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Author Topic: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll  (Read 2007 times)

OatsAndHall

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Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« on: 07 October 2022, 12:41:20 »
Do you guys roll with a possible center torso crit or a floating crit (re-roll the location) on a "2" Location Roll?

We use the floating crit as a) it spices things up and b) center torso crits can be crippling; gyro and engine hits can wreck a unit.

abou

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #1 on: 07 October 2022, 13:27:15 »
In general, floating crit rules. It can be both more dangerous or less lethal, but adds more excitement to the game.

It has happened twice that a floating crit ended up with a head shot and cockpit crit.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #2 on: 07 October 2022, 14:09:02 »
In general, floating crit rules. It can be both more dangerous or less lethal, but adds more excitement to the game.

It has happened twice that a floating crit ended up with a head shot and cockpit crit.

There has been several discussion via social media about this topic. I'm surprised at the number of people who aren't using floating crit rules.. One gyro crit early in the game really messes stuff up.

Grizzly

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #3 on: 07 October 2022, 14:49:52 »
I prefer to play without floating crit. It is a great equalizer against clan mechs and energy-only mechs in general.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #4 on: 07 October 2022, 14:51:50 »
IME, focusing on the CT encourages mass crit seeking: LBX and rotary ACs, streak SRMs, etc.. You roll a "2" and you have large chance of hitting a gyro or a engine.

monbvol

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #5 on: 07 October 2022, 15:53:27 »
Floating crit.  I find it is more realistic in that it reasonably models that the weak points really are the joints/limbs.

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #6 on: 07 October 2022, 15:54:55 »
We mostly use CT crits for simplicity for the time being, though I use floating crits in MegaMek and several folks at my local place have considered introducing it to our regular ruleset.
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House Davie Merc

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #7 on: 07 October 2022, 18:50:18 »
Most local groups are using the center torso for a 2 .

I like the IDEA of the floating crit , but when you are using it
for succession war era games certain popular designs start to
disappear from play .

The designs with torso bombs already have a serious issue that can
be somewhat mitigated by the players actions .  Making crits float removes
some of  that ability to mitigate the risk .
After a game or 3 with floating crits you would be surprised at how many
popular mechs no longer grace the table .

Sartris

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #8 on: 07 October 2022, 18:55:35 »
It’s probably one of the top optional rules people either think should be standard or forget it’s not

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #9 on: 07 October 2022, 21:22:16 »
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/ground-combat/floating-criticals-do-you-use-them/
(For posterity, I’m not reprimanding)
I thought that thread was a lot longer. But it seems fairly common like Sartris said. I know I use it even when I teach classic and when I play in MegaMek
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Charistoph

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #10 on: 08 October 2022, 02:01:50 »
We use it in our local group as a standard thing.  Yeah, it really adds to the swing, because it could just as easily be a Hip Actuator, an Arm Weapon, or a Marauder's Torso Bomb instead of a Gyro or Engine Hit.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that the Torso the 2 hits is also the most likely location you're going to roll anyway on a 2D6.
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Weirdo

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #11 on: 08 October 2022, 02:58:23 »
Floater all day, every day.
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garhkal

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #12 on: 09 October 2022, 01:10:06 »
Majority of the time games i run, are pick ups, or grinder like ones, so regular center torso tac.  Not floating.
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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #13 on: 09 October 2022, 10:23:04 »
I use CT crits almost exclusively. Easier that way.
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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #14 on: 09 October 2022, 15:35:41 »
It’s probably one of the top optional rules people either think should be standard or forget it’s not

Yeah, this.  I've played with and without it and I find with to be much more interesting.  Not only does it make the game more dynamic, it also makes the chance of losing a mech to a freak AC 2 shot before they can get into range to do anything that much less common.
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DevianID

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #15 on: 13 October 2022, 00:24:13 »
I much prefer CT crit.  I always like to remind that floating crits may seem 'flavorful' but they have a big impact on meta balance.  Floating crits mean that ammo-carrying mechs are worse, and all energy fully packed zombie mechs are better.  I believe all energy fully packed zombie mechs are already the best, so using floating crits (which the zombie mech ignores most of the time thanks to so many redundant heat sink crits) even more unfairly punishes ammo carrying or non-crit packed mechs.

CT crits ruin all mechs equally with a gyro hit, so you can disable a zombie mech as easy as a ammo carrying/less optimized mech.  If floating crits didnt mess with meta balance and player agency so much I would use them, but its a really bad rule for balance and unit diversity.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #16 on: 13 October 2022, 07:46:45 »
I much prefer CT crit.  I always like to remind that floating crits may seem 'flavorful' but they have a big impact on meta balance.  Floating crits mean that ammo-carrying mechs are worse, and all energy fully packed zombie mechs are better.  I believe all energy fully packed zombie mechs are already the best, so using floating crits (which the zombie mech ignores most of the time thanks to so many redundant heat sink crits) even more unfairly punishes ammo carrying or non-crit packed mechs.

CT crits ruin all mechs equally with a gyro hit, so you can disable a zombie mech as easy as a ammo carrying/less optimized mech.  If floating crits didnt mess with meta balance and player agency so much I would use them, but its a really bad rule for balance and unit diversity.

Without the floating crit rule, we see less diversity. Everyone fields laser boats with the arms and side torsos packed.
« Last Edit: 13 October 2022, 09:30:18 by OatsAndHall »

pokefan548

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #17 on: 13 October 2022, 07:51:44 »
I much prefer CT crit.  I always like to remind that floating crits may seem 'flavorful' but they have a big impact on meta balance.  Floating crits mean that ammo-carrying mechs are worse, and all energy fully packed zombie mechs are better.  I believe all energy fully packed zombie mechs are already the best, so using floating crits (which the zombie mech ignores most of the time thanks to so many redundant heat sink crits) even more unfairly punishes ammo carrying or non-crit packed mechs.

CT crits ruin all mechs equally with a gyro hit, so you can disable a zombie mech as easy as a ammo carrying/less optimized mech.  If floating crits didnt mess with meta balance and player agency so much I would use them, but its a really bad rule for balance and unit diversity.
I say that, but at a decent angle CT crits turn into LT or RT crits- which are often full of ammo. That's how I once had an Urbie one-tap an almost completely fresh Thunderbolt.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #18 on: 13 October 2022, 07:58:51 »
I've said in other threads and will say it here. Floaters!

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #19 on: 13 October 2022, 08:38:02 »
Floating. It makes more sense in my mind that *any* location might have an armor weakness, not just the torso.
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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #20 on: 13 October 2022, 10:01:20 »
No floaters . . . the chance of the CT being crit on the front & back chart is what offsets it's ability to have the thickest armor.

It also negates the maneuver option of pushing a mech into the right or left arc if that torso is open/thing with a crit-seeking weapon against a XL, GR, or ammo side torso.
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monbvol

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #21 on: 13 October 2022, 10:01:52 »
I much prefer CT crit.  I always like to remind that floating crits may seem 'flavorful' but they have a big impact on meta balance.  Floating crits mean that ammo-carrying mechs are worse, and all energy fully packed zombie mechs are better.  I believe all energy fully packed zombie mechs are already the best, so using floating crits (which the zombie mech ignores most of the time thanks to so many redundant heat sink crits) even more unfairly punishes ammo carrying or non-crit packed mechs.

CT crits ruin all mechs equally with a gyro hit, so you can disable a zombie mech as easy as a ammo carrying/less optimized mech.  If floating crits didnt mess with meta balance and player agency so much I would use them, but its a really bad rule for balance and unit diversity.

Actually I ran the probabilities to compare what was more likely between a golden BB taking out a gyro and if by some combination of prior critical hits there was still structure left in an arm but all actuators and weapons were already removed as valid options and the only possible crit left was an ammo bin.

The ammo bin was actually safer under floating crits than the gyro was under standard.

I may have to run the calculations for legs.

Torsos could get complicated because as already mentioned just repositioning to the right spot can deliver non-floating criticals.

While I do have to wait until I get home to pull up the final calculations some items to consider why it worked out that way:

A critical roll of 12 will just sever limbs and heads without detonating the remaining ammo.

The floating critical still needs to resolve to a particular location.  Once this is correctly factored in as much as it makes hitting the ammo in the arm possible in the first place it makes it such a slim probability that it actually improves durability overall as these are now crits that are not going to the engine or gyro.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #22 on: 13 October 2022, 10:17:52 »
Actually I ran the probabilities to compare what was more likely between a golden BB taking out a gyro and if by some combination of prior critical hits there was still structure left in an arm but all actuators and weapons were already removed as valid options and the only possible crit left was an ammo bin.

The ammo bin was actually safer under floating crits than the gyro was under standard.

I may have to run the calculations for legs.

Torsos could get complicated because as already mentioned just repositioning to the right spot can deliver non-floating criticals.

While I do have to wait until I get home to pull up the final calculations some items to consider why it worked out that way:

A critical roll of 12 will just sever limbs and heads without detonating the remaining ammo.

The floating critical still needs to resolve to a particular location.  Once this is correctly factored in as much as it makes hitting the ammo in the arm possible in the first place it makes it such a slim probability that it actually improves durability overall as these are now crits that are not going to the engine or gyro.

So much this. Take a look at a Timber Wolf Prime: you have a 27% chance of hitting a gyro if your opponent pulls a crit with CT rules. You have a 3.7% chance of hitting the ammo bins if you use floating crit rules (17% chance of hitting RT * a 22% chance hitting the ammo in the RT).

Charistoph

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #23 on: 13 October 2022, 12:04:09 »
I say that, but at a decent angle CT crits turn into LT or RT crits- which are often full of ammo. That's how I once had an Urbie one-tap an almost completely fresh Thunderbolt.

Not like it matters with some Thunderbolt builds.  Ammo filling up the empty slots in the CT doesn't necessarily make it any easier to turn to fireworks by going for a side-Crit.
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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #24 on: 13 October 2022, 21:55:39 »
I toggle the floating crit rule when I play some one-offs in MegaMek, but in real-life games, we tend to default to the CT crits  . . . more from muscle memory than any big opinions one way or another as to which is 'best'.

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #25 on: 13 October 2022, 22:11:11 »
So much this. Take a look at a Timber Wolf Prime: you have a 27% chance of hitting a gyro if your opponent pulls a crit with CT rules. You have a 3.7% chance of hitting the ammo bins if you use floating crit rules (17% chance of hitting RT * a 22% chance hitting the ammo in the RT).

I feel like your math is off.
RT = 5/36 = 14% * 22% = 3%
Gyro = 4/11 = 36%
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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #26 on: 14 October 2022, 04:28:23 »
It makes the light machine gun array 4 disportionatly deadly .  Say you roll a 2 and 3 one point hits with criticals at the same location . So a leg with 3 possible crits or head with 3 possibe crits . It is ment for a fast hover to approach on the left or right side to either at best get 3 consousness checks on the head . Or right or left torso hit with a greater chance of an ammo explosion .  So the machine gun array goes to a poor weapon to render the pilot unconscious with standard facing torso hit to a crippling crit seeking monster .

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #27 on: 14 October 2022, 07:23:08 »
I feel like your math is off.
RT = 5/36 = 14% * 22% = 3%
Gyro = 4/11 = 36%

Only 2 of 9 crit spaces have ammo in the RT of the Prime. But you're right, there are 4 gyro spaces out of 11 in the CT.

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #28 on: 14 October 2022, 09:00:39 »
We've used Floating Crit since it was intro'd. More fun.

monbvol

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #29 on: 14 October 2022, 10:29:18 »
I feel like your math is off.
RT = 5/36 = 14% * 22% = 3%
Gyro = 4/11 = 36%

The math of how it really works out does depend on if the two critical slots are free or not and how strict to the rules of determining critical hits one is being.

Going super strict according to the rules of how one is supposed to resolve critical hits(also works if there are no roll again locations):

Since the Center Torso is two sections and the Gyro occupies 3 in the first section that is a 1/4 probability total(1/2 for first section *1/2 for how much of that section the gyro occupies.  Since one of four lies in the second section we add a 1/12 probability.  So it would be about a 1/3 total probability.

Now yes if there is one or two roll again results you can argue that effectively the probabilities do change and I won't actually put up that much of a fight because the actual final probability does not actually change as it has to land on a gyro location not enigne, something else that can be critically hit, or Roll Again but for the sake of argument it is close enough to fudge and we often do take short cuts in such scenarios.

In the specific case of the Timber Wolf Prime it only has one Roll Again slot in the Center Torso.

So it's close enough probability would be 1/4+1/10 or 35%.

Now the Right Torso of the Timber Wolf Prime and it's ammunition there from the Front/Back by that same consideration though but adds in that the floating critical must also land on the Right Torso. So 5/36*1/4 or a whopping 3.47222...% chance.

I knew Torso math would get interesting but didn't think it would be that interesting.