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Author Topic: D12 vs 2D6  (Read 956 times)

Louie N

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D12 vs 2D6
« on: 05 August 2021, 00:25:52 »
Hello,

I was watching a Alpha Strike battle report over at Guerrilla Miniature Games channel.  They were using 1D12 vs the traditional 2D6 for to hit rolls.  This had me intrigued; I often feel the bell curve on the 2D6 made higher numbers hard to achieve.  With my dice anything over 7 feels like a struggle.   :)

I asking for anyone's experience with this dice swap.  Was it good / bad?  How did it feel?

Thanks

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #1 on: 05 August 2021, 02:13:37 »
Although I don't have the experience for the swap, if you want the odds I can give you;

Each number in 1d12 has exact 1/12 = 3/36 chance.

If you use 2d6...

2 and 12: 1/36
3 and 11: 2/36 = 1/18
4 and 10: 3/36 = 1/12
5 and 9: 4/36 = 1/9
6 and 8: 5/36
7: 6/36 = 1/6.

And let's see the odds on the real rolls of 1d12 and 2d6;

3+: 83.33..% vs 97.22..%
4+: 75% vs 91.66..%
5+: 66.66..% vs 83.33..%
6+: 58.33..% vs 72.22..%
7+: 50% vs 58.33..%
8+: 41.66..% vs 41.66..% - the only one place it is exactly same.
9+: 33.33..% vs 27.77..%
10+: 25% vs 16.66..%
11+: 16.66..% vs 8.33..%
12+: 8.33..% vs 2.77..%

So, my opinion is, it is not a good move at all. It totally changes the odds.

Syzyx

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #2 on: 05 August 2021, 09:18:10 »
Gotta back Puppy on this one. My group tried this for a little while in the strange thought that it would speed things up. Not only did it really mess with the odds, including making shots needing 2's able to be missed, but d12's are rolly little suckers. It takes no more time to pick up 2d6 than it really does to pick up a single d12 but it does take a lot more time to wait for the d12 to stop rolling around and then find the thing when it inevitably rolls off the table.

Now, in defense of those who might have a tidier playspace, we do not have rolling trays or anything like that which would definitely have helped with losing dice. I'm also not going to count the amount of time spent recovering the standees that the d12's knocked around as the standees are pretty close to obsolete technology these days. Even the new ones are way more weighty than the old 2nd ed ones we were using.
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Sartris

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #3 on: 05 August 2021, 09:20:43 »
too swingy for my taste. Especially since nat 12 forces a crit now and you're tripling those odds

ironically, this actually helps low TMM heavies and assaults because gimme shots kind of become an adventure

Daryk

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #4 on: 05 August 2021, 12:46:52 »
too swingy for my taste. Especially since nat 12 forces a crit now and you're tripling those odds
*snip*
Wait, what?  ???

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #5 on: 05 August 2021, 12:50:47 »
Quote from: ASCE p45
Natural 12: If the attack roll is successful and the roll is a natural 12 (two 6s), the attack results in an automatic critical hit (see Applying Damage, p. 49)

Daryk

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #6 on: 05 August 2021, 13:07:44 »
Ah... it's an Alpha Strike rule.  That would be why I've never heard of it.

Sartris

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #7 on: 05 August 2021, 13:16:58 »
it also triples headshots and CT crits

Failure16

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #8 on: 06 August 2021, 16:59:56 »
So it WOULD end up speeding the game up...though perhaps not in the precise way that it was intended.

Of course, I'm a big fan of 1D20. If you want something to be reflected on a percentage of actuality, its pretty easy to figure out. But they are even more "rolly".
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #9 on: 06 August 2021, 22:39:19 »
Personally I hate any 1dx check very much - for me, the important rolls must be determined by 2dx or 3dx.

DevianID

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #10 on: 07 August 2021, 05:39:53 »
So 1d12 with no other modification is bad in any kind of point balanced game, as the value of fast units or long ranged units goes DOWN when things are easier to hit.  And 1d12 makes the "hard" shots much easier to hit.

1d12 is fun for not competitivly balanced games, however, as you get more of the 'fun' results and dont have to add 2d6 constantly (which, while not hard, is a source of error or time waster especially for new players).  One issue with a 2d6 system is that the hard shots often miss, and players can trade blows for multiple turns at long range in cover with little to show for it, making games take a while to resolve.  For new players, the d12 will smooth over some of the rough edges of how long battletech takes to learn and play with all the charts and hit locations by removing a little bit of math per roll, at the cost of balance fidelity.

Daryk

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #11 on: 07 August 2021, 05:56:04 »
Multi-die rolls get closer to the "normal" distribution that people experience for most things involving probability.  Very few things we do increase in difficulty linearly.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #12 on: 07 August 2021, 14:09:01 »
If 1dx should be justified, it must be either of them, I think.
-Warhammer/Infinity style - Each individual 1d6/1d20 rolls are represent the separated chance of hit/wound/armor(warhammer) or hit/damage(infinity), but they have many individual chances rather than one by one. Warhammer needs at least one die per a trooper and many weapons/melee attack has more than one attack per a trooper so it is not uncommon to roll for 20+ 6 sided dice per an attack, and it's only the attack of A unit, not the shooting/melee of most of your forces. Infinity usually cannot roll for more than five 20 sided dice, but each d20 represents the individual chance to hit anyways.
-Only counts for successful rolls and each one success scores 1 points, and you need to get at least some points to be succeeded - for example, when you attack with a gun in A&A War at Sea, you check the range first, check the number of the range between your ship and the target, and roll for 6 sided dice same number as the number on the range. So, if HMS Hood shoots its main gun against the target 2 hex away, check the main gun's range 2 - which is 14 - so you need to roll 14d6. And, check the die with 4+(which is success) and count it. Each 6 is considered as two success instead. If the sum of success is equal or more than the armor of the target, it hits and the target lose one hull point. If it is equal or more than the vital armor of the target, the target is destroyed outright. If the target is also the Hood, which has armor 8, vital armor 13, and hull points 5, you need at least eight success to cause 1 damage to Hood, and if your total success is 13 or more then the enemy Hood is sink outright.

Personally, I really, really hate the rules with 1dx rolls for the important checks, but in these cases you can't be helped.

Alzer

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #13 on: 08 August 2021, 23:58:15 »
Not super experienced on the Battletech side here, but having played games with bell curved dice mechanics and without....bell curves please! The raw variance of a single die is just too swingy for me. Being able to more accurately figure my odds (even if the dice then decide to spit on my hopes and dreams)  with some reliability just makes the game more enjoyable for me.
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Louie N

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #14 on: 09 August 2021, 21:59:00 »
Good stuff.  Thank you

Kovax

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #15 on: 10 August 2021, 11:12:55 »
Actually, the odds of critical hits in the standard BT game would be FAR worse with 1D12 than with 2D6.

First, your odds of scoring a possible critical hit (natural "snake-eyes" roll of 2) goes from 1:36 chance (only one out of 36 possibilities) to 1:12.  Then, the odds of the possible critical hit actually becoming one requires a roll of 8+ for 1 critical, 10+ for 2, and 12 for 3.  Rolling the 8+ is comparable either way, but the odds of getting two or three critical effects jump up substantially, from 6:36 (1:6) odds for two hits to 3:12 (1:4), and from 1:36 for three critical effects or limb blown off up to 1:12.

That's triple the odds of a possible hit, compounded with triple the odds of blowing an arm, leg, or head off a 'Mech if you do score a critical.

Using a D12 for the rolls for hit locations would make arms the most likely targets, rather than the CT, since there are TWO possible numbers for each of them, rather than one like other locations.

I've often thought that the granularity of to-hit modifiers in BT wasn't quite enough, and that either 2D10 or 3D6 would have been better.  Using 1D6 for most rolls, as in WH40K, always felt wrong, since even a +1 or -1 difference was enormous, and in many cases a +2 or -2 would be an automatic success or failure.  A +4 or +5 modifier in Battletech is often still within the range of playability, so it allows for more things to affect combat, and with degrees of difference between stop, slow, fast, and "what was that?", or "in your face", close, not so close, and far.

Alzer

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #16 on: 10 August 2021, 13:13:39 »
So what I'm hearing is that 1d12 is the way we should be playing the to make things more lively?
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Daryk

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #17 on: 10 August 2021, 13:17:51 »
"Lively" is not what I'd call it.

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #18 on: 10 August 2021, 13:21:09 »
Its only "more lively" when its a parked slug fest of assaults.

Light Mechs have a hard enough time staying alive using fast movement instead of raw armor.

Making 12's 3x as common is a bad idea.

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Sartris

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #19 on: 10 August 2021, 13:23:24 »
Alpha strike? Maybe. TW? It will be fun until the first person in your group realizes the odds are good enough now to warrant volume shooting with missiles to maximize hit location rolls.

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #20 on: 10 August 2021, 18:04:01 »
So 1d12 with no other modification is bad in any kind of point balanced game, as the value of fast units or long ranged units goes DOWN when things are easier to hit.  And 1d12 makes the "hard" shots much easier to hit.

1d12 is fun for not competitivly balanced games, however, as you get more of the 'fun' results and dont have to add 2d6 constantly (which, while not hard, is a source of error or time waster especially for new players).  One issue with a 2d6 system is that the hard shots often miss, and players can trade blows for multiple turns at long range in cover with little to show for it, making games take a while to resolve.  For new players, the d12 will smooth over some of the rough edges of how long battletech takes to learn and play with all the charts and hit locations by removing a little bit of math per roll, at the cost of balance fidelity.

Or the G/P skill values can be increased.  I never give my players worse than 3/4 pilots and crews to start with, otherwise the game takes forever.
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Sartris

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #21 on: 10 August 2021, 19:05:34 »
If you’re just doing stand and shoot till one side’s dead. I usually can run a four objective  10k BV per side game in three hours. Uniformly raising gunnery disadvantages lighter units even more than they already are

Demiurge

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #22 on: 11 August 2021, 06:12:59 »
It's also possible to roll a 1 on a 1D12, and that is not possible with 2D6.


A potential alternative middleground is 1D4 + 1D8.  Yes, all them pointy triangular bastards.  The range of outputs is the same as 2D6, 2-12, but the bell curve is rather flatter.  Extreme outcomes occur 1/32 of the time rather than 1/36 of the time.

I like the idea of a game where the actual dice pool for rolls goes down.  Say your mech is in pristine order.  You get 3D8 or something for all rolls.  Certain failures, like say MASC failure, only occur on a 2.  Well, that can't happen as long as everything is working right and in spec.  Say then that you have an overheat.  Oops, now your automatic systems monitoring is fried, and the mech-jock is relying on the seat of their pants feel.  To represent this, rolls are now only 2D8 or something.  Now all those failures that simply could not happen when everything was working right can happen.

Something like this would explain how a system like MASC or an ultra autocannon could ever actually make it past the procurement review board.

Demiurge

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #23 on: 11 August 2021, 06:21:26 »


The more dice rolls you sum up, the more the results become like a mathematically idealized bell curve (also called a normal distribution).  Blue line is the probability of each roll, blue line is the cumulative probability.

This is why people talk about "break points" for to-hit numbers like 7 or 8.  The middle of the distribution is where the big changes in cumulative probability occur:


PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: D12 vs 2D6
« Reply #24 on: 11 August 2021, 08:53:18 »
Remember that you need to start from 12 and add 11, 10, 9, so on, as my post above. Battletech needs a number or higher, not lower.

 

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