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Author Topic: ATM ammo selection  (Read 737 times)

Dassenkop

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ATM ammo selection
« on: 05 April 2021, 01:11:37 »
Hi. It wasn't very clear to me whether for the ATM system you have to select 1 ammo type or have a mix of ammo types that you can select before start of the game. After reading some more I have the impression you can mix the various missiles types and wondering if that is correct. But how to I allocate them?

For instance if I look at the Nova E with its ATM12. It has 6 slots of ammo at 5 ammo each. Do I select 1 ammo type per slot/ton? For instance 2 standard, 1 extended range and 3 HE? Or do I look at the total shots of 30 and mix and match with this in any way I like?

Not sure if relevant but compare that to the Gladiotor E with its ATM9, which has which has only 5 ammo slots with each 7 ammo. Here each ammo type will have 7 shots so a total of 35 shots.


Brakiel

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #1 on: 12 April 2021, 05:12:29 »
Ammo type is always allocated by the ton. Only units which load ammo individually (like BA or ProtoMechs) can allocate by shot.

theagent

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #2 on: 12 April 2021, 09:55:11 »
Hi. It wasn't very clear to me whether for the ATM system you have to select 1 ammo type or have a mix of ammo types that you can select before start of the game. After reading some more I have the impression you can mix the various missiles types and wondering if that is correct. But how to I allocate them?

For instance if I look at the Nova E with its ATM12. It has 6 slots of ammo at 5 ammo each. Do I select 1 ammo type per slot/ton? For instance 2 standard, 1 extended range and 3 HE? Or do I look at the total shots of 30 and mix and match with this in any way I like?

Not sure if relevant but compare that to the Gladiotor E with its ATM9, which has which has only 5 ammo slots with each 7 ammo. Here each ammo type will have 7 shots so a total of 35 shots.

Each ammo type can only be allocated in 1-ton lots.  So, the Nova E has 6 slots of ammo, so it has all sorts of options based on what you expect to do in that scenario:
  • 6 tons of standard ammo:  want to cover your bases without having to track different ammo types
  • 6 tons of HE ammo:  assume you'll be staying close to your enemies
  • 6 tons of ER ammo:  assume you'll be staying farther out to inflict long-range fire on your enemies
  • 2 tons each of standard, HE & ER ammo:  want to cover your bases, but are willing to deal with the extra hassle of tracking each ammo type for the ability to better select the right ammo each turn
  • 4 tons of standard ammo, 1 ton each of HE & ER ammo:  assuming you'll maybe spend a turn or to in long-range fire, spend a lot of time dancing around at mid-range with your opponents, & then close in quickly to finish them off.
  • 3 tons of standard ammo, 2 tons of ER ammo, 1 ton of HE ammo:  similar to the prior option, but you plan on spending more time at long-range before you have to start dancing.
  • 3 tons of standard ammo, 2 tons of HE ammo, 1 ton of ER ammo:  similar to the option 2 spots above, but you plan to spend less time at long-range & want to start dancing sooner, & then really pummel your enemies at close range.

And so forth.


garhkal

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #3 on: 12 April 2021, 15:05:31 »
Do I select 1 ammo type per slot/ton? For instance 2 standard, 1 extended range and 3 HE?

THAT is how you're supposed to do it.  Just like if i had an LB-10x with 3 tons of ammo, i'd have to mark it say 2 tons cluster, 1 ton slug..
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five_corparty

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #4 on: 12 April 2021, 20:30:55 »
Ammo type is always allocated by the ton. Only units which load ammo individually (like BA or ProtoMechs) can allocate by shot.

And it's important to track because when it goes BOOM each ton does different damage to your innards if you ain't rocking the CASE!  :'( :'( hahaha
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Colt Ward

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #5 on: 13 April 2021, 09:24:22 »
And it's important to track because when it goes BOOM each ton does different damage to your innards if you ain't rocking the CASE!  :'( :'( hahaha

And nothing feels better than when incoming fire crits that empty ammo bin you just fired the last shot out of that turn.  In my experience, most players do not concern themselves with where/how their ammo is pulled BUT . . . it is a degree of finesse about how you use up your ammo.  I have had a hit on a ammo bin that I had been running dry that did just enough damage (1-3 shots) to damage that location but not wreck it.  Sure the mechwarrior was suffering but it is the difference between getting the mech blown apart and being able to struggle off the field of battle.
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garhkal

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #6 on: 13 April 2021, 14:53:16 »
One of my favorite games at gencon/origins, was into my 8th round of fire, and i just got done loosing off my 8th salvo from the twin LRM-15's my archer had (pulled out of the left torso's ammo bin, the right had been untouched)..  So when i got critted afterwards, and it hit that bin, there was no ammo in it, for the bin to go boom from!
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Greatclub

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #7 on: 16 April 2021, 23:37:10 »
I tend towards HE and ER, sometimes skipping standard entirely in the usual 3 tons of ATM 12 ammo.

HE for raw hurt, ER for the good to-hits. Standard just feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #8 on: 17 April 2021, 08:57:32 »
I tend towards HE and ER, sometimes skipping standard entirely in the usual 3 tons of ATM 12 ammo.

HE for raw hurt, ER for the good to-hits. Standard just feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

This 100%: HE is very fun and my opponents hate it sometimes, ER is just like ‘gotta hit you round one to make sure you’re on your toes, and here in round seven I need a six to hit’

garhkal

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #9 on: 17 April 2021, 14:12:51 »
I forget where i first got exposed to ATM's on clans, but the player i was facing off against, did the same thing..  Had iirc a pair of ATMs (not sure size) and had only 3 tons each launcher.  1 ton each, was ER ammo, the other 2 were HE ammo...  REALLY laid into my mechs with those...
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Jellico

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #10 on: 17 April 2021, 14:20:41 »
There is only a band of 2 hexes or so where standard ammo is effective. It is generally not worth it.

Hellraiser

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #11 on: 17 April 2021, 14:26:54 »
I like to take a ton of Standard if I'm packing 3+ tons of ammo but if its only 2 then for sure its the first type to get left out.
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Wolf72

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #12 on: 17 April 2021, 16:19:35 »
There is only a band of 2 hexes or so where standard ammo is effective. It is generally not worth it.

That is a good fact to know and keep in mind.  I might have to revisit some of my designs and redistribute some ammo allocation (that sounds very redundant for some reason)
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Iceweb

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #13 on: 18 April 2021, 01:59:40 »
Related question; What type of load outs do you all like for iATMs? 
With two more ammo types to choose from, and the ability to go streaky and also indirect how much ammo do you tend to need?  Are the two other types useful or are they junk like standard ammo?

five_corparty

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #14 on: 18 April 2021, 10:53:57 »
I like to take a ton of Standard if I'm packing 3+ tons of ammo but if its only 2 then for sure its the first type to get left out.

same!  :thumbsup:
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Sir Chaos

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #15 on: 18 April 2021, 13:18:19 »
Do any of the ATM ammo types allow for indirect fire?
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Greatclub

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #16 on: 18 April 2021, 13:28:23 »
ATM, no.

The the iATM, yes. That was used by one faction that never made it to the inner sphere.

Hellraiser

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #17 on: 18 April 2021, 22:22:59 »
Related question; What type of load outs do you all like for iATMs? 
With two more ammo types to choose from, and the ability to go streaky and also indirect how much ammo do you tend to need?  Are the two other types useful or are they junk like standard ammo?

I've honestly never used them, but, IMHO, my policy on ATMs is just that much more for iATMs.

That policy is ALL OR NOTHING.

IE.  I don't use small single ATM launchers.    I choose designs that have more than 1 launcher & preferably LOTS of them.

Unlike SRM/LRM where I don't mind a single launcher at times,  the ATM/iATM just scream MISSILE BOAT to me.

Other than a token ERLL in the head/CT,  I'm all in for nothing but ATMs filling the sides/arms of the mech.
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Colt Ward

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #18 on: 19 April 2021, 00:17:16 »
Timber Wolf E, hard to find a better ATM based design in the game.
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Charistoph

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #19 on: 19 April 2021, 00:23:23 »
I like to take a ton of Standard if I'm packing 3+ tons of ammo but if its only 2 then for sure its the first type to get left out.

Oddly enough, I feel that way about ER.  The racks of ATMs are just too small for 1/m.

Admittedly, I haven't taken time to use them since they were released.  I've been focusing on IS gear for what games I'd get, and more than a few of those were Introtech.
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Colt Ward

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #20 on: 19 April 2021, 01:31:16 »
Sort of the AC/2 argument . . . being able to hit a target at 27 hexes- against the IS especially- is nice.  Being at medium range at 18 hexes is nice too . . .

But you also have to remember that ATMs have integral Artemis IV systems and to add that +2 to the missile rolls- something I tend to forget on TT.
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theagent

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #21 on: 19 April 2021, 12:29:29 »
There is only a band of 2 hexes or so where standard ammo is effective. It is generally not worth it.

If you mean the band where it's at Short range but doesn't have any Minimum Range penalties, that's technically true...but it makes twice as effective as LRM ammo (regular or special), as it only has one hex where the ammo is "effective".

The true effectiveness of "standard" ammo, however, is that it gives you the firepower per missile of SRMs (2 points each), while giving you range brackets in between SRMs & LRMs.  That actually gives it three effective range bands where it's superior to SRMs:
  • Band 1 (4-5 hexes):  ATM launcher is still at Short range (no mod), but SRM/Streak launchers are now in the Medium bracket (+2 mod) (against Clan Streaks, it's limited to the 5-hex range, but otherwise the same)
  • Band 2 (7-9 hexes):  ATM launcher is at Medium range (+2 mod), but SRM/Streak launchers are in the Long bracket (+4 mod) (again, against Clan Streaks this is limited to the 9-hex range, but otherwise the same)
  • Band 3 (10-15 hexes):  ATM launchers are at Medium (+2 mod) at 10 hexes & Long (+4 mod) at 11-15 hexes.  Unless playing with the optional Extreme bracket (+6 mod), however, SRM/Streak launchers cannot hit anything at this range (against Clan Streaks it's limited to the 13-15 hex range, but otherwise the same)

Jellico

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #22 on: 19 April 2021, 14:10:15 »
Okay. Assuming a 3 gunner, running, with the target drawing 2.

So a base roll of 7.

Using an ATM12, damage brackets are 10, 20, 30 based on Aero Attack, which averages the Cluster Table damage.

Hex 1-3. Use HE. Averages 17.5 per turn. Std does 11.67

Hex 4-5. Use Std. Averages 11.67 per turn. HE is 8.3 and ER 5.83

Hex 6-9. Use ER. Averages 5.83 per turn. Std is 5.56

Hex 10. Use Std. Averages 5.56 per turn. ER is 2.78.

Hex 11-27. Use ER. Averages 2.78. Std is 1.67

Now, because of the 2D6 bell curve, the better your gunner the more damage beats accuracy.
The reverse is true, so the harder the target is to hit the more accuracy matters.

So with a 2 gunner Std dominates from 4-10 hexes.
Conversely the original pattern holds true when the target is drawing a +3 or +4.

So, if you have to choose 2 tons of ATM it is not worth looking at Std unless you have a good pilot, intend to stand still a lot, or are facing a slow opponent.

Hellraiser

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #23 on: 19 April 2021, 14:24:16 »
snip

I like it  :thumbsup:

Some something like the Savage Coyote which is ATM heavy & also slow & used to killing other slow things,  it all works well.

But maybe not best used when trying to hunt a Grendel in an Ice Ferret   ;)

Matches how I like to use them which is in BUNCHES :)
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theagent

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Re: ATM ammo selection
« Reply #24 on: 22 April 2021, 11:16:56 »
It's a little easier to review the math if we look at the individual missiles, vs. from a particular launcher.  Then we don't have to worry about any effects from the Cluster Hits table.

  • In the 1-3 hex range, HE missiles are the best choice (1.75 standard points/missile), with Standard beating out ER for 2nd place as they do twice as much damage (but being well within minimum range for both, they don't hold a candle to ER missiles).
  • At 4 hexes, both HE & Standard do the same average damage (0.8333/missile); the higher damage of the HE is offset by its reduced accuracy (being in the Medium bracket now).  ER is left way in the dust, basically doing half the damage.
  • At 5 hexes, Standard is the clear winner; it suffers from no penalties as it is not in Minimum Range, & is still in its Short Range bracket, so its damage (1.1667/missile) is higher than the HE (0.8333/missile).  ER still brings up the rear.
  • At 6 hexes, HE takes the lead again (0.8333/missile).  This time, however, because it is still at Short Range, ER takes a slight edge over Standard (0.5833/missile ER, 0.5556/missile Std).
  • At 7-9 hexes, ER remains in the lead (0.5833/missile) over Standard (0.5556/missile).  HE is left in the dust, as the reduced accuracy at Long range leaves it dealing less than half the average damage (0.25/missile).
  • At 10 hexes, Standard takes the lead again (0.5556/missile), dealing double the damage of ER (0.2778/missile) as both are in the Medium bracket.  HE is completely out of the running, as it can't touch anything at this range.
  • At 11 to 15 hexes, ER edges out Standard (0.2778/missile ER, 0.1667/missile Std), as ER is still in the Medium Range bracket while Standard is now in the Long.
  • From 16 hexes onward, the only choice is ER, as not even Standard ammo can reach that far

Based on those figures, you want to make sure you have HE ammo if you expect to be staying within 6 hexes of your opponent at all times.  Whether your 2nd ton is ER or Standard, however, depends on how long you expect to spend beyond 10 hexes from your opponent, otherwise Standard is just as useful.

However...

I found some changes when I tweaked the base accuracy numbers just a bit -- for example, assuming base Gunnery 2, attacker Runs (+2), & defender has a combined modifier (TMM &/or terrain factors) of +3, you get a base of 6+ to hit at short (26/36 chance), 8+ at Medium (15/36), & 10+ at Long (6/36).  This actually made some changes to the "winner" list:
  • HE ammo was still the winner for hexes 1-3 and hex 6
  • Standard was still the winner for hexes 4, 5 & 10.
  • This time, however, Standard was the winner for hexes 7-9 (0.8333/missile, vs. 0.7222 for ER & 0.5 for HE).
  • ER doesn't take over as leader until once your target is 11 hexes or farther away (& of course the only choice if 16+ hexes away)

What that shows me is that, if your TN to hit your opponent is going to be higher (high Gunnery score, high TMM/terrain penalties, etc.), then yes, you want to maybe focus on just the HE & ER ammo.  But if you have a highly skilled pilot and/or know you're going up against slower opponents, & especially if the mapsheets limit LOS beyond 10+ hexes, then it's actually smarter to stick with HE & Standard ammo to maximize your damage.