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Author Topic: Advantages of light 'Mechs  (Read 21467 times)

Adastra

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #360 on: 19 October 2020, 17:27:35 »
If a random, unsupported rifle platoon tries tackling a mech by itself, the worst possible damage to the mech is usually going to be the risk of getting organic matter lodged in its foot actuators.  Unlike D&D, in Battletech there are no bands of rifle infantry randomly roving the countryside, blindly launching suicidal attacks against any mech they come across when they have no support or any real hope of actually harming the thing.

Against a wandering savannah master they have pretty good odds though, funny enough. Best case the hover can take out one man per turn, while the PBI can dish out pretty notable damage (don’t infantry deal damage in 2-point clusters? That’s pretty good motive hit and crit seeking). Even against a swarm of hovers, 28 guys can probably survive at least long enough to call in a response force, or better yet, artillery.

The equivalent to “wandering monsters” in a battletech context would be more like picket forces and opposing recon elements. Infantry platoons are nice to dot the landscape with to ensure you have something of a cohesive line. They do well at slowing down and blunting assaults long enough to mobilize a response force, or throw out blankets of FASCAM and hate.
« Last Edit: 19 October 2020, 18:13:23 by Adastra »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #361 on: 19 October 2020, 18:36:08 »
The issue with a wandering Savannah Master is actually hitting it.  A SM wouldn't stick around to fight, and even at cruising speed it's not an easy target.

There are already rules for units starting with preexisting damage as a result of ongoing conflict.  If they're not in a running battle with no time to rotate out for repairs, there's no reason for them to have damage- the idea that there are just tons of random infantry platoons floating around ambushing every hostile force that sets foot onto a world simply isn't born out in-universe.
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Adastra

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #362 on: 19 October 2020, 18:42:01 »
The issue with a wandering Savannah Master is actually hitting it.  A SM wouldn't stick around to fight, and even at cruising speed it's not an easy target.

There are already rules for units starting with preexisting damage as a result of ongoing conflict.  If they're not in a running battle with no time to rotate out for repairs, there's no reason for them to have damage- the idea that there are just tons of random infantry platoons floating around ambushing every hostile force that sets foot onto a world simply isn't born out in-universe.

The problem is that if the SM just leaves the infantry alone, those infantry can continue reporting its movements and position, especially if the PBI have chosen a good vantage point with long sightlines like any smart person would. VTOLs, artillery, or opposing hovers will then be vectored in to intercept. VTOLs especially will stomp all over SMs, being capable of higher speeds/TMMs and generally carrying equivalent or greater firepower, and their lesser endurance is irrelevant for the intercept role.

By contrast, if you kill the PBI quickly, they may be able to report in the contact, but by the time anyone arrives you can be gone.

There's another respect where hovers have a disadvantage. If hovercraft are anything like the real deal (which they are explicitly supposed to be), they will be quite loud and throw up lots of dust when there's dust to be had. They also tend to be very big for their weight compared to wheeled or tracked vehicles. That means people will see and hear them coming well before they actually arrive, and they can be incredibly easy to track.
« Last Edit: 19 October 2020, 18:53:44 by Adastra »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #363 on: 19 October 2020, 19:10:30 »
Savannah Masters are scouts and harrasser units.  They are not designd to kill infantry.  In fact, the only hover vehicle less-designed to kill infantry is the Regulator.  And frankly, I don't even know why hovercraft are even being discussed since the topic of the thread is light mechs.  A Savannah Master's response to an infantry ambush should not be trying to shoot it out with them, it should be to disengage (which unless they do something to block its movements somehow it should accomplish automatically) and report the infantry's position to allied forces so they can avoid it or send something to squash it.
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Adastra

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #364 on: 19 October 2020, 20:11:08 »
Savannah Masters are scouts and harrasser units.  They are not designd to kill infantry.  In fact, the only hover vehicle less-designed to kill infantry is the Regulator.  And frankly, I don't even know why hovercraft are even being discussed since the topic of the thread is light mechs.  A Savannah Master's response to an infantry ambush should not be trying to shoot it out with them, it should be to disengage (which unless they do something to block its movements somehow it should accomplish automatically) and report the infantry's position to allied forces so they can avoid it or send something to squash it.

I bring it up because hovercraft are one of the primary competitors to light mechs on the ground.  The thread is about the advantages of lights. So I'm comparing the two, offering potential advantages of one over the other.

I was also discussing it specifically in the context of rear-area raiding, stuff behind enemy lines. So "disengage and report in" isn't really viable in that scenario. You need to have enough firepower to push through rear-area defenses like PBI in order to get at the really soft targets. If you just leave them alone the enemy is getting a constant play-by-play of where you're going, such that by the time you get there they're going to be ready. Plus, killing random PBI is in itself a useful goal of raiding. You hurt morale, lead the enemy on wild goose chases, and poke out the enemy's eyes.

There are also roles like recon-in-force, where you're trying to provoke a reaction from the enemy, to feel out their numbers and concentration, while keeping them off-balance and potentially sniffing out weak spots that can be exploited. In those scenarios, running away without ever making contact with the enemy also means not doing your job.
« Last Edit: 19 October 2020, 20:14:26 by Adastra »

Wolf72

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #365 on: 19 October 2020, 20:33:54 »
(wished alt MGs were retconned to be available in most eras, ... and make HMG able to shoot up to 3 hexes, give reg a 4 hex range if needed --- all a different topic)

LMG or P SL for anti infantry work.  Need the range for light mechs, gah wait ...P SL is only 3 hexes (clan gets 6).  Make that an XP SL.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #366 on: 19 October 2020, 20:43:22 »
I bring it up because hovercraft are one of the primary competitors to light mechs on the ground.  The thread is about the advantages of lights. So I'm comparing the two, offering potential advantages of one over the other.

I was also discussing it specifically in the context of rear-area raiding, stuff behind enemy lines. So "disengage and report in" isn't really viable in that scenario. You need to have enough firepower to push through rear-area defenses like PBI in order to get at the really soft targets. If you just leave them alone the enemy is getting a constant play-by-play of where you're going, such that by the time you get there they're going to be ready. Plus, killing random PBI is in itself a useful goal of raiding. You hurt morale, lead the enemy on wild goose chases, and poke out the enemy's eyes.

There are also roles like recon-in-force, where you're trying to provoke a reaction from the enemy, to feel out their numbers and concentration, while keeping them off-balance and potentially sniffing out weak spots that can be exploited. In those scenarios, running away without ever making contact with the enemy also means not doing your job.

Except that the discussion was about using light mechs as recon and you randomly brought up a Savannah Master fighting infantry.
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Adastra

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #367 on: 19 October 2020, 21:21:35 »
Except that the discussion was about using light mechs as recon and you randomly brought up a Savannah Master fighting infantry.

No? Massey talked about "wandering monsters", using infantry as an example. Then, you argued that random infantry going up against a mech was suicide. Then I pointed out that random infantry can go up against Savannah Masters, and many other recon hovers, which is a point in favor of light mechs. An advantage of light mechs.

« Last Edit: 19 October 2020, 21:24:46 by Adastra »

massey

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #368 on: 19 October 2020, 23:02:37 »
The issue with a wandering Savannah Master is actually hitting it.  A SM wouldn't stick around to fight, and even at cruising speed it's not an easy target.

There are already rules for units starting with preexisting damage as a result of ongoing conflict.  If they're not in a running battle with no time to rotate out for repairs, there's no reason for them to have damage- the idea that there are just tons of random infantry platoons floating around ambushing every hostile force that sets foot onto a world simply isn't born out in-universe.

I'm going to be careful not to cross over into Rule 4 territory here (no real world politics stuff), but that's pretty much what the entire Iraq/Afghanistan war was.  And we've seen plenty of references in Battletech to garrison duty units having to hunt down insurgents and partisans.  So I think that's definitely something that exists in Battletech.

You yourself state that there are rules for starting with pre-existing damage.  Now if you were to actually look at how that damage was applied, you wouldn't just be starting by saying "oh my unit has X points of armor damage".  There would actually be some scenario where that damage was taken.  A group of infantry could attack from ambush, or a jet fighter could launch a salvo of SRMs at you and then fly off, or maybe you were involved in a small skirmish yesterday and haven't had time to make repairs.  The point is, attacks like that are very unlikely to immobilize a mech.  It's hard to disable a Battlemech without blowing limbs off of it.  But low intensity attacks like that have a very good chance of immobilizing a vehicle.  Over the course of months of combat, this will take a heavy toll on vehicle forces.

The "wandering monster" is just an illustration of the types of small, low intensity battles that can and do take place in Battletech.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #369 on: 19 October 2020, 23:26:14 »
You yourself state that there are rules for starting with pre-existing damage.

Yes, in instances where there's been a running battle, not clashes with random infantry platoons that just show up around the area with no support.  The Battletech universe is a place where civilian populations are weirdly complacent and don't make a habit of engaging in long-term partisan activities against occupying forces.  A scenario where a force was being repeatedly subjected to hit and run attacks in a campaign would usually be played out as being a case where you fight each individual battle and keep existing damage and ammo expenditure between fights.
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Adastra

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #370 on: 20 October 2020, 00:08:18 »
Yes, in instances where there's been a running battle, not clashes with random infantry platoons that just show up around the area with no support.  The Battletech universe is a place where civilian populations are weirdly complacent and don't make a habit of engaging in long-term partisan activities against occupying forces.  A scenario where a force was being repeatedly subjected to hit and run attacks in a campaign would usually be played out as being a case where you fight each individual battle and keep existing damage and ammo expenditure between fights.

For me personally (not going to speak for Massey), what I was envisioning was along the lines of a lance or company of light elements that have breached the front and are scouting/raiding the enemy's rear areas. They're attacking targets of opportunity while evading/reporting in larger concentrations of force. In such a scenario, the mechs will be taking damage from things like picket forces, convoy guards, supply depot garrisons,  VTOLs sent to hunt for them, etc. So less "wandering monsters" and more normal attrition. You hurt them, but they get chances to hurt you.

So to me, attrition would be things like:
-You broke through a weak point in the enemy line: but there were still light forces you had to fight. You kill/ignore them, but they ding you with a few SRMs.
-You come across a picket platoon set up on a nearby ridge, such that they have visibility for many kilometers. They start calling in artillery and reinforcements on you, and would continue to do so if you just ran away, so you wipe them out and bounce before the cavalry arrives. Of course, they disagree strenuously with your decision, and you take a good deal of small arms fire before you can prevail, and one of you gets caught on the edge of a Thumper blast.
-You come across a supply convoy, and start shooting up their trucks. They have some light armor and a mechanized platoon as escort, which you need to fight and destroy to get to the trucks.
-Finding a downed mech, you ambush the salvage crew left behind to recover it. Unfortunately, they managed to get the mech operational enough to fire off a few shots at you.

In all of those situations, you're likely to take at least a little damage, and it's in your best interest to vacate the area as soon as possible. If a unit is immobilized, it's as good as dead, because reinforcements are coming, almost certainly with enough firepower to take out your whole force. Whether someone choses to actually fight out those battles is irrelevant, they still occur within the fiction, and thus should be taken into account when discussing doctrine. In that respect, light mechs seem to beat out other options.

« Last Edit: 20 October 2020, 00:11:07 by Adastra »

SCC

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #371 on: 20 October 2020, 03:09:10 »
The point of the D&D reference is to draw a connection between an infantry squad or platoon, and a randomly rolled group of orcs.  The idea is that in D&D, there are enough things out there wandering around that you might encounter a group of monsters that just happened to be in the area.  In Battletech, you wouldn't encounter orcs, but you might encounter a random rifle platoon.  This wouldn't happen in a conventional game between two players, but might in a Mechwarrior campaign with a GM helping to craft the story.  Since this is a tabletop game message board, I figured the posters here would be familiar with the concept.  You could very easily encounter a small group of enemies without them being the focus of an evening's play session.  "On the way to the battle, you get shot at by some jerks with an SRM launcher..."

Battlemechs have a 1 in 36 chance of getting a through-armor-critical on the hit location chart (a 2.7% chance).  From the front and rear, vehicles have a 2 in 36 chance (rolls of 2 and 12, or a 5.4% chance).  From the side, vehicles have a 7 in 36 chance (locations 2, 8, and 12), for a 19.44% chance.  That's not motive hits, that's critical hits.  And the vehicle critical hit chart is a lot more damaging than the Battlemech critical chart.  Even under Total Warfare rules, vehicles are a lot more vulnerable to damage.
And you (I think it was you) said "Two five-point hits to the legs", when hitting the legs it's 50/50 which leg gets hit, so 1-in-4 that they hit the same leg, at which point a Bug 'Mech needs a new leg. And in this situation vehicle crits are a LOT more forgiving then 'Mech ones, because many of them will go away by the time the fight you're traveling to starts
A vehicle that can be quickly repaired in the field might actually be a liability to your side.  If all I have to do is swap out some tires, or repair a broken track, then it's easy for me (as an insurgent enemy) to take your vehicle from you.  Now I have a tank.
Yes, because a tank that is getting a tire change but otherwise functional is so defenseless.

I'm going to be careful not to cross over into Rule 4 territory here (no real world politics stuff), but that's pretty much what the entire Iraq/Afghanistan war was.  And we've seen plenty of references in Battletech to garrison duty units having to hunt down insurgents and partisans.  So I think that's definitely something that exists in Battletech.

You yourself state that there are rules for starting with pre-existing damage.  Now if you were to actually look at how that damage was applied, you wouldn't just be starting by saying "oh my unit has X points of armor damage".  There would actually be some scenario where that damage was taken.  A group of infantry could attack from ambush, or a jet fighter could launch a salvo of SRMs at you and then fly off, or maybe you were involved in a small skirmish yesterday and haven't had time to make repairs.  The point is, attacks like that are very unlikely to immobilize a mech.  It's hard to disable a Battlemech without blowing limbs off of it.  But low intensity attacks like that have a very good chance of immobilizing a vehicle.  Over the course of months of combat, this will take a heavy toll on vehicle forces.

The "wandering monster" is just an illustration of the types of small, low intensity battles that can and do take place in Battletech.
And this just shows why using 'Mechs here is a bad idea, you need infantry in this situation.

Adastra

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #372 on: 20 October 2020, 03:23:38 »
And you (I think it was you) said "Two five-point hits to the legs", when hitting the legs it's 50/50 which leg gets hit, so 1-in-4 that they hit the same leg, at which point a Bug 'Mech needs a new leg. And in this situation vehicle crits are a LOT more forgiving then 'Mech ones, because many of them will go away by the time the fight you're traveling to startsYes, because a tank that is getting a tire change but otherwise functional is so defenseless.
And this just shows why using 'Mechs here is a bad idea, you need infantry in this situation.

For 2 5-point hits, that doesn't necessarily mean being down a leg. Even 20-tonners can have 4 IS and 8 armor (the Locust is a prime example). It'll go internal, potentially score some nasty crits, but far from a guarantee. That's not even getting into anything heavier, which can definitely mount at least 10 points of leg armor.

What do you mean by "go away"? Crits don't fix themselves to my knowledge. And repair work isn't exactly something you can conduct on the move. Sure, sometimes a motive crit just means a flat tire, but it can just as easily be a cracked axle, or a melted suspension. Those are not field repairs. At best you'll need an hour and spare parts that aren't typically carried, at worst the whole vehicle is a write-off.

According to Strategic Operations rules, Motive Systems can't be replaced, only repaired (which takes an hour). So if your repair roll fails, the vehicle is done until you can get a better tech. If no better tech is available, the vehicle is just broken.

In any situation where a vehicle is immobilized and the enemy has taken the field, immobilized vehicles are basically lost. The enemy can deal with them at their leisure by using long-ranged weapons, artillery, etc. And that's assuming the tank crew is suicidal and won't bail out or surrender. So if you retreated or withdrew, say goodbye to anything that can't run away. Heck, even if you have control of the battlefield after a fight? As long as the enemy is in artillery range you can sure bet they'll take some parthian shots at your immobilized units.

While some of these situations are definitely better-served with other units, some are things that will happen to you regardless of whether you're on the front-lines or machine-gunning civilians pacifying the population. Things like strafing runs from flyers and artillery are, if anything, more likely to hit you right before you have to fight.

« Last Edit: 20 October 2020, 04:19:38 by Adastra »

SCC

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #373 on: 20 October 2020, 04:35:56 »
For 2 5-point hits, that doesn't necessarily mean being down a leg. Even 20-tonners can have 4 IS and 8 armor (the Locust is a prime example). It'll go internal, potentially score some nasty crits, but far from a guarantee. That's not even getting into anything heavier, which can definitely mount at least 10 points of leg armor.
My mistake, I don't know hoe I skipped over the Locust when I was checking out the numbers
What do you mean by "go away"? Crits don't fix themselves to my knowledge. And repair work isn't exactly something you can conduct on the move. Sure, sometimes a motive crit just means a flat tire, but it can just as easily be a cracked axle, or a melted suspension. Those are not field repairs. At best you'll need an hour and spare parts that aren't typically carried, at worst the whole vehicle is a write-off. According to Strategic Operations rules, Motive Systems can't be replaced, only repaired (which takes an hour). So if your repair roll fails, the vehicle is done until you can get a better tech. If no better tech is available, the vehicle is just broken.
Crew Stunned goes, and I'd imagine that Commander and Driver Hits would also resolve themselves before a battle, and I figure that crews would fix things like Weapon Malfunctions and Turret Jams before getting into a fight.
In any situation where a vehicle is immobilized and the enemy has taken the field, immobilized vehicles are basically lost. The enemy can deal with them at their leisure by using long-ranged weapons, artillery, etc. And that's assuming the tank crew is suicidal and won't bail out or surrender. So if you retreated or withdrew, say goodbye to anything that can't run away. Heck, even if you have control of the battlefield after a fight? As long as the enemy is in artillery range you can sure bet they'll take some parthian shots at your immobilized units.

While some of these situations are definitely better-served with other units, some are things that will happen to you regardless of whether you're on the front-lines or machine-gunning civilians pacifying the population. Things like strafing runs from flyers and artillery are, if anything, more likely to hit you right before you have to fight.
The talk of vehicles being immobilized here was by damage from a single or pair of mines/IEDs the vehicle had encountered by chance, or by a roaming platoon of infantry, none of which are situations where the vehicle has to worry about being captured.

Kovax

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #374 on: 20 October 2020, 09:46:55 »
A motive hit on a vehicle isn't going to go away, and if you're operating behind enemy lines, you'd better hope that no opposing units happen to spot you while you're attempting makeshift field repairs.  Yes, you can probably still shoot back, but you're an immobile target.  Of course, a gun jam or crew stunned critical hit is likely to be taken care of at the first opportunity, but a commander or driver hit is going to cause a longer-term reduction in effectiveness, even if it may not necessarily stop you from performing your assigned task (although a commander or driver hit on a one-man crew is going to leave the unit inoperative).  Most crews are going to terminate the mission and return to friendly territory for the sake of the wounded, if they can.

Most bug-'Mechs are going to routinely engage and destroy any opposing infantry that get in their way, but a Savannah Master isn't designed for that role, and will most likely try to get out of visual range of the spotters as quickly as possible.  A 'Mech can easily endure the scattered 2-point hits that a typical patrolling enemy Infantry squad will inflict (the odds of encountering a lone unit of field guns or battle armor set up in ambush far behind enemy lines is fairly remote), but a hovercraft would be at serious risk of immobilization, followed by capture or destruction at the hands of that same infantry unit.

Also, if pursued by enemy vehicles, a 'Mech can traverse terrain impassible to the vehicles.  A hovercraft can only do that over water.  Further, in broken terrain, scattered woods, or other areas with a lot of obstructions or hills, the 'Mech will be able to maneuver freely at maximum speed, whereas a hovercraft will often need to reduce itself to cruising speed, or else face a series of piloting checks to avoid becoming part of the terrain.  While there are areas where a specific type of vehicle may be preferable, a 'Mech is a very viable option in almost all of them (swamps or open water being the primary exceptions).

Elmoth

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #375 on: 20 October 2020, 10:38:35 »
Well, adaptable strategic mobility and endurance in front of enemy fire are the 2 key advantages of mechs in front of any other unit type after all. That goes both for assaults (both mechs and vehicles)  and recon units.

Valaska

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #376 on: 12 December 2020, 05:02:54 »
Well, in the clans they can carry elementals right up to where they need to be of course. But beyond that, I've had a couple of fire falcons wrap up entire lances using the terrain and cover around them waiting for the enemy to give their back. Any light mech with an AC/2 and an SRM or 2 is pretty formidable, or just a couple ER ML's. A light mech can force a person o give up a position or just keep taking hits in the back, they can burninate the countryside and make smoke screens where you need them ahead of time, or deal with battle armour.

Revealing blips is great too. And tbh... most games I played in went by battle value, not drop tonnage outside of campaigns. Campaigns are a whole different beast but even then 2-4 lights can take the place of 1 heavy... especially if you are the ground defender or you start with cost and bv for formations.

But purely in the game itself, you can really open up a lot of angles and get them where you need them especially when players aren't used to dealing with some of the more deadly light mechs out there. It's not just panthers and hollanders, there's a lot of great light mechs to really mess with people's troop organization. They can completely disrupt static formations etc. Heck, I can't tell you how many crits or times I've forced someone to move out of a preferred position because I had a few fast moving light mechs.

But tbh ignore the ones with jump jets generally... generally I hate jump jets period they are waste of tonnage imo. But in light mechs you need everything in open ground speed, guns, and what armour you can manage to get.

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #377 on: 12 December 2020, 06:55:49 »
Light mechs suffer from battletech being a game in the 3050+ tech levels.  In reality, a light mech with hands would be a phenomenal infantry support unit, escorting infantry through dense terrain, and melee plus lasers plus fusion engine are a source of infinite damage on extended campaigns--a stinger can (slowly) knock down woods and bully infantry on patrol, while building fieldworks for attached infantry or clearing obstructions on a road.  Also, a 6/9/6 stinger is faster than most tanks, and without gamey initiative rules a stinger could just keep pace with a slow tank and climb on top of it, never in arc of the turret, whittling it down similar to infantry swarming a tank in modern times.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #378 on: 12 December 2020, 16:28:45 »
Clan light mechs that pack ER PPCs or ER Large Lasers tend to be brutal against IS mech in open terrain since they have an easy time dashing around and sniping.  Tough mechs can't close on them, and IS mechs of similar mass can't take the hits.  Unless you've got something that can limit their mobility (whether that's terrain, map size, or something like Thunder LRMs), they're not easy to deal with.
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Valaska

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #379 on: 13 December 2020, 18:58:28 »
Clan light mechs that pack ER PPCs or ER Large Lasers tend to be brutal against IS mech in open terrain since they have an easy time dashing around and sniping.  Tough mechs can't close on them, and IS mechs of similar mass can't take the hits.  Unless you've got something that can limit their mobility (whether that's terrain, map size, or something like Thunder LRMs), they're not easy to deal with.

For sure! But I honestly like the chip damage and mid-range builds. Any light mech with ER MK's and SRM4/6 can forcibly move enemies out of their positions and expose back shots etc. When I play Innersphere SRM4/6 and AC2's are my jam. AC2's are among the best light mech weapons imo, they have a reasonable punch with enough range that it makes them hard to ignore.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #380 on: 13 December 2020, 23:19:43 »
You think that the AC2 has a reasonable punch?What's your definition of insufficient punch?
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Valaska

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #381 on: 13 December 2020, 23:55:54 »
Micro Laser.

lol but no seriously, the AC-2 has long enough range you can keep hitting things sufficiently to chip away at armour, with a light it means that during that closing period or just picking you can wear away at rear armour even. Ignore it long enough and it'll give you a nice opening for SRM's and ML's. If you use AP and they ignore you while you pick at them from behind you can cripple battlemechs.

I like AC2's on lights.

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #382 on: 14 December 2020, 01:29:38 »
How many crits do you tend to actually score in a single game with AP-loaded 2-guns? And if the answer is greater than 0-1, how often do you get accused of using loaded dice?

If you're getting good use out of AC/2 ammo that's harder to hit with and only gets crits on a 12, then I want your dice. :o
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Valaska

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #383 on: 14 December 2020, 01:34:11 »
How many crits do you tend to actually score in a single game with AP-loaded 2-guns? And if the answer is greater than 0-1, how often do you get accused of using loaded dice?

If you're getting good use out of AC/2 ammo that's harder to hit with and only gets crits on a 12, then I want your dice. :o

Ahaha... would you believe that's not the first time I've been asked about loaded dice? But seriously, it depends on who I am facing. If it's against a player who lets me keep chipping I can score 2-3 crits a game with it into rear armour before they are forced to turn their mech so I don't have a back arc anymore. But yeah most people won't let me get that much time on their rear table so about 1 crit a game is about right! Even though, that chip damage does help before I move in for SRM and ERML's.

It can really wreak havoc once you do finally commit the light mechs into the fight. A lot of people, well back when our club was still playing... but even on MegaMek I suppose! A lot of people end up taking equipment just to deal with the light and medium mechs I use to divide their attention. It ends up making really dynamic and interesting fights.

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #384 on: 14 December 2020, 03:07:35 »
If you're getting good use out of AC/2 ammo that's harder to hit with and only gets crits on a 12, then I want your dice. :o

Uh, since when is AP ammo harder to hit a target with than standard ammo?
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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #385 on: 14 December 2020, 04:01:14 »
AP ammo has always applied a +1 penalty to the attack roll.
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Valaska

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #386 on: 14 December 2020, 04:26:59 »
AP ammo has always applied a +1 penalty to the attack roll.

Yarp. A pretty worth it trade-off especially with clan gunner skill.

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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #387 on: 14 December 2020, 10:38:08 »
AP ammo has always applied a +1 penalty to the attack roll.

Considering its range, the AC/2 rather compensates for that pretty well.
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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #388 on: 14 December 2020, 11:07:19 »
AP ammo has always applied a +1 penalty to the attack roll.

Ah, I do not use it b/c the most useful sizes due to ammo bin have such a crit roll penalty so I never take it to table top.  Then again a AC/2 field gun platoon with AP ammo on rapid fire . . . might have to try that- lifespan would match ammo availability.
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Re: Advantages of light 'Mechs
« Reply #389 on: 14 December 2020, 16:35:00 »
Yarp. A pretty worth it trade-off especially with clan gunner skill.

Not with halving the amount of shots per ton and the huge penalty to the crit roll.  I only bother with AP ammo for the AC10 on a regular basis, and only take it for other guns if I expect to encounter Hardened Armor.

Besides, the Clans only have access to it for Protomech ACs, which are hardly sniper weapons.
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