BA Spec Ops/Commandos

[Retry]

Speed takes up a lot of Mass, a lot more than Jumping.  With a focus on Speed AND Jumping, there won't be a lot left for things like weaponry.

Still, so long as one isn't expecting to face off against Tanks, 'Mechs, or even ProtoMechs, you should mostly be fine.

Hence the importance of optimizing behind enemy lines instead of throwing firepower at the front.  The target of these types of infiltration suits should be high-value targets that preferably don't shoot back, like munitions dumps, formation commanders, high-value personnel (Technicians), strategic infrastructure...

If duking it out with 'Mechs is part of the mission set, you don't want a Spec Ops suit, you want an Elemental/ IS Standard.

[idea weenie]

I know someone said energy weapon so they did not have to carry ammo, but a energy weapon on BA still has to deal with 'ammo' since they do not have a means of generating power.  I would, as a tactical constraint for the design, RATHER have non-energy ammo because then I have a hard read on my suit's power use rather than having to decided whether I am shooting or going to run the suit.  Going '5 hours of suit power left' . . . then get into a heavy firefight and discover you have '2 hours of suit power left,' losing 2 hours to weapons use would mess with your plans.

The main goal with using energy weapons is that your ammo supply and power supply are the same thing.  You only need to bring along one recharger, instead of a recharger and lots of ammo.  For using up battery capacity, that is what the weapon mount batteries are for.  You recharge them when you have spare capacity, instead of setting them to auto-charge from your BA's power supply.

Plugging in your Exoskeleton while in the enemy base is considered cheating, and strongly encouraged.

[Cannonshop]

The main goal with using energy weapons is that your ammo supply and power supply are the same thing.  You only need to bring along one recharger, instead of a recharger and lots of ammo.  For using up battery capacity, that is what the weapon mount batteries are for.  You recharge them when you have spare capacity, instead of setting them to auto-charge from your BA's power supply.

Plugging in your Exoskeleton while in the enemy base is considered cheating, and strongly encouraged.

but batteries are FINITE, so you're bringing an additional charger...but now you're taxing it twice as much (or more).

aren't you?

I mean, entropy still exists and there are still only a finite number of hours in the day...

Advantages of ammunition:  It 'holds its charge' until you use it.

Disadvantage: once you use it, it's gone.

Advantage of energy: it can charge off the same gear.

Disadvantage: It has to charge off the same gear, leading to a single point of failure for both suits, and weapons.

this might boil down to what your mission actually IS, how often you expect to use your weapons, how often you have to run your suits, how much 'break time' between sorties...and maybe how many power packs or battries you're lugging or how many chargers you happen to have available for your team.

heck, it might even require considering what KIND of chargers you're using (Solar, Kinetic, fusion, fission...) or the duration of your mission/missions. (*in and out quick has different NEEDS than sustained guerilla campaign or LRRP activity.)

how OFTEN do you expect to be in combat? how far are you expecting to travel unsupported?  will there even BE time to put everything on the charger, or are you going to have to prioritize?

I think there might actually be a good reason to have a highly modular suit architecture here-there isn't a single weapon good for all the missions a "commando" might be doing, or need to do, so configurable is probably better than "trying to do it all with one type of hardware".

[idea weenie]

but batteries are FINITE, so you're bringing an additional charger...but now you're taxing it twice as much (or more).

aren't you?

I mean, entropy still exists and there are still only a finite number of hours in the day...

Advantages of ammunition:  It 'holds its charge' until you use it.

Disadvantage: once you use it, it's gone.

Advantage of energy: it can charge off the same gear.

Disadvantage: It has to charge off the same gear, leading to a single point of failure for both suits, and weapons.

this might boil down to what your mission actually IS, how often you expect to use your weapons, how often you have to run your suits, how much 'break time' between sorties...and maybe how many power packs or battries you're lugging or how many chargers you happen to have available for your team.

heck, it might even require considering what KIND of chargers you're using (Solar, Kinetic, fusion, fission...) or the duration of your mission/missions. (*in and out quick has different NEEDS than sustained guerilla campaign or LRRP activity.)

how OFTEN do you expect to be in combat? how far are you expecting to travel unsupported?  will there even BE time to put everything on the charger, or are you going to have to prioritize?

I think there might actually be a good reason to have a highly modular suit architecture here-there isn't a single weapon good for all the missions a "commando" might be doing, or need to do, so configurable is probably better than "trying to do it all with one type of hardware".

Completely true.  The existing setup requires PA or Exoskeletons, so I can't bring along a Protomech or other fusion-powered unit to provide free electricity.  This means I need deployed batteries, rechargers, or something similar.

From there if expecting combat, we have to calculate which provides the most damage per kg, laser energy via batteries or bullets.  The laser might be lower damage per kg, but it is one less thing for my quartermasters to worry about, and provides flexibility.  If I am worried the recharger being one point of failure, then I might bring along a second recharger.  Considering what happens to BA without a recharger, this should be standard.  it also means that if I don't need laser energy, the recharger that was brought along for ammo supply can also be used to recharge my BA suits.

Environments will affect this decision as well, as some environments might be better for slugthrowers than energy.

Mission equipment would likely be set up beforehand with a full refit of the PA as needed.  So base mass of 400 kg, and back at the base the technicians modify the suits according to the expected mission plus potential issues.  A similar set of choices is made for additional mission gear.  For example if working vs a low-tech force then a fusion recharger is a great idea as they only mass 40 kg.  But if the opponent has access to a Neutrino sensor, then that fusion recharger is basically a beacon saying 'we are here'.

[Cannonshop]

Completely true.  The existing setup requires PA or Exoskeletons, so I can't bring along a Protomech or other fusion-powered unit to provide free electricity.  This means I need deployed batteries, rechargers, or something similar.

From there if expecting combat, we have to calculate which provides the most damage per kg, laser energy via batteries or bullets.  The laser might be lower damage per kg, but it is one less thing for my quartermasters to worry about, and provides flexibility.  If I am worried the recharger being one point of failure, then I might bring along a second recharger.  Considering what happens to BA without a recharger, this should be standard.  it also means that if I don't need laser energy, the recharger that was brought along for ammo supply can also be used to recharge my BA suits.

Environments will affect this decision as well, as some environments might be better for slugthrowers than energy.

Mission equipment would likely be set up beforehand with a full refit of the PA as needed.  So base mass of 400 kg, and back at the base the technicians modify the suits according to the expected mission plus potential issues.  A similar set of choices is made for additional mission gear.  For example if working vs a low-tech force then a fusion recharger is a great idea as they only mass 40 kg.  But if the opponent has access to a Neutrino sensor, then that fusion recharger is basically a beacon saying 'we are here'.

This kinda circles back to my original statement-because there really isn't a single perfect design for commando ops, the category itself is so wide that everything from a nighthawk to a Gnome could be suitable for a given mission, but none of them are suitable for ALL the missions.

The problem being that 'Commando operations' are the inverse of "Regular Military Missions" or "Conventional Warfare".

A six man team of sappers trained in infiltration and stealth can do the damage of a conventional battalion assault, if they're sneaky enough and have time to do it, and do so without needing exoskeletons or powered armor, Or you can run into a situation where you need armor and jump/glide capability (Kage), or a walking mini-tank (Gnome).

The profile for the general category of Commando operations is WIDE.  The choices shown here mainly show what the individual PLAYERS think such a role would be...and not everyone tends to agree.

[Calimehter]

An anecdote:

Ages ago we did an RPG mini-campaign around a commando-style infiltration and destruction mission.  Was probably MW2 or MW3 rules.  One of our number had a Kage Suit and training for it.  We found that he spent most of his time outside the suit for the kinds of ops we were doing . . . but every so often, the heavy armor and jump ability were a godsend when you hit those 10-20% of the time when you had to go "noisy" in a spot to complete your mission.

The wilderness area on that mission was also inhabited by something resembling the unholy offspring of a Jurassic Park velociraptor and a lawn mower, so it was pretty handy for those phases of the mission too.

[OatsAndHall]

Infiltration suits would fit the bill for the majority of the ops I'm thinking of. But, light BA like Nighthawks would improve the success of the missions should things so go sideways. Should they run afoul of a mech, they have a little bit of armor to absorb punishment and the mobility to GTFO.

[Colt Ward]

Should they run afoul of a mech, they have a little bit of armor to absorb punishment and the mobility to GTFO.

This was mostly what I was thinking- they have more mobility than troops on foot and would be more quiet than most vehicles over all terrain plus the ability to carry more mission equipment.  Explosives, remote recon uplinks, or even carrying in munitions for guerillas if needing to link up.

If you are talking about your commandos using BA of any sort you are expecting a harder target- and have perhaps tasked them more in a pathfinder role . . . or they need that amount of hardware to reach the headhunter mission.  It is more of a waste to send a commando team after a objective w/o BA and they not return without achieving the objective than it is to send commandos with BA and not really need the capabilities.

[OatsAndHall]

This was mostly what I was thinking- they have more mobility than troops on foot and would be more quiet than most vehicles over all terrain plus the ability to carry more mission equipment.  Explosives, remote recon uplinks, or even carrying in munitions for guerillas if needing to link up.

If you are talking about your commandos using BA of any sort you are expecting a harder target- and have perhaps tasked them more in a pathfinder role . . . or they need that amount of hardware to reach the headhunter mission.  It is more of a waste to send a commando team after a objective w/o BA and they not return without achieving the objective than it is to send commandos with BA and not really need the capabilities.

Here is an example of an op I was thinking about:

Two four man squad of Nighthawks and two sniper teams.
Night time, VTOL ingress to a point 10 kilometers out from a guarded weapons/supply depot.
Ground movement to the target, no jumping.
Conduct a reconnaissance scan of the depot, pick out high priority targets. They'll have a good idea of what they're dealing with ahead of time but a quick peek will give them a better idea.   
Infiltrate the depot quietly. Should contact be made with unarmored opsforce (i.e. infantry) handle it quietly. Either with a vibro blade or a silenced sub gun.
In two man teams, place explosives at areas deemed as high priority. Each commando in a pair will be able to set off the explosives they've been given. Complete communication silence.
Egress from the target in pairs, the squads meeting at a predetermined point. Once everyone is accounted for, launch a flare and set off the explosives. If a flares aren't shot at a predetermined time, set off the explosives.  The sniper teams will support the egress.
Should hard contact be made, drop the explosives, jump and set them off as a diversion. A single detonated charge before the predetermined rendezvous/time is the signal for everyone to do the same. Again, the sniper teams will provide overwatch support.

[Lanceman]

Folks sleeping on the Angerona and it's Recon variant.

[Colt Ward]

Well, a few of the 'newer' suits have been left out or overlooked so it is not alone.

To be honest, the newer stuff is probably better- Kobold does recon right?  Spectre . . .

[Cannonshop]

Well, a few of the 'newer' suits have been left out or overlooked so it is not alone.

To be honest, the newer stuff is probably better- Kobold does recon right?  Spectre . . .

'
I think a lot of it has to do with what people actually have some experience running, and the older designs or less faction-niche designs (or less faction specific designs) probably have more players that have USED them in game.

Kobold, for example, is (iirc) a Free Rassalhague design that somehow missed most of the late invasion/Jihad actions and wasn't in some way overpowering in a stand up fight.

thus getting less attention since it didn't feature heavily in either the fiction, or in scenarios on the table.

[Colt Ward]

Kobold also ended up as a IIC IIRC, but my point was basically post-Civil War what suits would qualify for recon?  We discussed the ones during and before the Civil War-

GDL Scout
Nighthawk
Tornado
Purifier (still a spotter vs recon IMO)
Kage
Achelius
Infiltrator Mk II

I threw out Void- the Kage replacement- and someone else mentioned the later Spectre . . . but there were others after that time, which is why in response to the Angerona I brought up the Kobold & it's variants.  The Capellan's Trinity armor, whatever Chinese name it was given, would not work b/c it had Mimetic like the Purifier IIRC.

[Daryk]

I gave this some thought a LONG time ago... 

[Jellico]

I have been aggressively not pointing to the Kobold (a modified Kage) for a few days now. The Kobold IIC ticks a lot of the requirements listed above. The Constable ticks a lot of boxes too.

That said, my first requirements is do you want these suits to be able to open a door, which means at least one glove. Then, will it fall through the floor of an average building. Are we fighting at a human scale or fighting against machines.

[OatsAndHall]

I have been aggressively not pointing to the Kobold (a modified Kage) for a few days now. The Kobold IIC ticks a lot of the requirements listed above. The Constable ticks a lot of boxes too.

That said, my first requirements is do you want these suits to be able to open a door, which means at least one glove. Then, will it fall through the floor of an average building. Are we fighting at a human scale or fighting against machines.

They're going to bug out if they're engaged by anything heavier than standard infantry. Even then, a heavy fire fight means the clandestine nature of the mission is compromised and they'll need to make an exit.

[Colt Ward]

Yes and no . . . sometimes commando operations are the tip of the spear, such as taking bridges that need to be held for a rapid advance or a port before it can be damaged by spoilsport charges.

Also consider headhunter Elementals . . . sometimes they use stripped down suits for endurance sneaking into the rear, other times they are dropped right on top of a defensive position to fight their way inside bunkers and kill people like Marshall Bryan.

[OatsAndHall]

Yes and no . . . sometimes commando operations are the tip of the spear, such as taking bridges that need to be held for a rapid advance or a port before it can be damaged by spoilsport charges.

Also consider headhunter Elementals . . . sometimes they use stripped down suits for endurance sneaking into the rear, other times they are dropped right on top of a defensive position to fight their way inside bunkers and kill people like Marshall Bryan.

IMO, you'd send a much larger force of heavier BA if they were tasked to actually hold a bridge. Particularly if the mission parameters included defending it against mechs. And, that would be a sketchy proposition as is. A SEAL team wouldn't be asked to hold a bridge if it was potentially defended by a platoon of tanks and company of mechanized infantry. Blow it up, yes. Take and defend it, not so much.

[Colt Ward]

Except in certain circles, commando is a role rather than a size- FREX, a whole Battalion of Infiltrator II made a covert drop to try to get into the Cave to kill George Hasek during the Civil War.

It is not the first objective bridge you would do it for but rather the 2nd or 3rd.  The point being to remove any demo charges as well as guards . . . think of the fake MPs in . . . old Battle of the Buldge?  They removed the guards, NERF'd the demo, misdirected large units, wiped out small detachments, and handed the bridge over to their own side's advancing troops.

[Daryk]

I thought that unit was regular troopers with American uniforms?

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure they were some sort of commandos . . . not that the movie is that accurate, just using it as an example.  Really digging into IRL examples would require getting into PMs perhaps.

[Daryk]

Anything closer than 60 years ago would probably invoke rule 4...

[Natasha Kerensky]

Wiki “Operation Greif”.

[Minemech]

 There seems to be a good number of misunderstandings here. Regular units are used in covert operations all the time in Battletech, the 13th Marik Militia was a line unit that specialized in them to give one example. I could easily see heavy units like Phalanxes being dropped in advance with line units to preposition an anvil and set up ambush positions as well as for area denial. That anvil would not need to fight for a protracted period, just simply to prevent the enemy unit from rallying.

[Martius]

I like the Spectre a lot for this kind of Mission. Sadly it lacks a hand but the jump boosters are IMO a lot more useful than the jumpjets other designs have. It still can clear obstacles but without some rockets boosting it around.

[OatsAndHall]

IMO, it's difficult to apply current or past military spec ops to this scenario as small groups of infantry and/or BA lack the ability to directly confront a mech without support of some kind.

[Colt Ward]

Same deal IRL for tanks most of their existence?

Really you have to break it down to what the missions might be-

Snoop & Scoot
Headhunter
Strategic attacks
Seizures

One of the other things to come up in this target is folks talking about ingress . . . but very little mention about egress.

Or even the ability to sneak BA through customs unlike military vehicles or mechs.  I can send a platoon of battle armor on a cargo dropper and infiltrate the operators to some regional HQ world and try a surprise attack on the regional HQ/staff.  Blow facilities, gun down staff, and then get out of the AO, destroy the suits- or go bury them in a cache for future use- and exfil as tourists, etc.

Which would be easier than it would be to get a combat transport in range, hot drop a mech or four, HOPE they can fight their way close enough to strike the target, self-destruct the mechs if extracting the asset is not possible, and HOPEFULLY recover the mechwarriors (who are not going to be great sneaks, usually).

[OatsAndHall]

Same deal IRL for tanks most of their existence?

Really you have to break it down to what the missions might be-

Snoop & Scoot
Headhunter
Strategic attacks
Seizures

One of the other things to come up in this target is folks talking about ingress . . . but very little mention about egress.

Or even the ability to sneak BA through customs unlike military vehicles or mechs.  I can send a platoon of battle armor on a cargo dropper and infiltrate the operators to some regional HQ world and try a surprise attack on the regional HQ/staff.  Blow facilities, gun down staff, and then get out of the AO, destroy the suits- or go bury them in a cache for future use- and exfil as tourists, etc.

Which would be easier than it would be to get a combat transport in range, hot drop a mech or four, HOPE they can fight their way close enough to strike the target, self-destruct the mechs if extracting the asset is not possible, and HOPEFULLY recover the mechwarriors (who are not going to be great sneaks, usually).

Yes and no when it comes to tanks. There's plenty of infantry-based anti-armor weapons available that'll take out a tank: a WW2 bazooka could hurt/killer a Tiger if they caught them on their side or rear armor. We're seeing a lot of infantry anti-armor advancements play their way out in the Ukraine: Javelins, suicide drones, etc.. So, a SEAL team armed with a few LAWS (Javelins are a bit heavy) could hold their own for a little while against armor. At least long enough to get the hell out of a situation.

In the BT universe, we don't have a one-punch weapon available to infantry or BA.  A large squad of infantry or BA can do some damage to a mech with direct fire but it takes numbers and luck. Swarming is certainly a possibility but you're still probably looking at disabling a mech versus destroying it. And, that makes for a nasty egress.

Yes, egress is more important than egress. Getting in is almost always easier than getting out. An ingress probably only needs a Plan A and a Plan B while an egress needs Plan A-Z, lol.

[Colt Ward]

LAWs do not do crap to the armor of their time, let alone now.  The Javelin was actually a replacement for the Dragon not the LAW, and really came to use in the last 10 years or so.

Still, the equivalent going against mechs is the 2 or 12 . . . so yeah, number of shots & luck- or taking the leg.

But it again comes down to situation . . . 60%-70% of combat in BT takes place off screen with infantry & armor duking it out while mechs are found at the point of decision.  Armor & infantry are typically going to be the guards, and IF mechs are there it will be lights & meds- which a squad or two of SRM packing (or even LRR, MRR, MagShot, APGauss have a good shot).

[OatsAndHall]

LAWs do not do crap to the armor of their time, let alone now.  The Javelin was actually a replacement for the Dragon not the LAW, and really came to use in the last 10 years or so.

Still, the equivalent going against mechs is the 2 or 12 . . . so yeah, number of shots & luck- or taking the leg.

But it again comes down to situation . . . 60%-70% of combat in BT takes place off screen with infantry & armor duking it out while mechs are found at the point of decision.  Armor & infantry are typically going to be the guards, and IF mechs are there it will be lights & meds- which a squad or two of SRM packing (or even LRR, MRR, MagShot, APGauss have a good shot).

Yeah, LAWS weren't the most effective anti-armor weapon. But, they could disable or kill a tank if the infantry took the right shot (rear armor or tracks). The Javelin and Dragon can't handle the front armor of most MBTs: the Javelin's arched approach takes it through the top armor of the tank. This is also brings up an interesting point; BT doesn't have a true fire-and-forget missile option.