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Author Topic: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'  (Read 577 times)

DasBooter

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Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« on: 20 March 2021, 06:01:08 »
Halp!

I'm having trouble getting my head around an apparent inconsistency in the way building modifiers are calculated in the Combat Within Buildings examples on p72 Battlemech Manual and p176 TW, specifically what counts as an intervening level.

In the BM example, the Warhammer is 1 level directly above the Battlemaster, therefore there is no intervening level, so why does it get the +1 for it?
The Locust is two levels above, so there is an intervening level so I can understand why there's a +1 in that example.

For the TW example I get the same confusion between the Kobold and the LRM troopers.

Seems like the rules cant decide whether it's 'difference in levels' or 'intervening levels' that you count.

Thanks

Calimehter

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #1 on: 22 March 2021, 19:53:00 »
Seems like a better question for the rules forum . . . but we all know the *true* answer is to burn the buildings to ash and cackle with glee as all the Mechs in them fall to the same level and don't have to worry about the situation anymore.  :D

DasBooter

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #2 on: 23 March 2021, 02:23:24 »
Absolutely that's the better option :-)
However my son and I played a scenario where his pbi had to kill mine in a multi level building in order to free some wealthy hostages, so razing it to the ground wouldn't have paid well.
In the end I just applied the standard +1 for combat within buildings and another +1 or +2 based on common sense.

Kovax

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #3 on: 25 March 2021, 09:58:43 »
It's a pity that the infantry damage rules don't either use the random missile hits charts, or else have the to-hit modifiers affect damage as well.  As it stands, an infantry platoon either misses with every single shot, or hits with every shot, which is comically unrealistic.

It might have been better if the damage inflicted did the base damage against a unit if there are no to-hit modifiers, but every +1 to the shot also inflicts a -1 to the damage inflicted, to a minimum of 1 damage (so we don't end up with situations where it's "technically possible" to hit, but the modifiers make it impossible to do any damage).  There's still that slim chance for the "golden BB" effect.  Shots between infantry in cover wouldn't necessarily come down to whoever got the first lucky die roll, with the other party getting wrecked without inflicting any casualties in return, and would be more likely to drag out into firefights over several turns, instead of BANG, half of them gone in a couple of seconds of combat time.

Damage to a "hard target" (Battlemechs, vehicles) from "small arms" could also be halved AFTER the modified value, so doing more than trivial damage with standard infantry weapons would be unlikely unless the target is immobilized or stopped at short or point blank range, yet it would still be possible for them to inflict SOME damage.  None of that would involve new charts, just straight subtraction and/or division by 2 from the listed damage numbers.

Weirdo

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #4 on: 25 March 2021, 10:48:03 »
It's a pity that the infantry damage rules don't either use the random missile hits charts, or else have the to-hit modifiers affect damage as well.  As it stands, an infantry platoon either misses with every single shot, or hits with every shot, which is comically unrealistic.

Good news! Infantry actually do use the cluster table after a hit. You roll to see how many troopers hit, check the damage based on that, and apply it in 2-pt clusters. :thumbsup:
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Daryk

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #5 on: 25 March 2021, 19:47:37 »
What Weirdo said, but I have to wonder... if the scenario was about infantry vs. infantry to grab unarmored hostages, why on earth were you doing that at TW scale??  ???

DasBooter

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #6 on: 26 March 2021, 03:16:46 »
There were a couple of mechs and a tank involved in the fight too, although they were busy fighting each other.

What Weirdo said, I also find it strange that infantry can damage tanks and mechs so much with basic rifles. In SW:Legion it's impossible for infantry to damage armoured targets unless they roll crits. All regular hits are just shrugged off.

Weirdo

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #7 on: 26 March 2021, 08:42:25 »
Yeah, that comes up every so often. When confronted by it, players have two options:

1: Don't worry about it, it's just one of a jillion illogical things in Battletech, an unavoidable result of a universe created by mortal game designers instead of actual gods.

2: Come up with a solution, but keep it down in Fan Rules where it belongs.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
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NeonKnight

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #8 on: 26 March 2021, 09:00:13 »
Oh my FAVORITE Building Inconsistency is the LVL 2 Mech enters a LVL 1 building, so as per the rules, it takes up the entire LEVEL 1 of the building (meaning for stacking it does NOT occupy the roof which could have two Infantry on it, 4 if both sides have infantry there), but when the Mech Attacks it's treated as Level 2 for Cover/LoS etc, except if the Infantry on the roof are targeting the mech...and well...

In other words, I always picture a Mech getting down on it's Hands & Knees and crawling into the building except for the Combat round when it engages in WHACK-A-MOLE Shenanigans and does a Pop Up-n-down to Attack/Be Attacked...

Relevant Rules for Mechs in Buildings:

Page 71 BMM (Attacking 'Mechs in Buildings) & Page 171 Total Warfare (Attacking Unit's in Buildings: 'Mechs and LoS)

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Andrew_Cluetain

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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #9 on: 26 March 2021, 15:46:40 »
Yeah, that comes up every so often. When confronted by it, players have two options:

1: Don't worry about it, it's just one of a jillion illogical things in Battletech, an unavoidable result of a universe created by mortal game designers instead of actual gods.

2: Come up with a solution, but keep it down in Fan Rules where it belongs.

Option 2 also usually kills Cat Girls too; You Have Been Warned   :D
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Re: Combat within buildings, 'intervening level'
« Reply #10 on: 29 March 2021, 08:20:34 »
In other words, I always picture a Mech getting down on it's Hands & Knees and crawling into the building except for the Combat round when it engages in WHACK-A-MOLE Shenanigans and does a Pop Up-n-down to Attack/Be Attacked...

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