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Author Topic: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?  (Read 708 times)

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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The recent rules answer gives us an interesting thing - the counter-battery fire is assumed that hits the ground it shoots, rather than the artillery itself. So, if your VTOL artillery(currently one variant for both Karnov and Yellow Jacket) have at least elevation 4 or more, it is effectively immune to counter battery at all.

But a cheese expects a cheese. If someone plays a VTOL artillery and make them playing god against the counter-battery batteries, then why not to make an alternative way to hunt down them all? What will be your idea to deal with them if the opponent have any of?

The initial thought is using scout VTOL or ASFs to search and destroy them. Since they are VTOL and have enough elevation to avoid counter battery, they are surely quite visible and are very easy to find than most ground artillery. And a detected battery is effectively a dead battery, you know. Although it is not always easy to infiltrate enough force to kill the battery, but at least you can find where are they easier than the other artillery.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #1 on: 06 April 2021, 13:28:38 »
I'd send in a Mantis, solid VTOL hunter, or course you could just counter-battery fire with an Anti-Air Arrow IV and not have to worry about it. Of course as Cheetah or similar light ASF, conventional or otherwise would suffice.

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #2 on: 06 April 2021, 13:57:44 »
The recent rules answer gives us an interesting thing - the counter-battery fire is assumed that hits the ground it shoots, rather than the artillery itself. So, if your VTOL artillery(currently one variant for both Karnov and Yellow Jacket) have at least elevation 4 or more, it is effectively immune to counter battery at all.

But a cheese expects a cheese. If someone plays a VTOL artillery and make them playing god against the counter-battery batteries, then why not to make an alternative way to hunt down them all? What will be your idea to deal with them if the opponent have any of?

The initial thought is using scout VTOL or ASFs to search and destroy them. Since they are VTOL and have enough elevation to avoid counter battery, they are surely quite visible and are very easy to find than most ground artillery. And a detected battery is effectively a dead battery, you know. Although it is not always easy to infiltrate enough force to kill the battery, but at least you can find where are they easier than the other artillery.

Or you could say Airburst munitions burst near the VTOLs as they pass through the relevant hex due to a proximity fuse. Or standard artillery shells hit the rotor as they arrive in the hex.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #3 on: 06 April 2021, 23:20:37 »
I'd send in a Mantis, solid VTOL hunter, or course you could just counter-battery fire with an Anti-Air Arrow IV and not have to worry about it. Of course as Cheetah or similar light ASF, conventional or otherwise would suffice.

Exactly this;  We're talking Yellowjackets here.  Mantis, Marten, even some versions of the Ferret can put them out of action.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #4 on: 07 April 2021, 04:33:02 »
So only if they can infiltrate, they are done for....

AlphaMirage

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #5 on: 07 April 2021, 06:37:34 »
So only if they can infiltrate, they are done for....

Are they hovering above Partisans, Riflemen, or other Anti-Air Mechs (that could be hit by counter-battery artillery fire)? I mean either way an ASF can make it through from a different angle and the enemy's guns can only reach so far (and they'd have to shoot at a fast moving VTOL or ASF at Elevation, hardly a sure thing).

Yellow Jackets are fragile and not fast enough to escape pursuit by enemy aircraft (nothing is) if located and unlike artillery tanks they don't have the armor (or formation) to defend themselves; which again could be solved with an Anti-Air Arrow IV. They are really better used on a big map serving as Attack Helicopters hiding behind terrain and poking up with guided Arrow IVs before ducking down again and repositioning. That way they have screening forces to prevent fast mechs with LRMs from approaching and air support likely has better targets, of course they are still vulnerable to the above.

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #6 on: 07 April 2021, 09:42:09 »
CF's make a return! ... While they are paper tigers (house cats?) against ground based units, if you have some CFs loitering, you now have a job for them.  Just make sure they have enough firepower to over come the armor of the units they're sent after.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #7 on: 07 April 2021, 11:35:54 »
Are they hovering above Partisans, Riflemen, or other Anti-Air Mechs (that could be hit by counter-battery artillery fire)? I mean either way an ASF can make it through from a different angle and the enemy's guns can only reach so far (and they'd have to shoot at a fast moving VTOL or ASF at Elevation, hardly a sure thing).

Yellow Jackets are fragile and not fast enough to escape pursuit by enemy aircraft (nothing is) if located and unlike artillery tanks they don't have the armor (or formation) to defend themselves; which again could be solved with an Anti-Air Arrow IV. They are really better used on a big map serving as Attack Helicopters hiding behind terrain and poking up with guided Arrow IVs before ducking down again and repositioning. That way they have screening forces to prevent fast mechs with LRMs from approaching and air support likely has better targets, of course they are still vulnerable to the above.

They really don't have the movement profile for that, unless it's lobbing at the next mapsheet.  The problem with canyon-carving or terrain screening, is that to do anything with it you need enough MP to actually use it, and 6/9 isn't unless you have lots of extra ammo to make up for being unable to hit anything because you're flanking (and a good enough Piloting score to avoid becoming one with the terrain you're trying to screen behind because you're flanking.)

YJ Arrow are best used as off-mapsheet support assets, and if you do that, then it's field arty that's immune to counterbattery under the rules (the original poster noted this as the topic here).

Almost ANY time you get a Yellowjacket on a map against someone who has even a half-reasonable counter to VTOLs (LBX autocannons, pulse lasers, HAG, LRM racks and so on) it's going to die very quickly as soon as  or shortly after popping up to make a shot, and it can't move fast enough to evade a VTOL hunter type vehicle like a Mantis, H-7, H-8, Cavalry AH, Marten, or Some versions of Ferret.  The only maps where you can field YJ's and do so successfully, is against low-tier opponents that are slow and have zero counters against flying things.  (in which case, you don't NEED to terrain screen.)

There's a sort of 'Fetish' for heavy and big gun in the game, and with a tank, that's not a problem-but with a VTOL, it ends up needing the whole scenario built around keeping the Yellowjacket alive (and i mean built on both ends-because the opfor has to accept terms that limit their ability to fight it for the scenario to work.)

Yellowjacket Aero-IV, has a distinct place-as offboard/offmap artillery, because it's immune to counterbattery, but that is a new addition essentially meant to make it worth the page space.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #8 on: 07 April 2021, 23:18:39 »
Couldn't you just declare they are using "Flak" ammo for the Artillery which would hit airborne targets?
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #9 on: 08 April 2021, 02:20:20 »
There is no such thing as flak ammo for artillery. You use normal rounds, and have to declare what altitude they'll be detonating at over your mapsheet.

Artillery makes for good local AA, but it's still just was local as any other direct-fire shot. You want to kill a flying unit several map sheets away, you need to send something after it. The aforementioned Mantis is a good idea, as is any ASF or CF with any kind of internal weaponry. About the only good thing about Yellow Jackets is that they usually survive a single salvo, barring lots of rotor hits. You'll need to hit it act least twice, so one shot units like Jump Bombers are not advised.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #10 on: 08 April 2021, 04:56:36 »
First, Air-Defense Arrow Missile have no in use at all, for its range is only 2 ground mapsheets. While Inner Sphere Arrow IV's range is 8 mapsheets. Tube artilliery have the longer range as well.

Also... there is no flak rounds to aim the mid-air, I think. The most close one is cluster round, but it does not says that it do attacks mid-air either. However, since it is to against cheese, so you may ruled that such rounds do attacks VTOLs hover on the area for it burst mid-air and the fragments are swarming the target hex. At least you can insist it.

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #11 on: 08 April 2021, 07:55:31 »
First, Air-Defense Arrow Missile have no in use at all, for its range is only 2 ground mapsheets. While Inner Sphere Arrow IV's range is 8 mapsheets. Tube artilliery have the longer range as well.

No. All anti-air artillery attacks are direct-fire shots, so by definition everything that isn't an ADA has a range of one mapsheet(17 hexes to be precise) when shooting at air units. You want longer range than that, you MUST be shooting at the ground.
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Jellico

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #12 on: 08 April 2021, 08:26:23 »
Fuzzy rule remembering...

Once you hit a location can't you walk your fire off it one hex at a time? Almost certainly there is no mention of walking your fire up, but that is what rule lawyers are for.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #13 on: 08 April 2021, 09:08:12 »
No. All anti-air artillery attacks are direct-fire shots, so by definition everything that isn't an ADA has a range of one mapsheet(17 hexes to be precise) when shooting at air units. You want longer range than that, you MUST be shooting at the ground.
I mean, range of Air-Defense Arrow Missile is too short to actually attack the battery.

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #14 on: 08 April 2021, 09:52:47 »
There is no such thing as flak ammo for artillery. You use normal rounds, and have to declare what altitude they'll be detonating at over your mapsheet.
Ah,  I was misremembering how it worked. 


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Cannonshop

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #15 on: 08 April 2021, 10:41:35 »
Fuzzy rule remembering...

Once you hit a location can't you walk your fire off it one hex at a time? Almost certainly there is no mention of walking your fire up, but that is what rule lawyers are for.

Your problem is 'shoot and move', which an airborne vtol with arrow Iv being able to ignore counterbattery means you're whiffling unless you're incredibly lucky. HE can walk his fire from off map, because he's got control of the engagement regardless of the initiative roll, since he's immune to normal counterbattery, and air-defense only applies over a very shortened zone compared to his munitions.

I'm kind of thinking the Devs didn't think this one through to the logical conclusion.  They've basically made a situation where there's a unit that's able to inflict massive damage and is essentially immune to counters, and can do so until the ammo runs dry with complete impunity, because there AREN'T any counters.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #16 on: 08 April 2021, 10:47:31 »
+1 to above, it is also total BS that ADAIV can only fire on the same map, it makes them even less capable than LRMs or AC/2s when in fact they should be much more capable (and I always thought they were). Wonder if we can get an errata to correct that obvious flaw.

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #17 on: 08 April 2021, 11:06:47 »
Well Air2Air Arrows are still a whopping 20 point hit,  that is a LOT more useful than an AC2 IMHO.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #18 on: 08 April 2021, 11:41:31 »
They really don't have the movement profile for that, unless it's lobbing at the next mapsheet.  The problem with canyon-carving or terrain screening, is that to do anything with it you need enough MP to actually use it, and 6/9 isn't unless you have lots of extra ammo to make up for being unable to hit anything because you're flanking (and a good enough Piloting score to avoid becoming one with the terrain you're trying to screen behind because you're flanking.)

YJ Arrow are best used as off-mapsheet support assets, and if you do that, then it's field arty that's immune to counterbattery under the rules (the original poster noted this as the topic here).

Two things again- first you missed the type of round being fired (Homing) so 'missing' is not as much of a problem since it relies on TAG.  Second, it is a simple PSR to avoid sideslipping into the terrain and based on a regular pilot (5 piloting) means that if you rolled a 2 that means the largest MoF is 3 hexes provided you traveled 4 before turning.  Advance 1 hex, turn and go flank and it does not matter if you miss the roll you will not move out of the hex.  A VTOL sideslipping is easy to plan around.

The final thing- if you are 'immune' to the counterbattery as the provided scenario indicates, you are not using the masking terrain to worry about any of the above.

But every time you bring this up and try to advance that position you are claiming a player using a Yellow Jacket, either normal or A4 is executing bad doctrine.  Your suppositions however are built off bad doctrine in the first place.  This is combined arms . . . you KNOW the weakness of the Yellow Jacket in either form supporting your other ground forces is against AA or VTOL/CF/ASF HK teams (which is why you always want to bring that up) but your scenarios are always based on the player employing the YJ not using the synergy of combined arms to cover the weaknesses of the YJ. 

Send your VTOL HK teams after a YJ hanging back . . . the Yellow Jacket is going to be kept under my AA (basically LBX) umbrella, we will see how many VTOLs you get back.  My preferred AA coverage is a vehicle w/ a LB-5X in a turret . . . like the cheap Vedette, and so when not engaged in AA duties they are assisting with crit-seeking against other targets.  Or I mount a Light AA A4 externally to the YJ for self-defense.  Never mind it could be a ambush with the YJ loaded with nothing but the AA A4 internally to suck in your Aero assets.

Return ground fire?  Well, only two of the weapons you listed am I worried about against most opponents and one (HAG) is still pretty faction limited.  IS Pulse are at best going to be hitting out to 15 (X type) and the best way for the YJ to participate in that environment is not be the best target for the rest.  Stay at long or mid range, and usually that mech or tank that is closer w/ a lower THN is what folks are going to fire at in most games.  Basic principle of the game- you want something to survive, do not be the easiest target available.

I have not looked closely at the Counter-Battery fire but . . . considering how badly they have nerf'd regular artillery fire, counterbattery seems WAY too accurate.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #19 on: 08 April 2021, 11:43:31 »
I mean, range of Air-Defense Arrow Missile is too short to actually attack the battery.

Given that we're talking about airborne batteries, this is true of ALL artillery, not just ADAs.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #20 on: 08 April 2021, 11:45:43 »
I'm kind of thinking the Devs didn't think this one through to the logical conclusion.  They've basically made a situation where there's a unit that's able to inflict massive damage and is essentially immune to counters, and can do so until the ammo runs dry with complete impunity, because there AREN'T any counters.

You're ignoring the multiple counters put forth in this very thread, some of which you brought up yourself.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #21 on: 08 April 2021, 17:25:13 »
Two things again- first you missed the type of round being fired (Homing) so 'missing' is not as much of a problem since it relies on TAG.  Second, it is a simple PSR to avoid sideslipping into the terrain and based on a regular pilot (5 piloting) means that if you rolled a 2 that means the largest MoF is 3 hexes provided you traveled 4 before turning.  Advance 1 hex, turn and go flank and it does not matter if you miss the roll you will not move out of the hex.  A VTOL sideslipping is easy to plan around.

The final thing- if you are 'immune' to the counterbattery as the provided scenario indicates, you are not using the masking terrain to worry about any of the above.

But every time you bring this up and try to advance that position you are claiming a player using a Yellow Jacket, either normal or A4 is executing bad doctrine.  Your suppositions however are built off bad doctrine in the first place.  This is combined arms . . . you KNOW the weakness of the Yellow Jacket in either form supporting your other ground forces is against AA or VTOL/CF/ASF HK teams (which is why you always want to bring that up) but your scenarios are always based on the player employing the YJ not using the synergy of combined arms to cover the weaknesses of the YJ. 

Send your VTOL HK teams after a YJ hanging back . . . the Yellow Jacket is going to be kept under my AA (basically LBX) umbrella, we will see how many VTOLs you get back.  My preferred AA coverage is a vehicle w/ a LB-5X in a turret . . . like the cheap Vedette, and so when not engaged in AA duties they are assisting with crit-seeking against other targets.  Or I mount a Light AA A4 externally to the YJ for self-defense.  Never mind it could be a ambush with the YJ loaded with nothing but the AA A4 internally to suck in your Aero assets.

Return ground fire?  Well, only two of the weapons you listed am I worried about against most opponents and one (HAG) is still pretty faction limited.  IS Pulse are at best going to be hitting out to 15 (X type) and the best way for the YJ to participate in that environment is not be the best target for the rest.  Stay at long or mid range, and usually that mech or tank that is closer w/ a lower THN is what folks are going to fire at in most games.  Basic principle of the game- you want something to survive, do not be the easiest target available.

I have not looked closely at the Counter-Battery fire but . . . considering how badly they have nerf'd regular artillery fire, counterbattery seems WAY too accurate.

Colt, I've run VTOLs under several rules paradigms, and even with the rotor-immunity-nerf, a Yellowjacket is basically an expensive way to redistribute firepower to the other side UNLESS KEEPING IT ALIVE IS YOUR FORCE'S ONLY OBJECTIVE.

IOW, yes, if your forces are concentrating solely on keeping that Yellowjacket operational, it's pretty safe.  The problem is, if keeping your Jellowbucket safe is your primary objective, you're probably not accomplishing your primary objectives with regards to fighting the scenario.

You're basically in a situation where it's not an asset, it's the objective,  and that's a pretty narrow set of circumstances.  Why? because it doesn't work on offense or on a fluid battlefield-you know, the main reasons to take VTOL units.

This is very different from 'mech combat, where you don't have that pesky 'falling out of the sky' problem or the equally pesky 'you need to keep your MP up or you'll be SHOT out of the sky" problem (which leads to the falling out of the sky problem).  YES, you can move one hex and not have to make that PSR-and you will have diddly squat for a movement modifier and be essentially a stationary target for weapons who DO NOT have a bonus to hit flying vehicles.

Unless you're only in a situation where you only have to worry about counterbattery, because the devs dropped a ruling that makes the Yellowjacket immune to counterbattery artillery fire...off the map.

IN which case it doesn't have to screen behind anything-it can lob shells from off-map and be completely immune to damage since it's an off-map asset and counterbattery is a specific game mechanic.

(and don't tell me some clever opportunist isn't going to run it just like that-it doesn't even need to move at all, it's just immune.)

Which is a situation that needs to be brought to the devs, to be fixed before "Yellowjacket AIV off the map" becomes the new 'easy button to win'.

but the standard yellowjacket is absolutely a demonstration of "The rules let you do it,but doing it is kinda dumb if you want to win against anyone who's half awake or better."

Some designs are simply bad designs.  the base model Yellowjacket fits that description.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #22 on: 08 April 2021, 17:30:43 »
How is the YJ-AIV an easy button if there are multiple cheap and widely available ways in the modern ruleset to neutralize it? Being immune to *one* counter while still being affected by all the others is hardly an easy-win button.
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #23 on: 09 April 2021, 10:42:27 »
Well, what I have in mind is, is VTOL on elevation of 4 or more quite visible from several mapsheets distance? On the ground, not only while flying?

Normally, you cannot directly see the artillery because it does not have direct line of sight, as well as it have very long distance. But, in this case the artillery is flying through midair so it is possible that it is already quite visible even from the ground. It is also possible that it may hide behind of a mountain, though.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2021, 10:47:58 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Wolf72

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #24 on: 09 April 2021, 11:16:56 »
It's a good tactic.

Eventually someone will use it against your forces, or invest in countermeasures (HK units VTOL/ASF/CF etc.).  Both sides spending resources that take away from their front-lines.  Basically another chess move. Wait, maybe more like 3-D chess from Star Trek.
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Weirdo

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #25 on: 09 April 2021, 13:24:02 »
Well, what I have in mind is, is VTOL on elevation of 4 or more quite visible from several mapsheets distance? On the ground, not only while flying?

Normally, you cannot directly see the artillery because it does not have direct line of sight, as well as it have very long distance. But, in this case the artillery is flying through midair so it is possible that it is already quite visible even from the ground. It is also possible that it may hide behind of a mountain, though.

Per TacOps, the max range for visual detection in good conditions is 60 hexes, roughly half the firing range of Inner Sphere Arrow launchers.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #26 on: 09 April 2021, 13:59:04 »
So... you have to find it out first. Although it would be easier than typical ground artilleries.

Wolf72

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #27 on: 09 April 2021, 14:59:35 »
So how long can a boomerang (or your own homegrown variant) spotter plane loiter? (is that the right use of loiter, or is that more specific to a very local battleground?) ... get one of those up at 6-8 altitudes (8 is max for a CF right? ... whatever is 0 penalty).  That and a something that can attack when a target of opportunity (or necessity) arises.

What would the BV2 of the YJA4 be compared to a CF style bomber (Boeing Jump Bomber, or something similar).  Would a bomber (or several) even compare to artillery, ahem ...compare favorably?
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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #28 on: 09 April 2021, 15:15:43 »
So... you have to find it out first. Although it would be easier than typical ground artilleries.

Per rules, you know where it is as soon as a shell lands while one of your units has LoS to the impact point. There is no exception for airborne batteries. Finding the Yellow Jackets is not an issue.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

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Re: Fun thread - a cheese for a cheese, against VTOL Artillery?
« Reply #29 on: 09 April 2021, 15:24:02 »
What would the BV2 of the YJA4 be compared to a CF style bomber (Boeing Jump Bomber, or something similar).  Would a bomber (or several) even compare to artillery, ahem ...compare favorably?

An empty Boeing Jump Bomber costs 64 BV. Loading one up with external rocket launchers(which are absolutely the ONLY bomb type that can hurt an airborne VTOL) brings the BV to 136 BV. This compares well to the Yellow Jacket Arrow's BV of 612.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

 

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