue.  It's still very good, don't get me wrong, but it's just that shy of greatness.  A

Stormwolf Prime: I didn't realize this was in this book when I started today.  I have a lot of issues with the Stormwolf, and they are all issues that ultimately come down to the difference between a BV balanced game and a game not balanced by BV.  Stormwolf configs push the envelope on what a single 'Mech record sheet is capable of accomplishing in a game, much like the Thresher Mk II and a couple other 'Mechs coming up in future volumes.  The problem is that they push that envelope by pouring gasoline on the fire that burns BV points.  The base Stormwolf is a 6/9[15]/6 'Mech with Reflective armor and a fixed Laser AMS.  Those are all choices, alright.  It has an XL Engine, and the fixed crits mean that it has a lot of room in each torso to put things.  The arms have a handful of slots available but in the Prime at least are empty.  The armor is reasonable for its size, maximum all over save the legs (four points down) and the center torso (one point low).  That's good armor, even, and I can't fault the layout or the amount.  The guns are a Clan RAC/5 with three tons of ammo (that is, at least, enough ammo) protected by CASE II, a Light TAG, and an ER Medium Laser.  This is capable of triggering a PSR on average cluster rolls for the most efficient rate of fire, but only barely.  It's possible to overheat but requires jumping and the LAMS to kick in, and cooling down is relatively easy thanks to the variable shots of the RAC.  This is fairly anemic for a 50 ton 'Mech, but in and of itself I'm willing to let it slide depending on what the BV comes out as.  That's where the Problem sets in.  The Stormwolf Prime is 2788 BV.  This is, if you'll pardon my language, ****** insane.  If you really, desperately need a fast 'Mech with a RAC/5, Medium Lasers, and even Reflective armor just mix and match any two Legionnaire variants and be better off.  F

Stormwolf A: This is the exciting version of the Stormwolf where the RAC has been replaced with weapons capable of overheating.  We have a Clan Large Pulse Laser (good!) and a Plasma Rifle (...normally good!), plus an Active Probe and the same fixed LAMS.  If the LAMS triggers, you take +7 heat while running or up to +11 while jumping and firing both guns.  There is not a simple way to sink that heat outside of dropping a gun entirely, at which point you sink it slowly (-3) if the LAMS triggers or potentially not at all (+1) if jumping and the LAMS triggers.  I hate that the LAMS is fixed, because on this config in particular I would just rather it not exist.  But it does exist, and you have to pay for it.  Speaking of paying, the BV here is "only" 2655 for a pair of guns that must both connect to force a PSR and you must avoid the LAMS triggering to avoid overheating if you use them.  Cool.  F

Stormwolf B: This one goes out to everyone who was genuinely thinking to themselves "How do we make this even less cost effective?"  The answer is an ER PPC, a Plasma Cannon with a ton of ammo, and two ER Medium Lasers.  Good news: we can force a PSR effectively now!  Bad news: holy shit does it cost a lot of BV to do that.  We do get a small reprieve in the form of more heat sinks, taking it to 13 doubles and making the heat when firing the conventional weapons easy at +1 when running for the ER PPC + both ER Medium Lasers.  The LAMS should be turned firmly into the "off" position unless you want to suffer heat penalties, and probably so should the Plasma Cannon.  When jumping fire one fewer Medium, or accept that you're going to be toasty.  Now, about that BV: 3286.  No.  F

Stormwolf C: I'm going to save myself a lot of time and just say the BV up front, it's 3261.  The 'Mech is still only 50 tons, it still has heat issues if the LAMS is left on.  I feel like I would be a lot more lenient here if it wasn't paying so damn much for that capability, and also if that capability wasn't one entire hex faster than my darling the Black Lanner.  In order to be worth this much a 'Mech has to be able to do exceptional damage at this speed.  It does not.  It doesn't come close.  F

Stormwolf D: This is the 'Mech that comes the closest by far to living up to the potential promised by its BV.  We have five ER Medium Lasers and an ATM 9, plus a Light TAG.  We also have 12 doubles, meaning that the LAMS is once again ****** up everything and should be kept off at all times you expect to be in gun range.  Without the LAMS, running and firing all lasers is +3.  Adding the ATM takes you up to +9, which is relatively high but is workable since you can maintain a 5/8[13] speed the next turn if necessary to maintain the TMM.  It's not ideal but it's more nuanced than it could be.  The problem is that we're still well over 3000 BV (3122) and I can't countenance taking it at any point, ever.  Pretend I went to the effort of putting a gif of Jurassic Park here with Jeff Goldblum breathlessly talking about the difference between could and should.  F

Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron-Born) T: Now that that's over, back to 'Mechs I actually like.  The Ebon Jaguar is a favorite, and not just because it looks mean as hell (especially now that the upgrade to add hips was successful).  This config has an Ultra AC/5 (love it), an ER PPC (also good), an Improved Heavy Medium Laser, a Streak LRM 10, and a pair of Thunderbolt 5s.  Paired Thunderbolt 5s have been a popular way to make something useful out of what used to be single SRM 2s and through that lens it's useful even if I'm not a huge fan of the weapon in general.  We have enough ammo for all weapons present, and all of the long range guns add up to +3 heat at a run thanks to 13 doubles, but only if the Streak locks.  If the Streak fails to lock it's -1.  If the Streaks lock multiple turns in a row you can drop the Thunderbolts and be back near neutral.  This is pretty much exactly where I want to be in terms of being able to push the envelope while having good fallback options.  Up close the iHML replaces the Thunderbolts once they get into minimum range for +4/+0, respectively.  Good stuff, and intuitive.  Ammo is protected in both side torsos by CASE II, and if there's one thing I wish I could do it would be another ton of Ultra ammo, but that's a very minor thing.  The BV is 2219, which is entirely serviceable for a 'Mech that can put this kind of damage downfield consistently, effeciently, and look cool doing it.  B+

Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron-Born) E: I don't think this is a new config, but it's still a good one in my book.  We have a Large Pulse Laser, a HAG/20, an ER Medium Laser, and an ATM 12.  The ATM 12 is a phenomenal weapon, and there's nothing quite like putting 30+ damage on a single target with a single attack.  There are a lot of 5 point clusters here, and they add up very quickly.  Three tons each of ATM and HAG ammo is enough for both guns without overstaying its welcome. A running alpha is +3 heat, but honestly you probably want to be engaging with this 'Mech from beyond range of the ER Medium for at least a bit, or beyond effective range at least.  There's a lot of accurate long range gun on this 'Mech.  The BV is 2391, and I think it's fair for that, though not exceptional.  I think it's a superior config to the T, and the only downside is the relative infrequency of single bit hits.  A-

Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron-Born) F: This is very nearly perfection in the shape of a 'Mech.  We have two ER PPCs, two ATM 6s with three tons of ammo, and a Targeting Computer.  I normally like bigger launchers instead of two smaller launchers, but this is the exception.  We have 18 doubles here, which means running and firing both ER PPCs and one ATM is heat neutral, while firing both is +4.  Alternating 2x2/2x0 or keeping up a constant barrage of 2x1 is entirely target dependent, and you have enough ATM ammo that you should arguably be bringing one of each ton.  The number of times Standard ammo ends up being a good choice has surprised me.  The Targeting Computer makes the ER PPCs viciously accurate and you have absolutely no issues forcing PSRs at all ranges and circumstances.  One of the most flexible and brutally effective 'Mechs that currently exists.  This is one of the higher BV 'Mechs that I think is genuinely superb at 2681, but it fits together so well that I will go out of my way to take it.  S-

Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron-Born) G: Conversely, I think this config flips just a little too far into being too expensive.  This time we have a HAG/40 with a shitload of ammo (six tons, 18 shots) and an Improved Heavy Large Laser tied to a Targeting Computer.  Don't get me wrong, that's brutal and effective, but it's very expensive.  The heat load is +2 at a run, which is pretty good, but there's no good way to sink it without dropping one of your two very big guns.  BV here is 2849, which is too high for me to credibly consider it to be a top tier contender.  It's still pretty good, though, and you will absolutely wreck someone's face with it that isn't expecting it at all.  B

Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron-Born) X: For a second I looked at the weapons and equipment inventory and had a flashback to the Dire Wolf X.  No such fears here, this is much better unified in purpose.  We have a three ER Medium Pulse Lasers, an ER Small Pulse Laser, a Clan RAC/5, a Targeting Computer, and an Angel ECM.  That's a bunch of very accurate damage, and I approve.  The RAC is the weak link here, I think, but it has enough ammo to keep contributing and it offers long range punch the config might otherwise not have.  There are extra heat sinks here, 16 doubles, which is hilariously oversinked since it can generate a maximum of 29 heat while running against 32 dissipation.  It's holding the design back but not by an extreme amount.  The BV is high but reasonable for something so limited at range at 2435.  It's okay, not a stinker, not one of the greats either.  C+

Turkina T: Please stop putting Protomech ACs on 'Mechs.  This is largely driven by the Turkina's WYSIWYG loadout, but it's not better for it.  We have two ER PPCs, which is good, a pair of Streak LRM 15s, which is heavy but not bad, and then two PAC/8s, which I would rather just not have on the 'Mech.  Heat sinks are enough to fire the ER PPCs at a run, but any Streaks locking is going to trigger heat penalties.  There's not an easy way to drop a weapon to sink, either, except one of the ER PPCs that I'm rather fond of keeping shooting at all times.  The PACs are too short range for me to want much to do with them, and while you can conceivably drop an ER PPC to fire one ER PPC and all other guns at close range the heat efficient nature of the Streaks works against you at that point leaving heat potentially unused.  I'm not a fan of it, and the BV being over 3000 doesn't help (3080).  It's not terrible by any stretch of the word, but I don't like it.  C

Turkina E: This, on the other hand, is hilarious.  A HAG/40 and six Streak SRM 6s makes absolutely no bones about what's happening when you get close.  There are four tons of HAG ammo for 12 shots, and four tons of Streak ammo for 60 total shots split between six launchers.  Two of the Streak ammo tons are in the legs and I would much rather have had them in the arm, but that's relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.  Heat is amusingly consistent: you will not overheat unless you have consequently put someone in your sights into the cold dirt.  Fifteen doubles means that even if all guns have locked and fired you're generating exactly +4 on a run.  To trigger heat penalties you have to have locked with at minimum 10 Streak SRM 6s in the past two turns, and whoever you were looking at is dead.  The BV is high at 3147, but a HAG/40 is capable of semi-reliably forcing a PSR all on its lonesome within 16 hexes, and that keeps it from being a difficult design to use, I think.  B-

Turkina M: I tend to like 'Mechs that are cheap more than 'Mechs that are not.  Behold the exception to that trend.  Here we have over under LB-5Xs and LB-2Xs in the arms, which I don't hate in and of themselves, but it is essentially a very large and unusually advanced Jagermech at that point.  There are two tons of LB-2X ammo (which is too much) and two tons of LB-5X ammo (which is exactly enough).  We also have a pair of ER Large Lasers and LRM 5s, and a Medium Pulse Laser in the center torso.  The LRMs have a single ton of ammo.  With 16 doubles you are capable of overheating but the ability to mix and match whatever guns you feel like makes it largely a non-issue.  For what it's worth, I recommend dropping the LRM 5s first.  For 2495 BV I think this is still pushing a bit too expensive for having a bunch of guns that do effectively nothing to many targets.  Your effective firepower is two ER Larges and then incidental small clusters, and you're paying a lot to do that.  You're very well armored, though, so that trade-off isn't one I expect all players to agree with me.  This is a 'Mech that makes me imagine what could have been with Ultra AC/10s and pulse lasers.  Ah well.  C

Turkina X: Well this is probably about as close to what I was just describing as could be expected.  No Ultra AC/10s, but we do have a pair of LRM 20s with Artemis V and six tons of ammo.  That's excellent.  We also have six Medium Pulse Lasers, also excellent.  The ammo is all protected by CASE II in the arms, too, for maximum protection.  There's an ECM Suite here, and Talons to top it all off.  Seventeen doubles makes a running alpha +4 on the heat scale, which is right about where it should be, especially since you can choose to drop MPLs as necessary to keep it under control.  This is a very good 'Mech, but I think the BV of 3056 is still too high to make it phenomenal.  The Supernova 5 is the only S to be above 3K BV, and so it shall stay for now.  I can't even pretend that this isn't good, though, and it still deserves to be used.  Getting close with a 'Mech this size and speed to use the Talons isn't easy, but you can reasonably use it as a deterrent, too.  No one, truly no one, wants to take a 30 point kick after having this much ordnance delivered directly to their front.  A-

'Mechs by rating:

F: 5
D: 1
C: 7
B: 4
A: 7
S: 3

Cumulative 'Mechs by rating (series):

F: 27
D: 58
C: 109
B: 109
A: 71
S: 11
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Liam's Ghost

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I feel like Best Bear didn't just design the Stormwolf to troll everybody who was expecting him to build a generalist medium omni, but also specifically Scotty as well.

Yes indeed, Best Bear's genius transcends the fourth wall itself!
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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I can't help but feel that the Stormwolf's creation involved copious amounts of LSD.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

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Scotty

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The Stormwolf has the unfortunate distinction of being the first 'Mech that I've looked at where every single version of it got an F.  The Dominator barely avoided this with a D on the 2.
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I can't help but feel that the Stormwolf's creation involved copious amounts of LSD.
Or the Necorsia the Scorpions use.  :crazy:

It's not a great mech.  Too specialized for my tastes, even in a campaign setting.
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wantec

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The Stormwolf has the unfortunate distinction of being the first 'Mech that I've looked at where every single version of it got an F.  The Dominator barely avoided this with a D on the 2.
Just out of curiosity what do you think a Stirmwolf config would need to not get an F?
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Just out of curiosity what do you think a Stirmwolf config would need to not get an F?

That's... tough.  80% of the things that I give the Stormwolf low marks for are decisions made on the base chassis, like the Laser AMS, Reflective armor on something this big/fast, and fixing MASC and Supercharger both to the frame.  If I were building the whole thing over again it'd still use Reflective and have fixed MASC, but the Supercharger and jump jets would be config dependent and the LAMS would be absolutely nowhere.  That would be 20 tons of pod space rather than 15, and would enable using IJJs if necessary (which is the innovation I'm particularly taken with on the modern Jade Falcon Omnis since they have the fixed Partial Wing).

I'd probably go with... Ultra AC/5 and two tons of ammo, plus three MPLs.  That puts you within comfortable overheat if the LAMS engages (+1 at a run, +6 at a jump), contributes enough damage with the MPLs to force PSRs easily, you have engagement at range with the UAC/5, and the BV stays in the low 2500s where it's merely too high rather than catastrophically too high.  That would probably get a C or even a low B depending on how it feels on the table.  At that point it's basically a Reflective Shadow Cat with a lot more armor coverage, which has merit.  Any further discussion on this line is going to have to go to Fan Designs, though.
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I can't agree with you on the Ebon Jag F. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it is a S configuration, but the half ton of armor the base frame desperately needs on the arms limbs would hold my vote to an A.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2022, 02:00:47 by Greatclub »

Scotty

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Two or three points in any given location wouldn't make much of a difference to me.  I've had the opportunity to play the Ebon Jaguar F in a total of four games, and in all four of them it's been simply superb.  For some context, all four games were played in the same format, 6K BV and a maximum of four 'Mechs on each side.  I want to say I ended up facing a total of 14 'Mechs in those four games and the F accounted for nine of them, and very narrowly missed claiming a tenth against a veteran Tomahawk II C in what was basically a solo deathmatch in the middle of the rest of the game.

That's all anecdotal, admittedly, and my fortunes with it could change at any time, but it's just solid in all areas (durability included).
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The Cauldron Born F is basically a faster, slightly less durable Warhammer IIC 4 with a targeting computer.
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Scotty

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For those (literally) counting, we've currently covered 382 record sheets out of the total of 600 for this series.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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For those (literally) counting, we've currently covered 382 record sheets out of the total of 600 for this series.

I didn’t realize how back ended loaded the series was until you said that. Interesting.

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It is only barely front loaded.  There are 292 in the first 12 volumes and 308 in the second 12.  So we're currently about 18 "under PAR" and they'll average a bit more going forward but they've been pretty close so far.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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I shouldn’t math this late.

GuyIncognito

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Oh boy, I just realized: isn't the Amarok in the next volume? That'll be a fun review.

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Oh boy, I just realized: isn't the Amarok in the next volume? That'll be a fun review.

The Amarok was invented, I'm sure, because 5/8[10] was just not exotic enough of a poor TMM breakpoint.  The Recognition Guides demanded innovation.
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I just want Shrapnel to feature the first time the anti-DFA system made an Amarok punch itself in the face during testing.

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One of the things I'm noticing from these reviews is that the RecGuide designs really go high/low BV costs for most of their designs. I think that's an interesting change from the medium BV aim we saw with earlier TROs (2750/3039 to 3060), and follows more of the Jihad through Dark Age era design thought process 3067 to 3150 we see before the Rec Guides came out.
I wonder how much of that is a change from FASA to Fan Pro to Catalyst design ideas, and how much of it is the fluff high/low capacity of Dark Age combat, where a single IS company might be in the 30K range rather than the 10 to 20K range of the Succession War or Clan Invasion era.

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I wonder how much of that is a change from FASA to Fan Pro to Catalyst design ideas, and how much of it is the fluff high/low capacity of Dark Age combat, where a single IS company might be in the 30K range rather than the 10 to 20K range of the Succession War or Clan Invasion era.

Most of it can be directly laid at the feet of the newer technologies being showcased in the RGs. Nearly every new armor type is over-BV'd, while the in-universe proliferation of the low-risk and low-weight Supercharger means that it's a no brainer to add it to many designs. Combine that with the growth of Spheroid ClanTech usage, and you've got a perfect storm for BV bloat.

So to more directly answer the question: it's the inevitable result of the technological growth in-universe.
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TheoLehman

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I just want Shrapnel to feature the first time the anti-DFA system made an Amarok punch itself in the face during testing.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/general-discussion/recognition-guide-ilclan-discussion-part-3-quads-or-nah/msg1731051/#msg1731051

I'm tempted to expand this and submit it, but I might not have time.

MarauderD

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The Amarok was invented, I'm sure, because 5/8[10] was just not exotic enough of a poor TMM breakpoint.  The Recognition Guides demanded innovation.

The next Volume also features the Crusader (I for one love the new artwork).  It is a bit of a puzzle, because right after the rec guide came out, Shrapnel featured an even better, Clan-Tech Crusader a lot like their Clan-Tech Zeus.

wantec

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One of the things I'm noticing from these reviews is that the RecGuide designs really go high/low BV costs for most of their designs. I think that's an interesting change from the medium BV aim we saw with earlier TROs (2750/3039 to 3060), and follows more of the Jihad through Dark Age era design thought process 3067 to 3150 we see before the Rec Guides came out.
I wonder how much of that is a change from FASA to Fan Pro to Catalyst design ideas, and how much of it is the fluff high/low capacity of Dark Age combat, where a single IS company might be in the 30K range rather than the 10 to 20K range of the Succession War or Clan Invasion era.
For the existing Omnis, there's also the factor of trying to do something new & different for the chassis. That almost forces you out to either extreme, going for something really powerful for a chassis that didn't have many strong configs, or weapons & equipment not used before which may lower the BV a bunch.
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Aotrs Commander

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A couple of questions.

Why, exactly, are Protomech ACs bad?

I know, for example, why MG arrays are known as being a force-divider, rather than multiplier); I know the standard ACs, especially the 2 and 5, are not great because they have such poor damage to weight ratios, and the Mag Shot is basically inferior to the AP Gauss and the latter is a bit of niche, as I understand it, in having basically the longest range for a half-ton wapons...

Is the ProtoAC just too low damage for what it is again, or is there something else?



Secondly, if BV was not a consideration (or "fixed"), would stuff like the Stormwolf be... "better" for want of a word?

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A couple of questions.

Why, exactly, are Protomech ACs bad?

I know, for example, why MG arrays are known as being a force-divider, rather than multiplier); I know the standard ACs, especially the 2 and 5, are not great because they have such poor damage to weight ratios, and the Mag Shot is basically inferior to the AP Gauss and the latter is a bit of niche, as I understand it, in having basically the longest range for a half-ton wapons...

Is the ProtoAC just too low damage for what it is again, or is there something else?



Secondly, if BV was not a consideration (or "fixed"), would stuff like the Stormwolf be... "better" for want of a word?

I dislike Protomech ACs because of the combination of their range, damage, and ammo inefficiency.

A PAC/8 has range brackets 3/7/10, does 8 damage for 2 heat, and gets 10 shots per ton.   A PAC/4 has range brackets 5/10/15, does 8 damage for 1 heat, and gets 20 shots per ton.  I can't remember PAC/2s off the top of my head but it's an AC/2 of a different flavor, I do not respect it.

The PAC that does enough damage has an abysmal range, the PAC that has worthwhile range does abysmal damage, and the one that splits the difference doesn't so anything particularly well.  In most cases I'd rather take a medium laser of some kind, heatsinks to match, and then go underweight for the rest.

I make a lot of noise about UAC/5s, which suffer from the same tonnage inefficiency, but it's important to be a good weapon to have a decent combination of range and damage to fill that tonnage.  PACs just... don't do that.

I don't mind them on actual protomechs, but on full BattleMechs they're a waste.
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