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Author Topic: BA Spec Ops/Commandos  (Read 3505 times)

OatsAndHall

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BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« on: 22 March 2023, 13:12:40 »
SCC's thread regarding his force make-up got me thinking. What types of BA would you choose for a few squads or a  platoon of Spec Ops/Commandos? Not necessarily a unit with a scout role; more of an infiltrate/raise hell group. Nighthawks came to mind.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #1 on: 22 March 2023, 13:30:54 »
Nighthawk, Kage, and Purifier come to my mind.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #2 on: 22 March 2023, 13:43:36 »
Anything with Stealth Armor and Jump Jets would be ideal. Infiltrator Mk IIs were ready made for it as were Tornadoes, Nighthawks, and Kages. Some good sabotage roles could also be had from the Fa Shin

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #3 on: 22 March 2023, 14:02:10 »
Light suits with gloves can take infantry TAG, or nasty things like portable plasma rifles.

Fenris armor with srm 4s, if you could sneak them in, could certainly do a number.

Angrii

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #4 on: 22 March 2023, 14:02:35 »
It's been pointed out by wiser minds than mine that jump jets might not be practical for infiltration work (thermal blooms, noise and what have you). Something with mechanical jump boosters like Spectres might serve.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #5 on: 22 March 2023, 15:00:23 »
You don't have to use the jump jets but they are nice to have. Let's you deploy from aircraft and bypass obstacles

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #6 on: 22 March 2023, 15:31:03 »
Parachutes and zip lines do the same thing. Give me something with high ground speed that can move through the inside of a large building faster than conventional defenders can respond.

I'll also second the call for at least one Armored Glove. Both for weapon flexibility, and also for being able to pick up and recover valuable objects without destroying them, like memory sticks. Or people.
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Dapper Apples

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #7 on: 22 March 2023, 15:44:06 »
Give me something with high ground speed that can move through the inside of a large building faster than conventional defenders can respond.

A protomech  :D

OatsAndHall

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #8 on: 22 March 2023, 15:52:00 »
Was Nighthawk BA readily available?

Colt Ward

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #9 on: 22 March 2023, 17:00:24 »
Purifiers are better for LPOP teams, not spec ops . . . their suit advantages do not exist on the move.

It is interesting to see Void & Infiltrators mentioned but the GDL Scout & Void get left out, both of which have that application . . . and the Scout actually PLAYS that role in fiction.

Here would be my criteria-
some form of Stealth Armor- no see me!
Armored Glove- manipulate/operate standard doors/interfaces
high ground speed- jump jets are not covert
good main weapon that can function AM & AI- recoilless rifles, AP Gauss, and certain weapons w/TacOps rules like Plasma Rifles

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SCC

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #10 on: 22 March 2023, 17:35:05 »
Parachutes and zip lines do the same thing. Give me something with high ground speed that can move through the inside of a large building faster than conventional defenders can respond.

I'll also second the call for at least one Armored Glove. Both for weapon flexibility, and also for being able to pick up and recover valuable objects without destroying them, like memory sticks. Or people.
So with you here, mentally I've been kicking around a couple of designs almost along these lines.

The Raider was designed for LosTech hunting units. It wants at least a half ton of cargo lifting in addition to the armored gloves, because not everything is light in BT; Advanced Sensors so it can find stuff; Armor to protect it. Other useful equipment may include Searchlights, Cutting Torches, and Power Packs.

The Gymmnast, design for infiltration wants stealth armor, high ground move, mynomer booster and cargo.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #11 on: 22 March 2023, 17:45:25 »
 Try out the Phalanx.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #12 on: 22 March 2023, 20:58:55 »

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Cannonshop

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #13 on: 23 March 2023, 12:19:26 »
A commando op at its highest perfection is out of the scene before teh enemy knows he's been hit.

Seriously, if you're engaging in enemies whom are shooting back, your operation has largely ****** up.

unless they're panic-firing because they're freaked out and can't find you, being as you're already wherever they aren't shooting.

thus, my own choice: Sneak Suits.  Save the Battlearmor for elite conventional infantry tasks, which DO come with an expectation that the other side is going to be shooting at you.
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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #14 on: 23 March 2023, 12:26:06 »
Achileus, because it's my favorite BA ever.  Jump jets allow them to deploy via air drop, the improved stealth armor helps with infiltration, and they carry enough armor & weaponry to handle security teams and even non-'Mech QRFs.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #15 on: 23 March 2023, 13:12:54 »
I'm thinking the jump jets could serve an emergency egress purpose. Better to have jump jets and not need them than not have the alternative. Chit goes to hell, get out of there with the jump jets.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #16 on: 23 March 2023, 13:26:23 »
Problem there is you either have high ground speed OR you can jump.  And jumping is NOT stealthy.
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Cannonshop

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #17 on: 23 March 2023, 13:31:16 »
Problem there is you either have high ground speed OR you can jump.  And jumping is NOT stealthy.

Hence why, for COMMANDO operations, I wouldn't go with battlesuits at all.  Instead investing in infiltration tactics, and training, and leave the suities for the straight up mostly-conventional fighting.  You don't send Tanks on a commando raid for a reason-a commando raid is striking where the enemy thinks you can't reach, and it's all about getting asymmetric levels of 'bang' for your investment by hitting them where they think they're safe.
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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #18 on: 23 March 2023, 13:41:02 »
If you're not wanting to use BA in role, why are you posting in a thread that is explicitly about using BA in that role? You could just as easily go post in another thread, and just let us have fun Being Wrong.
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Colt Ward

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #19 on: 23 March 2023, 13:43:53 »
BA are not the tanks, and they let each individual trooper bring the most bang and mission equipment.

Spec forces troopers are not kitted out lightly.  Yeah, they will drop packs to be more tactical in a gun-fight, but they are going to usually be loaded up on munitions and/or rations along with mission critical gear.  This is to take a bridge, C3 bunker, go Headhunting, or such where combat is expected rather than be a snake sitting in a LPOP waiting to call in artillery or air strikes.

I actually forgot, we really have two mass examples- GDL Scouts setting up charges on Skye separatist mechs in Dying Times and a battalion of Infiltrator Mk IIs that dropped on their parafoils to try to get into the Cave on New Syrtis then fought in the tunnels against Cavalier guards.

Dirty Dozen not Guns of Navarone.

MAYBE the Eagle Has Landed.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #20 on: 23 March 2023, 15:46:20 »
I'm aware of the fact that infiltration suits might be better suited to special operations. With that being said, various BA types do provide more protection, armament as well as stealth within these missions.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #21 on: 23 March 2023, 18:03:23 »
If using Powered Armor I'd go with at most an exoskeleton with some sort of stealth armor.  Anything heavier would leave a bigger trace, plus each kg not used for the Spec Ops suits is another kg of mission gear (rechargers, explosives, surveillance equipment, maintenance equipment, food, etc).

So whatever sort of exoskeleton is used, it needs to be sneaky, fast (likely ground MP only), and preferably energy-armed to avoid the need for extra ammo.

The key problem is the battery life for Inner Sphere BA, 24 hrs IIRC.  So they would need a recharge point within 12 hours of the target, and preferably closer than that.  Or part of the mission gear could be an additional Power Pack, giving each Exoskeleton trooper another 10 hours of endurance.

The advantage of an exoskeleton trooper is that if they need to carry someone or something, it is much easier to carry using a 400 kg exoskeleton than by hand.

Of course, this has to be measured if a single 400 kg Exo-trooper carrying their own mission gear is a better idea than 2 normal troopers and their mission gear massing a total of 400 kg.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #22 on: 24 March 2023, 00:20:16 »
Problem there is you either have high ground speed OR you can jump.  And jumping is NOT stealthy.
Strictly speaking you can do both, nothing in the BA construction rules forbids it...  There's just no reason to do both 99.9% of the time; doing both costs a lot more tonnage than dedicating to one motive type. (and there's no canon BA that does so IIRC)

If optimizing to sneak behind enemy lines instead of throwing missiles through the field, there could be some merit to outfitting BA with both.  Jump Jets opens the squad to deploying from mid-air platforms and work anywhere (parafoils don't work outside of atmosphere).  Trot on foot most of the way there (possibly using the jets to traverse obstacles, but only if there's no other way, or if you're very certain there's no risk of detection).  Do whatever mission you came to do, and ideally walk back to the extraction point, with the Jets acting as a bit of insurance in case things go very wrong.

Depending on the specific mission requirements, taking a baseline of a PA(L) suit with stealth armor, jets, enhanced ground speed, gloves, and your faction's preferred firearm might be good enough of a starting point: Toss on required mission equipment as desired with the few remaining crits & 85 kilos.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #23 on: 24 March 2023, 10:27:11 »
Speed takes up a lot of Mass, a lot more than Jumping.  With a focus on Speed AND Jumping, there won't be a lot left for things like weaponry.

Still, so long as one isn't expecting to face off against Tanks, 'Mechs, or even ProtoMechs, you should mostly be fine.
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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #24 on: 24 March 2023, 11:08:03 »
 I think that too much is being expected out of Battle Armor. A speed of 2 is helpful, but 1 is still acceptable.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #25 on: 24 March 2023, 11:20:18 »
Run 3 / jump 3 isn't all that difficult as long as you don’t need Elemental-level armor; example

Or you can go light and all terrain; example
« Last Edit: 24 March 2023, 13:52:46 by Sabelkatten »

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #26 on: 24 March 2023, 11:23:41 »
I know someone said energy weapon so they did not have to carry ammo, but a energy weapon on BA still has to deal with 'ammo' since they do not have a means of generating power.  I would, as a tactical constraint for the design, RATHER have non-energy ammo because then I have a hard read on my suit's power use rather than having to decided whether I am shooting or going to run the suit.  Going '5 hours of suit power left' . . . then get into a heavy firefight and discover you have '2 hours of suit power left,' losing 2 hours to weapons use would mess with your plans.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #27 on: 24 March 2023, 13:20:19 »
Speed takes up a lot of Mass, a lot more than Jumping.  With a focus on Speed AND Jumping, there won't be a lot left for things like weaponry.

Still, so long as one isn't expecting to face off against Tanks, 'Mechs, or even ProtoMechs, you should mostly be fine.

The particular missions I'm thinking about wouldn't involve direct conflict with active mechs or vehicles. The most invasive objective would be proving TAG for artillery or IDF. If that's the case, they'd need the ability to get out ASAFP as the TAG lock would pop up in a hurry.

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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #28 on: 24 March 2023, 13:28:57 »
[snip]

Dirty Dozen not Guns of Navarone.

MAYBE the Eagle Has Landed.

see, I tend to think of that as a more conventional light/medium infantry mission, rather than a true Commando operation.  To MY thinking (warped as it is)

If using Powered Armor I'd go with at most an exoskeleton with some sort of stealth armor.  Anything heavier would leave a bigger trace, plus each kg not used for the Spec Ops suits is another kg of mission gear (rechargers, explosives, surveillance equipment, maintenance equipment, food, etc).

So whatever sort of exoskeleton is used, it needs to be sneaky, fast (likely ground MP only), and preferably energy-armed to avoid the need for extra ammo.

The key problem is the battery life for Inner Sphere BA, 24 hrs IIRC.  So they would need a recharge point within 12 hours of the target, and preferably closer than that.  Or part of the mission gear could be an additional Power Pack, giving each Exoskeleton trooper another 10 hours of endurance.

The advantage of an exoskeleton trooper is that if they need to carry someone or something, it is much easier to carry using a 400 kg exoskeleton than by hand.

Of course, this has to be measured if a single 400 kg Exo-trooper carrying their own mission gear is a better idea than 2 normal troopers and their mission gear massing a total of 400 kg.

is probably closer to what you'd kit Commando units with, though I'd say the energy weapon thing...
I know someone said energy weapon so they did not have to carry ammo, but a energy weapon on BA still has to deal with 'ammo' since they do not have a means of generating power.  I would, as a tactical constraint for the design, RATHER have non-energy ammo because then I have a hard read on my suit's power use rather than having to decided whether I am shooting or going to run the suit.  Going '5 hours of suit power left' . . . then get into a heavy firefight and discover you have '2 hours of suit power left,' losing 2 hours to weapons use would mess with your plans.

fails to account for the fact there's no inbuilt power generation and the battery life really kinda stinks.

That said, to ME, a "Commando" operation is the one where the enemy realizes they're under attack because half the motor pool is on fire, the ready squad/CQ discovers half of Alpha Company are lying in bed with their throats cut, Bravo company discovers the armed claymores when they meet them coming out of the barracks, The battalion CP is also on fire, and the commander's jeep is missing along with all the pogie bait, but nobody's got time to look for it because whatever's not on fire has been rigged with explosives and more of your reaction team are bleeding out in the bathroom, than ready to respond.

You know, knife, silenced pistol, and timed explosives work, not rambo-with-an-M-60 work.  So maybe a modular battery system or hotswappable powerpacks that don't weigh the earth, on a PAL suit with excellent camouflage, ecm, and steathing systems.

With HANDS so you can steal the commander's jeep for your getaway.  Commando work is more inflicting psychological trauma on the enemy than practical destruction of assets-you want them stunned, shocked, alarmed and panicked because you hit them where they were 'safe' and did more damage than your weight would indicate, because the core of Commando ops, is that you're being a disgraceful, dishonorable, nasty dirty cheater.  Things like having the HQ's latrines go Kaboooooom and suchlike.
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Re: BA Spec Ops/Commandos
« Reply #29 on: 24 March 2023, 13:31:26 »
Death Commandos might use Ying Long suits with their mimetic armor.


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