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Author Topic: So the celestial series... how to and why?  (Read 16432 times)

Wrangler

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #240 on: 26 September 2019, 07:01:03 »
Except, Wrangler that IIRC, non-small cockpit Celestials and 'frail' adapted Demon series were used in the defense of Terra . . . even if we saw no RS for those.
I was under the impression that small cockpits weren't restricted to just Manei Domini, just darn hard to drive.

I will always be eternally grateful for every day that they don't. You've met the fanbase we're all a part of. Can you imagine the nightmarish catastrophe it would be if this public were allowed access to such information to peruse, analyze, nitpick, and inevitably use as a club tho beat CGL into a vaguely horse-shaped stain on the ground?
I am always grateful that CGL staff and Loren Coleman saved Battletech from ash heaps and keeps us going.

That said, we can disagree with decisions made.  I like having scarcity variants available per design, Worktroll's fan made modified House books were fantastic since it balanced things. 

I won't want CGL driven insane, i certainly don't want them getting Fortress Mentality trying Battletech and CGL itself up and running.

However, we are still talking about Celestial OmniMechs.   
I don't think hard-copy of the Celestials will come up, if Devlin Stone will have anything to say about it since his return.

It's hard say if Levin walked away letting Stone do what he wants. Shattered Fortress (source book) didn't give impression of what Exarch was doing.
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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #241 on: 26 September 2019, 07:28:23 »
you can't make that assumption. they may be more or less common - their RAT frequency has no bearing on their commonness. sometimes very common units won't even appear on faction RATs

Like what ones? I’m curious as I’ve been finding that RATs solid. Most of my time was spent looking at the ones for 3039 and 3052. Glancing at 3052, every military except DCMS and ComGuards run all 3 bug mechs in noticeable numbers. If the RAT is believed, then the bug mechs comprise 22-44% of the light mechs in those armies. DC gets a pass as they bulk construct Panthers. ComStar is running SLDF mechs so that make sense.

Sartris

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #242 on: 26 September 2019, 07:40:55 »
Sorry it’s been a while since I’ve done any of that work and I don’t think I saved the data. It’s all rather moot as the official stance by the people who make the RATs have taken a decade long position that what you think you’re seeing isn’t the case

They should put a disclaimer in that says Any resemblance to armies real or fictional is coincidental

Sir Chaos

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #243 on: 26 September 2019, 08:30:33 »
Exactly.  Which is why I wouldn't expect the Society to do very well against the Word.

I think the Society might have out-nastied the Word. They were better at science, more inventive, and just as ruthless.
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grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #244 on: 26 September 2019, 10:27:09 »
I was under the impression that small cockpits weren't restricted to just Manei Domini, just darn hard to drive.
Correct, but the +1 PSR seems to scare people away, the same way I have a near pathological aversion to Ultra autocannons.  Yet I'll use MASC, Superchargers, and PPC capacitors...

But I wouldn't even go so far as to say "damn hard."  A +1 modifier to a 2d6 roll works out to be about a 10% penalty.  Roughly.  Things are just tight enough that you can't get comfortable.  Buttons and switches may be too close together.  There might be more reliance on MFDs in place of dedicated panels.  So you map screen, damage screen and stores screen are all on the same MFD and you have to keep swapping back and forth.

I would compare it to a story a tall fighter pilot told me once.  There were switches on the left side of his cockpit that most people hit with their left hand, but he had to use his right. His forearm was too long and if he reached for the switches, his elbow would bump something, rear bulkhead, seat frame, I don't recall.

And for some mechs, it's not even that big a penalty. Lights that tend not to survive taking 20+ damage per turn don't really need to worry about that +1 PSR. Arrow IV platforms aren't expected to take much damage. Quads get a free -1 PSR, so null out that penalty and take the extra ton.
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Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #245 on: 26 September 2019, 11:04:01 »
From what I remember of the comments, it was not that it was done to make it easier to drive- it was that they were 'lesser' mechs b/c of no small cockpit since they were destined for the 'frails.'
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dgorsman

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #246 on: 26 September 2019, 11:10:06 »
I think the "lesser-ness" was having a conventional small cockpit rather than a VDNI one.  No real effects or difference for game play.
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Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #247 on: 26 September 2019, 11:41:05 »
I think the "lesser-ness" was having a conventional small cockpit rather than a VDNI one.  No real effects or difference for game play.

Other than a +1 for the small cockpit.  VDNI and bVDNI is in part meant to mitigate the penalties of a small cockpit, which, at least in my mind, was primarily designed so that a snub nose or light PPC could be shoved in the head since the small cockpit frees up a slot.  Ultimate zombie mechs and all that business.

grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #248 on: 26 September 2019, 11:53:51 »
Other than a +1 for the small cockpit.  VDNI and bVDNI is in part meant to mitigate the penalties of a small cockpit, which, at least in my mind, was primarily designed so that a snub nose or light PPC could be shoved in the head since the small cockpit frees up a slot.  Ultimate zombie mechs and all that business.
There is something to be said for a mech that barfs lightening bolts....

From what I remember of the comments, it was not that it was done to make it easier to drive- it was that they were 'lesser' mechs b/c of no small cockpit since they were destined for the 'frails.'

Not sure which mechs you mean by "easier to drive."

Idle question:  Other than the Celestials, did WoB Militia regularly use any other mechs with Small Cockpit?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Maelwys

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #249 on: 26 September 2019, 12:19:33 »
Commando, Eidolon, Flashman, Guillotine variants, a Gurkha variant (the one that FINALLY gets TSM), King Crab variant, Lancelots, their Ostroc and Panther variants, a variant of each of the White and Blue flames, a couple of the Vanquishers, all of their LAMs, and the Raptor IIs.

That I can think of off hand.

Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #250 on: 26 September 2019, 12:23:51 »
Their omnifighters do.  I know they had a few other omnimechs at their disposal as well, the Perseus being one. Their super-heavies may have mounted a small cockpit as well, but I am not sure.

If I recall, the Fed Suns were the first to develop it, and the Lyrans implemented it as well.  Generally the WoB has access to any Lyran tech since they were one of the main enemies, so any Lyran units that have the small cockpit the WoB most likely can have access to those as well.

Maelwys

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #251 on: 26 September 2019, 12:28:21 »
The Spectrals have small cockpits, the Perseus doesn't (having been designed well before the small cockpit was standard tech. The superheavies mount Super heavy cockpits, IIRC.

Also a bunch of their Uniques have small cockpits as well, IIRC.
« Last Edit: 26 September 2019, 12:42:42 by Maelwys »

grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #252 on: 26 September 2019, 13:32:24 »
Commando, Eidolon, Flashman, Guillotine variants, a Gurkha variant (the one that FINALLY gets TSM), King Crab variant, Lancelots, their Ostroc and Panther variants, a variant of each of the White and Blue flames, a couple of the Vanquishers, all of their LAMs, and the Raptor IIs.

That I can think of off hand.
So there is a fair selection going on here.  I forgot about the LAMs and the Raptor IIs.  LAMs only showed up in the defense of Earth right?  Weren't the MD basically out of the picture by then?  The Regulans just used buckets and buckets of sunsine until everyone had a nice, even tan. 

According to Jihad Secrets, there were never reports of the MD using Raptor IIs, which is a bit odd because that kind of sneaky stuff is kind of up their alley.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #253 on: 26 September 2019, 13:48:04 »
The Raptor II isn't designed for combat.  That was probably the issue.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #254 on: 26 September 2019, 13:52:06 »
I think the Society might have out-nastied the Word. They were better at science, more inventive, and just as ruthless.

They were mad scientists playing at being a military.  They were good at coming up with nasty toys, but not so good at using them efficiently or at keeping secrets.  The only reason they lasted as long as they did was because the Clans couldn't conceive of one of the other castes trying to turn on the Warriors.
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Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #255 on: 26 September 2019, 14:08:08 »
They were mad scientists playing at being a military.  They were good at coming up with nasty toys, but not so good at using them efficiently or at keeping secrets.  The only reason they lasted as long as they did was because the Clans couldn't conceive of one of the other castes trying to turn on the Warriors.

I figured this was the case as well.  Engineers can make fun, nasty toys to play war with, but they can't necessarily use them efficiently.  The WoB had a specific force dedicated to efficiently and effectively using all the nasty stuff that their research and tech department developed.  Not to mention more experience with espionage, sabotage, assassinations, and all the other methods of ending their enemies from experience in Comstar. 

Greatclub

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #256 on: 26 September 2019, 15:31:08 »
And for some mechs, it's not even that big a penalty. Lights that tend not to survive taking 20+ damage per turn don't really need to worry about that +1 PSR. Arrow IV platforms aren't expected to take much damage. Quads get a free -1 PSR, so null out that penalty and take the extra ton.

Small cockpits mean that even good pilots have to slow to walking in the city. It isn't a small consideration in a mech that can and needs to move fast.

Sir Chaos

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #257 on: 26 September 2019, 15:55:12 »
They were mad scientists playing at being a military.  They were good at coming up with nasty toys, but not so good at using them efficiently or at keeping secrets.  The only reason they lasted as long as they did was because the Clans couldn't conceive of one of the other castes trying to turn on the Warriors.

I wasn´t thinking about straight-up military nastiness - unless you count nuclear weapons and nerve gas. I was thinking bioweapons, computer viruses and the like. Like a suite of malware programs that specifically targets MD equipment, but then lies dormant and can be triggered remotely to fry the hardware? Heck, I can even see them giving the Inner Sphere (and certainly the IS-based clans) the trigger once the Word double-crosses the Society.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #258 on: 26 September 2019, 16:02:42 »
The Word practiced cybersecurity against every intelligence agency in the Inner Sphere.

The Society practiced cybersecurity against the sort of people who call tech support because they can't find the "any" key on their keyboard.

I think the Society could try coming up with something like that, but actually pulling it off without getting caught was probably beyond them.
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grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #259 on: 26 September 2019, 16:51:04 »
Small cockpits mean that even good pilots have to slow to walking in the city. It isn't a small consideration in a mech that can and needs to move fast.
How is someone with a 4 piloting skill any different from a 3+1?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Greatclub

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #260 on: 26 September 2019, 17:05:37 »
How is someone with a 4 piloting skill any different from a 3+1?

It isn't. 3, however, is different than 3+1. I'd like to get the pilot I'm paying for.

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #261 on: 27 September 2019, 08:52:50 »
I wasn´t thinking about straight-up military nastiness - unless you count nuclear weapons and nerve gas. I was thinking bioweapons, computer viruses and the like. Like a suite of malware programs that specifically targets MD equipment, but then lies dormant and can be triggered remotely to fry the hardware? Heck, I can even see them giving the Inner Sphere (and certainly the IS-based clans) the trigger once the Word double-crosses the Society.

Like MD-specific iNarc Haywire pods? RISC Viral Jammers?
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grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #262 on: 27 September 2019, 11:56:10 »
It isn't. 3, however, is different than 3+1. I'd like to get the pilot I'm paying for.
What if Small Cockpit + VDNI + one more heat sink lets you take your PPC boat from a 3-2-3 salvo pattern to a 3-3-2-3 pattern? Or maybe you only need one more ton to squeeze in a targeting computer.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #263 on: 05 October 2019, 23:15:15 »
Okay, threw a sort-of veteran choir against a veteran battalion of Lyran regulars- Lyrans had about 10k more BV . . .

Did not play it all the way out, but I oopsed a bit on the TSM- was just too hard to try to regulate it, it maybe more of a 'strategic' feature than a tactical for most loadouts.  While the Shadow troops lost, they managed to kill a Devastator, Black Hawk KU, Grand Titan (woo, ammo TAC, lol), Shadow Hawk IIC w/PCs, Thanatos 4S, LB-20X Thanatos and I think 1 more heavy.  Managed to cripple a Ottscout, Hollander, Ostol, Phoenix Hawk 7S, and Stinger so they were either in forced withdraw or KO'd from falling.  Still in the fight but badly torn up were a Phoenix Hawk 3S, Warhammer 7S, Valkyrie, Shadow Hawk C, and another medium.

The above were the results before I called it where the Archangel and IJJ/ERML Preta were all that remained . . . so five mechs, 6 BA and a vehicle to put a battalion to a bit better than 50% strength.
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OpacusVenatori

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #264 on: 06 October 2019, 00:26:34 »
Did not play it all the way out, but I oopsed a bit on the TSM- was just too hard to try to regulate it, it maybe more of a 'strategic' feature than a tactical for most loadouts. 

Which variants of the celestial did you deploy?
The seraph needed a variant with multiple types of lasers to help it manage the heat to maintain active the TSM. In Alpha Strike it's more easy to use. In fact, of all its variants, I think that the seraph invictus is the best of it's kind.
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Colt Ward

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #265 on: 06 October 2019, 00:47:54 »
Comminus and Caelestis- I wanted to see how MRMs worked with the C3i.

To be fair, part of its problem was that Shadow Hawk IIC got close enough to be hitting regularly with the double plasma cannons during a turn I was trying to activate the TSM.  I did not pay attention to which Shadow Hawk IIC it was- pretty sure it got close to maxing the 15 external heat, and I think I had a DHS crit on the arm the same turn so my +9 went to +11 and then another 13-15 heat from the dual Plasma Cannons.

Now it WAS fun to see the MRM rack hit with a high roll, I think 35+ missiles which was why the Ostol & a Thanatos got hurt.
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Greatclub

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #266 on: 06 October 2019, 01:08:42 »
Some mechs have TSM so they can move fast an plummel things. A relitive few have it so they aren't affected by heat as much. Most Seraph seems to belong in the second group to me.


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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #268 on: 06 October 2019, 11:42:16 »
Yeah, the Seraph is pretty clearly in the second category. It's not a mech that tries to overheat and then go nuts. It's one where if it happens to overheat it gains a nice bonus(but it's not a primary strategy), and you send it after plasma/inferno units. Use the heat, I dare you.
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grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #269 on: 07 October 2019, 11:15:18 »
Okay, threw a sort-of veteran choir against a veteran battalion of Lyran regulars- Lyrans had about 10k more BV . . .

Did not play it all the way out, but I oopsed a bit on the TSM- was just too hard to try to regulate it, it maybe more of a 'strategic' feature than a tactical for most loadouts.  While the Shadow troops lost, they managed to kill a Devastator, Black Hawk KU, Grand Titan (woo, ammo TAC, lol), Shadow Hawk IIC w/PCs, Thanatos 4S, LB-20X Thanatos and I think 1 more heavy.  Managed to cripple a Ottscout, Hollander, Ostol, Phoenix Hawk 7S, and Stinger so they were either in forced withdraw or KO'd from falling.  Still in the fight but badly torn up were a Phoenix Hawk 3S, Warhammer 7S, Valkyrie, Shadow Hawk C, and another medium.

The above were the results before I called it where the Archangel and IJJ/ERML Preta were all that remained . . . so five mechs, 6 BA and a vehicle to put a battalion to a bit better than 50% strength.
Between their Veteran or better gun skills, VDNI, C3i, a bit of skill by the player, and they rarely miss. Yeah, another mech mech might have 1/3 heavier throw-weight, but if the conventional mech has a hit rate of 50% and the MD his hitting 75% of the time, the MD is dealing more damage per turn.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.