What is the weakest or most unbelievable aspect of the BT Universe?

[Weirdo]

Though Luthien becomes a lot more believable when you find out the entomology of California.

There's twenty-ton bugs in California?!?

[five_corparty]

There's twenty-ton bugs in California?!?

Sounds like SOMEONE's never seen "Them!" 

[Jellico]

Okay.  Let's try Etymology.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

A minor thing but something I've wondered about for about as long as I've been into Battletech: how does a mech punch another mech without damage its own hands?

[SteelRaven]

A minor thing but something I've wondered about for about as long as I've been into Battletech: how does a mech punch another mech without damage its own hands?

Yeah, that should have been the #1 benefit to melee weapons. You can argue allot of mechs have that Battle Fist you can argue is design to take damage (like the Awesome's simple sturdy digits) but apparently all hand actuators are apparently built to be used as battery rams.   

[Caedis Animus]

Yeah, that should have been the #1 benefit to melee weapons. You can argue allot of mechs have that Battle Fist you can argue is design to take damage (like the Awesome's simple sturdy digits) but apparently all hand actuators are apparently built to be used as battery rams.

I honestly always figured that, due to the ablative nature of battletech armor, they were actually more grabbing and ripping off armor when there was a significant difference in mass. Especially with the mechs that had more 'industrial claw' looking hands, a'la the Awesome.

Like, a Commando meleeing an Atlas is going to go for armor raking, going for what it can get and trying to rip looser plates off; The Atlas is just going to deck the Commando. It'd all be dependent on mech mass.

[CJC070]

A minor thing but something I've wondered about for about as long as I've been into Battletech: how does a mech punch another mech without damage its own hands?

Who says he was punching. Some in my group always joked it was a judo chop which was one of the reasons you couldn’t punch and shoot with the same arm.

[TigerShark]

A minor thing but something I've wondered about for about as long as I've been into Battletech: how does a mech punch another mech without damage its own hands?

Yeah. Feels like the attacker should take damage for this. Like a % of damage inflicted or something, unless there's a quirk which shows that part of its body is hardened. Charging takes self damage -- Why not kicks? It's a bit like saying, "if I run my car into yours while stationary, only the car I run into takes damage -- Not mine."

[Charistoph]

Who says he was punching. Some in my group always joked it was a judo chop which was one of the reasons you couldn’t punch and shoot with the same arm.

Well, only if you're unskilled in the "Fist Fire" maneuver.

[Weirdo]

Why are people assuming that mech hands (and feet for that matter) aren't hardened specifically to handle punching?

[Jal Phoenix]

Generally when humans fight, the attacker's fists and feet take negligible damage compared to the defender's face. With skilled fighters, at least. I imagine that BattleMechs are constructed and piloted with similar qualities in mind. That, or we can just call it simplified for game play. Do we really want yet another thing to keep track of?

[Caedis Animus]

Generally when humans fight, the attacker's fists and feet take negligible damage compared to the defender's face. With skilled fighters, at least. I imagine that BattleMechs are constructed and piloted with similar qualities in mind. That, or we can just call it simplified for game play. Do we really want yet another thing to keep track of?

I'm sure someone out there would say yes.

[SteelRaven]

It's a small thing rarely comes up because two robots punching each other is awesome regardless and no more unbelievable than giant robot war machines.

It only bothers me when someone points out that a mech having fist is the optimized weapon for melee so kung Fu grip beats axes, swords, vibroblades, ect.

I know it's because melee weapons happen to be a after thought but it's something that comes up to often when someone makes a post regarding the Hatchetman and such. Someone has to say 'punching is better'

[BATTLEMASTER]

Yeah. Feels like the attacker should take damage for this. Like a % of damage inflicted or something, unless there's a quirk which shows that part of its body is hardened. Charging takes self damage -- Why not kicks? It's a bit like saying, "if I run my car into yours while stationary, only the car I run into takes damage -- Not mine."

It depends on what car your driving - is it armored?   

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Generally when humans fight, the attacker's fists and feet take negligible damage compared to the defender's face. With skilled fighters, at least. I imagine that BattleMechs are constructed and piloted with similar qualities in mind. That, or we can just call it simplified for game play. Do we really want yet another thing to keep track of?

Generally when humans fight, they aim for soft parts on their opponent's body instead of hard bony parts.  And often they will wear gloves or wraps over their hands to protect themselves: boxers wear boxing gloves to protect their hands, not to protect their opponent's face.

[TigerShark]

Generally when humans fight, the attacker's fists and feet take negligible damage compared to the defender's face. With skilled fighters, at least. I imagine that BattleMechs are constructed and piloted with similar qualities in mind. That, or we can just call it simplified for game play. Do we really want yet another thing to keep track of?

Why keep damage for DFA and Charging then?

[Jal Phoenix]

Why keep damage for DFA and Charging then?

False equivalency. Keeping an existing game mechanic is not the same as adding in a new one.

Besides, both of those activities are far more likely to cause damage to the attacker in a human fight than simple punches and kicks, so there's a slight basis in logic.

[TigerShark]

False equivalency. Keeping an existing game mechanic is not the same as adding in a new one.

Besides, both of those activities are far more likely to cause damage to the attacker in a human fight than simple punches and kicks, so there's a slight basis in logic.

The thread is about "things that don't make sense in the BT universe." Their existence as a current game mechanic is irrelevant to anything being discussed. I'm talking about physicals causing damage to the attacker in one scenario, but not the other. I'd say that doesn't make sense, IMO.

[SteelRaven]

To be fair, charging and DFA's use the momentum/mass of the entire mech to collide wit with other mech. Human equivalent may be closer to someone in full kit punching someone vs someone in full kit doing a body slam. 

[BATTLEMASTER]

To be fair, charging and DFA's use the momentum/mass of the entire mech to collide wit with other mech. Human equivalent may be closer to someone in full kit punching someone vs someone in full kit doing a body slam.

Hmmm this reminds me of a show that aired on the History Channel a couple years ago called Knight Fight where there were contestants in medieval reproduction armor basically engaging in gladiatorial combat.  Some combatants would charge across the arena and slam another competitor into the wall.  I'd say there's a right way and a wrong way to do that, the wrong way resulting in injury to the person charging.

So maybe theoretically it's possible for a unit to charge another and not suffer damage?

[TheoLehman]

Why keep damage for DFA and Charging then?

If I jump multiple times my own height and land on someone, we're both gonna be feeling pretty bad about it.

[Natasha Kerensky]

If the way-back machine would let someone rewrite BT rules back in the 80s, physical combat should probably result in internal damage (internal structure and crit rolls), rather than armor damage.  It’s not very believable that armor that can withstand explosive warheads and kinetic impacts with velocities measured in hundreds to thousands of kph would take much damage at all from robotic parts moving at tens to a hundred-plus kph.  But it is believable that such collisions would kick weapons/ammo feeds/gyros/magnetic fields out of alignment, sever electrical/hydraulic/coolant connections, and crack structural joiners/computer boards without penetrating any armor.  Rules-wise, that would also have granted advantages to physical combat (potentially quick if risky mission kills) that ranged weapons don’t enjoy (slow, grinding, ablative destruction).  Would have made for some interesting/varied tactics/designs.

But obviously water under the bridge now...

[Charistoph]

Hmm, maybe if such strikes had a Critical Chance Role and if the location rolled did not manage to "hit" a component, damage to the structure occurred?

But that's Fan Design territory.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Hmm, maybe if such strikes had a Critical Chance Role and if the location rolled did not manage to "hit" a component, damage to the structure occurred?

But that's Fan Design territory.

I’m not offering specific rules and don’t want my posts exiled to the fan board by the mods.  I’m just saying that it’s more realistic, and is probably more interesting game-wise, if physical combat inflicted internal, rather than armor, damage.  Whether that would be internal structure damage or critical hits or both and how they would be rolled is up to someone else.

[Jal Phoenix]

If BattleTech armor behaved like armor instead of hit points, we'd have a whole new game.

[Charistoph]

I’m not offering specific rules and don’t want my posts exiled to the fan board by the mods.  I’m just saying that it’s more realistic, and is probably more interesting game-wise, if physical combat inflicted internal, rather than armor, damage.  Whether that would be internal structure damage or critical hits or both and how they would be rolled is up to someone else.

I was just more proposing a direction to look at, and then acknowledging that any more discussion on the topic should be diverted to the appropriate section of the forum.

As it is, Armor of the target should definitely be affected, unless one was talking about some 'Mech-Fu in which a pilot could target weak points that bypassed armor all together (that would make for an interesting SPA, though).  Even in a regular martial arts fight, bruising is more common than broken bones.  Armor damage would reflect that bruising component while structure damage would represent broken bones or damaged organs outside of muscle and skin damage.

[Weirdo]

Let's be clear: Nobody has crossed the line, but you're all getting REALLY close to it.

++mod notice++

You're all done with this tangent. Move to a new one now, or go down to Fan Rules.

[Daryk]

Fan Rules forum FTW! 

[victor_shaw]

So the list of weak or unbelievable aspect of the BT Universe begins.
1. the fact that the Innersphere powers can fully retool from 3025 tech to 2750 tech in less then 20 years but can seem to mass produce clantech in over a hundred years.
2. the fact that the FWL managed to stay under martial law for over a hundred years and the best you got was one uprising.
3. the fact that both Jerome and Conrad thought that creating a hyper religious tech worshiping cult was a good idea. 
4. that fact that with the size and population of the Innersphere during the Starleague, that all the people that knew how to run it would be killed off without training others.
5. the fact that the Successor States would allow ComStar to continue to run their internal HPG networks after they committed an armed takeover of Terra/Earth.
6. the fact that everyone keeps building Battlemech even after they have been proven to be a cost sink vs conventional weapons.
7. the fact that the Successor States some how forgot how to build warships when they were invented in 2300.

[pokefan548]

So the list of weak or unbelievable aspect of the BT Universe begins.
1. the fact that the Innersphere powers can fully retool from 3025 tech to 2750 tech in less then 20 years but can seem to mass produce clantech in over a hundred years.

Actually, there's a fair amount of Clantech production by Late Dark Ages and ilClan. In fact, dare I say the distinction between Inner Sphere and Clan tech is nearly lost in ilClan, considering how many designs are mixed-tech now.

4. that fact that with the size and population of the Innersphere during the Starleague, that all the people that knew how to run it would be killed off without training others.

Not all of them were. Theoretically, the Star League's infrastructure could have been restored... except that most of the surviving Star League administrators had gone to work for the great houses during and immediately after the Amaris Civil War. Turns out, when your paychecks stop clearing on time because your home office is a crater, one starts interviewing at new places; especially when those places are offering mighty lucrative deals. Once time came to potentially hire them back, they would have been comfortably settled into an office run by a much more stable employer. Said employers were already planning on abandoning the Star League and had begun making moves to sabotage their neighbors and carve out as much territory as possible once the pretext dropped, so they weren't really eager to help put the League Back together.
tl;dr: not everyone who could run the Star League died, but most were either too depressed to try and/or had been hired up by the Successor States for the much more profitable venture of stealing from Capellans.

7. the fact that the Successor States some how forgot how to build warships when they were invented in 2300.

Many tried, and many WarShip programs actually got pretty far. ComStar had to be extra diligent about creating "accidents" within WarShip programs.