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Author Topic: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll  (Read 4213 times)

Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #90 on: 06 December 2022, 19:45:01 »
There are MANY TacOps rules more complicated than that... I can't really make a call there...  ^-^

Cannonshop

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #91 on: 07 December 2022, 00:18:55 »
I believe that's the point: people find floating crits fun but not especially meaningful to the overall metagame.

Certainly much faster and easier to use than some TacOps rules.

TacOps got two things:

1. it was where they dumped Artillery and fire rules, along with minefields.

2.  It's where the previously untested rules options that didn't get integrated from Maxtech, Unbound and Tactical Handbook went (along with some of the really awkward stuff from Mechforce UK,  White Dwarf Magazine and BAttletechnology magazine-as in the bits that had a vocal fanbase but weren't considered for being integrated into tourney rules.)

Which means the good and the bad, the streamlined, AND the awkward.

TBH, the influence on tactics IS minimal for most players, but I've noticed a trend with floating crits in terms of how the discussion goes down: you either REALLY like them, or You DON'T like them.

and I suspect it has more to do with your general playing experience.  When my groups goofed around with the concept, games took longer and devolved to stationary dice-rolling contests more frequently...but!!!

That's not true for everyone.  A lot of our playing experience is influenced by...our playing experiences, and the groups we play WITH.

0
or at least, where we play most frequently.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #92 on: 07 December 2022, 11:57:50 »
TacOps got two things:

1. it was where they dumped Artillery and fire rules, along with minefields.

2.  It's where the previously untested rules options that didn't get integrated from Maxtech, Unbound and Tactical Handbook went (along with some of the really awkward stuff from Mechforce UK,  White Dwarf Magazine and BAttletechnology magazine-as in the bits that had a vocal fanbase but weren't considered for being integrated into tourney rules.)

Which means the good and the bad, the streamlined, AND the awkward.

TBH, the influence on tactics IS minimal for most players, but I've noticed a trend with floating crits in terms of how the discussion goes down: you either REALLY like them, or You DON'T like them.

and I suspect it has more to do with your general playing experience.  When my groups goofed around with the concept, games took longer and devolved to stationary dice-rolling contests more frequently...but!!!

That's not true for everyone.  A lot of our playing experience is influenced by...our playing experiences, and the groups we play WITH.

0
or at least, where we play most frequently.

We had issues with people planting themselves and playing with Floating Crits made that easier. With that being said, I don't think it was the root of the issue. A lot of players struggle to learn how to move and put themselves in an advantageous position with respect to the modifiers. Many have gotten better at it but there's still a learning curve as they're bringing a lot of jumpers to the table. I was guilty of the same thing until recently; I figured out how effective an 7/11 or 8/12 mover can be on many maps. I've been having a whole lot of fun with the Mongoose 66B as of late; run straight at someone for a minimum of 10 hexes, smack 'em with the ER LL, two MLs,  a SL and bug out.

Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #93 on: 07 December 2022, 20:13:44 »
Yep, that's exactly how you play a design like that!  :thumbsup:

DevianID

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #94 on: 08 December 2022, 06:09:54 »
The reason I lead with math, specifically math that shows how floating crits lower lethality, was because of some of the anecdotal stories we just heard.  Like, the ice ferret that got blasted and had floatimg crits and regular cruts everywhere.  If im understanding his example right, instead of the CT getting all those crits, like 3+ crits to the right torso in a float, they all went various places and it didnt die.  3+ crits to the CT though should have been at least as bad as the 2 engine crits the player described.  Also, a mention of 2 crits to the hip and lower could be replaced with 2 crits to the gyro if they didnt float...  Anecdotal stories are bad for things like this.

As an aside, if people cant see a gameplay difference they probably arnt paying attention.  Some homework if you actually care about the topic would be to see where those floating crits go versus just playing straight.  So when that arm gets a crit, keep a separate tally on the mech and compare results through the night.

For my anecdotal story, we played a game on megamek and forget to turn floating crits on as that's the standard for the group.  My opponent had heavy mechs like an awesome and battlemaster and my LRMs causing TACs ruined him way faster then normal.  An early gyro or double engine crit took that mech out of the fight, so I backed up and focused on the next.  It should have been a lot closer as usually those crits on the awesome don't hit gyros but heat sinks.  So it was crazy noticable.
« Last Edit: 08 December 2022, 06:15:35 by DevianID »

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #95 on: 08 December 2022, 10:18:47 »
Yep, that's exactly how you play a design like that!  :thumbsup:

Agreed; I've had a blast playing with lights without jump jets. I've gotten so much better at moving tactically without jumping. And, my modifiers have been great because of it. Funny thing; both of my groups ignore the lights I field for the first couple of rounds. I do up to 40 damage to a mech before they'll start coordinating fire on them.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #96 on: 08 December 2022, 10:32:48 »
As an aside, if people cant see a gameplay difference they probably arnt paying attention.

I think it's less that people aren't seeing a difference and more that they don't consider that difference significant enough to change their tactics significantly.
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Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #97 on: 08 December 2022, 18:45:17 »
I would characterize that as people simply not playing ENOUGH rather than "not paying attention".... Stats work like that...  ^-^

monbvol

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #98 on: 08 December 2022, 19:15:16 »
In this case it is more that the probabilities are being shifted in unconventional ways that are making the overall difference and result in it being such a slim margin of something that is a slim margin in the first place ending in no real overall difference.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #99 on: 14 December 2022, 11:21:33 »
Floating crits do add some fun flavor to the game at times.  They can heavily influence the game play without catastrophically damaging a unit either. Especially when dealing with Clan Omnis; randomly mauling an arm with a floating crit puts many Clan Omnis in a bad situation.

Cannonshop

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #100 on: 16 December 2022, 08:27:25 »
I would characterize that as people simply not playing ENOUGH rather than "not paying attention".... Stats work like that...  ^-^

with sufficient flogging, you can make statistics say ANYTHING YOU WANT.

That said, the real difference is how complex you want each turn of play to get before the fight becomes decisive.  Floating Crits makes it take longer to resolve, just on the added time for the additional rolls, never mind results averaging.

IOW if you play enough, you end up in one of two camps: either wanting engagements to get decisive and end quickly, or wanting to stretch it out in hopes of eking out a win.  Both have their positive aspects, both have negative aspects.  It's all on your game table which way works best for you.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #101 on: 16 December 2022, 08:43:52 »
I would characterize that as people simply not playing ENOUGH rather than "not paying attention".... Stats work like that...  ^-^

AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #102 on: 16 December 2022, 09:22:40 »
Probabilities aren't statistics. They're straight up mathematics. In a large game of BT, there's enough TH rolls to push the individual, experimental probabilities to the true, theoretical ones. The fact that floating crit games last longer than torso crit illustrates this fact.   

NeonKnight

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #103 on: 16 December 2022, 10:07:32 »
Or...or...and I know this is crazy...but think of it this way. If I and others want to play Floating Crits in our games, so what?

It IS just a game after all and if folks want to play it one way or another where is the harm. It's not like CGL, or anyone else is gonna bust your down for playing the game one way or the other.
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #104 on: 16 December 2022, 10:31:11 »
Or...or...and I know this is crazy...but think of it this way. If I and others want to play Floating Crits in our games, so what?

It IS just a game after all and if folks want to play it one way or another where is the harm. It's not like CGL, or anyone else is gonna bust your down for playing the game one way or the other.

We play with floating crits and don't care what anyone else plays. The point to my last post was that one shouldn't dismiss the math involved in the game. If players want faster games, kicking over to torso crits is one of the best ways to go. And, that's all due to the probability.

Charistoph

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #105 on: 16 December 2022, 14:34:48 »
Probabilities aren't statistics. They're straight up mathematics.

Probabilities and statistics are almost the same thing, just on the opposite sides of "happening".  Probabilities are about what MAY happen.  Statistics are about what DID happen.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #106 on: 16 December 2022, 15:00:08 »
I know the difference between statistics and probability. Statistics can be skewed in a variety of ways. Theoretical probability can't. And, the more experiments (i.e. dice rolls) you perform, the more theoretical stops being "theoretical" and starts being reality. If you keep track of the rolls in a typical game of BT (which I have), you'll find they end up matching the theoretical probability curve within a few percent. 

Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #107 on: 16 December 2022, 19:23:17 »
And that's why stats are useful...  8)

Col Toda

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #108 on: 17 December 2022, 12:32:44 »
It appears to be a 3 way split . 1/3 hate the optional rule 1/3 love it and 1/3 do not care . I lean towards not caring and hating it. Maybe a pole should be done  ?

Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #109 on: 17 December 2022, 12:41:20 »
Well, 1/3 of the self-selected responders anyway...  ::)

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #110 on: 19 December 2022, 12:33:01 »
We needed a quicker game yesterday so we kicked over to Torso Crits. It wasn't a bad game, outside of overabundance of crit seeking. One player had a King Crab with a pair of LBX-20s and spent the first five rounds popping off scattershot rounds. He was the first mech off of the table but he managed to destroy an Axman with engine hits and made life rough for a few other mechs with engine and gyro hits.

Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #111 on: 19 December 2022, 13:29:19 »
Sounds like it EARNED being the first one off the table...

OatsAndHall

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #112 on: 19 December 2022, 13:35:36 »
Yes indeed it did. I wouldn't mind kicking over to torso crits to shorten games if we could limit the amount of crit seeking spam. Mainly because it drags the game out; roll after roll..

Charistoph

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #113 on: 19 December 2022, 14:15:55 »
Yes indeed it did. I wouldn't mind kicking over to torso crits to shorten games if we could limit the amount of crit seeking spam. Mainly because it drags the game out; roll after roll..

That's actually pretty easy by limiting the tech that can do it.  The best Crit-Seeker in Introtech/3SW is the SRM-6, which isn't spammed very much.  Heck, the Hunchback 4P is probably more dangerous for Crit-seeking at that point.
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Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #114 on: 19 December 2022, 14:51:34 »
SRM Carriers were feared for exactly that reason...  8)

Charistoph

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #115 on: 19 December 2022, 15:33:17 »
SRM Carriers were feared for exactly that reason...  8)

Well, if they can survive to deliver it.  We've run across a few in our campaign.  For some reason they've been largely ineffective... 

Meanwhile, we have a Hunchback 4P, and it scares the brown pants of anyone it gets close to.  Maybe because its pilot has MedLas Specialist and Human TRO?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
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Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #116 on: 19 December 2022, 15:56:14 »
4Ps are terrifying even without those SPAs...  ^-^

NeonKnight

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #117 on: 19 December 2022, 16:12:35 »
Yes indeed it did. I wouldn't mind kicking over to torso crits to shorten games if we could limit the amount of crit seeking spam. Mainly because it drags the game out; roll after roll..

 ???

How does Floating Crits versus a Regular CT Crit make a game longer? I fire an LB-20x and get 12 hits, of those 12 lets say 1 is a Location 2. It's just 1 single die roll to determine the new location (say Left leg) and then roll for a crit.

I'm just not seeing as how it takes/makes a game significantly longer.

The thing that makes a game longer is not through-armor-criticals, it massive LB-x's and SRM spam.
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

Daryk

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #118 on: 19 December 2022, 16:14:44 »
I took his meaning to be it drove the players to select LB-X/SRM spam...  ^-^

NeonKnight

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Re: Center Torso or Floating Crit on a "2" Location Roll
« Reply #119 on: 19 December 2022, 16:22:28 »
I took his meaning to be it drove the players to select LB-X/SRM spam...  ^-^

except he said they needed to play a quicker game because a player brought an LBx King Crab. Ergo, the question of how a floating Crit is longer to adjudicate vs standard CT crit.
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

 

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