I've been told to Secure a Surveillance Location.

[Tangoforone]

So my uncle is setting up a game; 17.5K BV2.  Jade Falcon vs. WoB, with me being the Word of Blake.

WoB objective:  Establish and maintain position to survey surrounding area in order to relay information for future tactical deployment of forces for invasion.

Jade Falcon forces:  at 17.5K BV, I'm not entirely sure what he is bringing, but my guess would be an Assault star (1x assaults, 2x heavies, and 2x mediums), with a star of elementals.

So, I could bring some mechs and field some tanks to get that combined arms effect going.  Or...I field half a division of battle armor, with combat efficient transports (i.e. not Karnov's), off-board artillery in the form of three Marksman Tanks, and enough TAG-capable units and Copperhead munitions to make the battlefield into a RAVE.  Goal will be to sprint towards the center of the field, capture whatever terrain is ideal for me (woods, buildings, etc.), then let the artillery munitions fly.  Vehicles with TAG pincer the opfor, who hopefully just drive straight into my battlearmor.  Ensure whatever I see gets Tagged, and beaten up with artillery.

What would you do in this scenario?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

What would you do in this scenario?

  I'd make a point not to be seen at all. My idea of surveillance is discrete infiltration and scouting, not poking a hornet's nest to see how many are there.

  I see a typical "body count" scenario and you've pretty much have the asymmetrical warfare angle down: Play dezgra to the hilt, ambush, encircle and destroy. You'll have plenty of TAG and spotters, you might want a few mechs tossed in for durability, unless you're trying to force an urban fight, which Clans will avoid if there is no glory (mech kills) to be gained.

  I'm assuming this is post-Tukayyid, so WoB is definitely dezgra, so don't expect the CJF forces to fight nice. As a Clanner, when faced with dug-in infantry I'll toss Arrow IVs at you all day, until your ears bleed, because I won't waste Elementals. I'll even call in airstrikes to find your batteries.

[garhkal]

I agree.  Get a few mechs in the mix, if nothing else, to try and Draw his forces in, to where you want them to be.

[Greatclub]

A couple 'distraction carnifex' seem appropriate to me as well. Something that can generate big TMM; Preta A comes to mind, or FS9-B.

[Weirdo]

I'd go for a mix as well, albeit for different reasons.

I've played big infantry forces with fire support backup before. They're loads of fun, can and you can deal out a LOT of damage, but it's really hard to actually kill anything with them. They really need a mech to support them, that can deal at least one 10-point hit. I know you've got the Copperheads, but it's always best to assume TAG will end up being unreliable(besides, you'll probably need regular HE salvos at least on a few turns, to clear out Elementals). Bring at least one hole-puncher mech.

[Simon Landmine]

However you decide to seize the day (or the location), please do an After Action Report - I'd love to hear how this ends up playing out!

[SCC]

I'd go for a mix as well, albeit for different reasons.

I've played big infantry forces with fire support backup before. They're loads of fun, can and you can deal out a LOT of damage, but it's really hard to actually kill anything with them. They really need a mech to support them, that can deal at least one 10-point hit. I know you've got the Copperheads, but it's always best to assume TAG will end up being unreliable(besides, you'll probably need regular HE salvos at least on a few turns, to clear out Elementals). Bring at least one hole-puncher mech.

If I'm not using Field Guns to solve this for some reason, I'd bring vehicles like the Hetzer or Demolisher, or is there some problem with using them?

[gunner]

Hetzer and Demolisher  are good IF and only IF they are with in 9 hexes. Regulators Fury Alacorns  would be better.
    Not a fan of AC 20,  range is too short.  Plus the one I posted also would help get rid of the range  superiority the clan has.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Hetzer and Demolisher  are good IF and only IF they are with in 9 hexes.

  It depends on how well intel reveals ther terrain. If the woods and buildings make the ranges closer, AC20s may be the perfect weapons. If they have time to prepare an ambush, even more so. As a GM, I have players so confident that they drop mines behind the enemy to prevent their escape.

[SCC]

Weirdo was describing using something in conjunction with infantry, and a hole-puncher to match infantry's innate cluster abilities, so I don't think the short range is an issue.

[Weirdo]

You missed the mech part. Field guns are great for ambushes and occasionally sniping, but they're neutered far too quickly to provide the kind of sustained hole-punching this force needs. Same goes for Hetzers and Demolishers, to a lesser extent.

This force needs something with PPCs, Gauss Rifles, or at least LB10-X, to put holes in the target while remaining functional and mobile in the face of return fire. Something that when combined with the artillery, convinces the opposition that hanging back and punishing the hill from afar isn't going to work in a reasonable time span.

Weirdo was describing using something in conjunction with infantry, and a hole-puncher to match infantry's innate cluster abilities, so I don't think the short range is an issue.

You came to the exact opposite of the correct conclusion. The three great weaknesses of infantry are that they lack hole-punching AND range AND mobility. To complement them, you need something with all three of those.

[Tangoforone]

I'll provide an after-action when the game occurs, should be the 26th. I don't think my opponent will bring artillery for the Clans, as he likely doesn't know the extent of what I am doing.  Obviously the big concern with the battle armor-heavy force would be range and post-transport drop mobility of battle armor.  Obviously I just really need to utilize terrain and smoke munitions (SRM launched) to my advantage.  I'm using Pinto WoB VTOLs, so the MML-5 will have smoke munitions instead of SRM ammo. With an MML-5 with SRM smoke munitions, I can fill a 3 inch diameter (or hex and all surrounding hexes, if we play hexes) with heavy cover for 5 rounds.  If I drop that directly on my battle armor, they are completely obscured until the Clans enter the smoke with them.  Sure, I will not be dealing very heavy damage with battlearmor, but they won't be shot at until the enemy is right on top of them, and hopefully by then there will be plenty of holes to crit seek with their SRM and Rocket launchers. 

I think it is a sound strategy, but mostly I painted up these units and haven't gotten to use them at all because 2020, and this will require me to really use tactics that I am not used to.  My heaviest hitting unit is a Wolfhound WLF-2, which definitely needs to be kept in the reserves until the time is right.  My normal tactics are along the lines of Steiner Meme, so spam heavy and assault units, or small units with big guns.  Should be a fun change of pace.

[Weirdo]

I'm using Pinto WoB VTOLs, so the MML-5 will have smoke munitions instead of SRM ammo. With an MML-5 with SRM smoke munitions, I can fill a 3 inch diameter (or hex and all surrounding hexes, if we play hexes) with heavy cover for 5 rounds.

An MML-5 only generates a single hex of smoke. If you're using SRM rounds it will be heavy smoke, if you're using LRMs it will be light. In either case, your opponent will still be able to try to hit you from range. Only artillery drops multi-hex smoke. In all of the above cases, the smoke only lasts three turns.

[Simon Landmine]

As Weirdo mentions ... smoke radius got errata'd a while back. (I was looking them up for something last week, too.)

[Tangoforone]

Does Catalyst update the PDFs when they do an errata?  I just printed out the TacOps PDF from their website today to review the rules; PG. 371 of Tac Ops is what I referenced: 

"Smoke generated by Smoke SRMs will linger for a length of time equal to the size of the rack used, so an SRM-6 firing smoke rounds will create smoke for 6 turns before dissipating.

"Smoke Missiles fill a target area with a column two levels high"

"Smoke varies in density and size with damage capacity of launcher used.  Every 10 points of launcher damage, radius increases by 1 hex."  SRM-5 would do 10 points of damage, so should be three hex diameter.

I looked through Errata forums on for the Tac Ops pages and couldn't find anything about Smoke Missiles being changed.  If they did change, please provide a reference so I can know updated rules and print them for reference during game day.  Thanks!

[Weirdo]

You're looking in the old single-volume TacOps, right? That is no longer supported. You need TacOps Advanced Units and Equipment.

[Tangoforone]

Ah.  They changed books on me.  I'll look into it today I guess.  Thanks! 

[Tangoforone]

Got the new book, and I was incorrect, so I appreciate you pointing this out.  I think I'll still use this strategy.  I don't have access to smoke munitions for my artillery (GM rules), and I have been informed that it is mostly hills, with scarce trees, for the terrain.  Three rounds of heavy smoke is still pretty good (seeing as how most games only last 6 to 8 rounds anyways), and a +2, or completely obscured depending on where I lay smoke, will help my battle armor survive.  Plus there will be a ton of ammo in each Pinto for the SRMs, and I'm bringing three on the board. 

In the end, in my mind, if the enemy can't see my army then they have to get closer into the nasty terrain and smoke.  That negates their range advantage, which they would have no matter what I bring, and gives me better range advantage with TAG, vehicle, and battle armor weapons. 

And, in the end, if it's a total wipe then it would still be entertaining.  Better to lose to the Clans doing something goofy and deny them honor (not that they would give honor to Blakists) than lose to the Clans with a capable force. 

[Simon Landmine]

In the end, in my mind, if the enemy can't see my army then they have to get closer into the nasty terrain and smoke.  That negates their range advantage, which they would have no matter what I bring, and gives me better range advantage with TAG, vehicle, and battle armor weapons. 
And, in the end, if it's a total wipe then it would still be entertaining.  Better to lose to the Clans doing something goofy and deny them honor (not that they would give honor to Blakists) than lose to the Clans with a capable force.

Good luck!

As for the other question, they don't tend to update the PDFs unless they're doing a whole printing (I think the last single-volume version of TacOps was the "corrected 6th printing"). So it's often worth downloading the errata documents as well (which they're quite good at keeping up with). The v3.03 TacOps errata, which I think was the last released which referenced the old, single-volume book, was 98 pages, which is why they released a whole new edition (and split it in two while they were at it).

[Tangoforone]

This game went on today and the Word of Blake steamrolled Clan Jade Falcon. Force composition is below (I don't recall the variants):

Jade Falcon: Dire Wolf, Executioner, Summoner, Hellbringer, Uller.  All their pilots were 3/4 or better, with a total BV of around 17.5K

WoB:  2x Wolfhound, 4x Pinto VTOL, 3x Magi tanks, 4x Maxim Hover, 3 Level I of Asura Battlearmor, 2x Tengu, 2x Nephilim, 2x Djinn, 2x Se'irim.  A majority of my pilots for the vehicles were 4/5, while the battlearmor were elite 2/3.  WoB also had implants and 3 tubes of off-board artillery (I stopped using the artillery once it became clear that victory was in my grasp).

Deployment was different than I expected.  WoB already had control of the 'mountain' and were supposed to keep the Falcons off the location, so we deployed about half way up the map, in terrain that would ideally support the clan long range weaponry.  However, the SRM smoke munitions worked like a charm, with the first two rounds of movement for the Word suffering minimal damage (I think a wolfhound and one of the Magi took some superficial damage). 

Once the combat really began, the Asura, Magi, Wolfhounds, and two of the Pintos surrounded the Summoner and Hellbringer; the Hellbringer was brought down within a turn or two of fire.  The summoner was cut off from the rest of the force and decided to just push ahead to the hill, while Magi and Asura battlearmor chased after it, nearly bringing it down (they will be reprimanded, as we continued to offer Pintos to fly over to help take it down and the controlling player said he would be fine).  The Uller attempted to support, but wasn't quick enough and was cutoff by the Wolfhounds and Pintos, while from the rear the Maxims, two other Pintos and a full Level II of battlearmor were engaging it and the Executioner. With the Uller brought down next by the wolfhounds, the Executioner and Summoner being severely damaged, and the Dire Wolf falling and getting surrounded by Maxims, Jade Falcon called it there. 

I think what happened was poor placement of the Jade Falcon forces, however even if the Dire Wolf, Executioner, and Uller moved more coherently the Word of Blake had the clear advantage.  With smoke being fired as needed to provide cover (adding a +2, or not even being able to be seen), a bunch of units with Tag and Copperhead rounds being called in consistently, there was nothing the Falcons would have been able to do.  They may have delayed a turn or two more, or with better dice rolls could have put down a wolfhound and maybe another Pinto, but the numbers and equipment were on our side.

Some might say that the Jade Falcons should have brought different equipment like artillery of their own, however the opposing forces don't know what each other is bringing to the table in these scenarios, so it is hard to prepare for spam swarm tactics.

Casualties:
Jade Falcon:  Uller:  KIA.  Hellbringer:  KIA.  Summoner and Executioner:  critically damaged with the Dire Wolf soon to follow.

Word of Blake (you might not believe me, but it's pretty minimal):  1x Pinto:  KIA.  1x Level I of Djinn:  KIA.  1x Wolfhound:  bruised ego (minor armor damage).  1x Maxim:  reduced to a 4/6 mover.

All in all it was a good game and everyone seemed to have fun.  I'm glad I got to play with units that I have never used, and am fairly happy with the results.

[Weirdo]

Very nicely done!

Out of curiosity, how did the Magi perform? And were they the original models, or upgraded?

[Tangoforone]

Magi were the USCV variant.  3x medium lasers, 4x machine guns, and 6 ton infantry bay for the Asura battle armor, with c3i.

So I paired the Magi with the Asura, gave Asura boosted comms so they can join up with the c3i network.  They performed very well; that Level II took on the Summoner alone and nearly brought it down. They performed better than I expected, especially for something on open terrain against clan units.

[Simon Landmine]

Nice work!

[Elmoth]

Cool! Thanks for the report. Very interesting!

[Calimehter]

Nice work!

That was quite a lot of individual units for the Clanners to try and overcome. 

[Colt Ward]

At a guess . . . I am going to say the Falcon mechs were kitted out as mech killers?  Probably lacking ECM as well.

If this was part of a ongoing campaign (which it sounds like) this was a very good opening operation phase- you now rubbed their nose in combined arms and going forward the SHOULD bring a more balanced weapons mix.  The game would probably have been different if they had brought LBX, Plasma Cannons, or even SRMs loaded with infernoes rather than Gauss Rifles, ERPPCs and LPLs.  But against expectations of C3i, those are the type weapons I see Clan players use- fallback to big guns is normal.

Just trying to build it off BV with AM weapons . . . Dire Wolf H (2/3), Executioner Prime (2/4), Summoner A, Hellbringer Prime, and Kit Fox A (3/3) gets to that BV without having a lot of answers to a veh/BA force.  And no ECM to break up the C3i networks except on the Hellbringer which is too slow and really to vulnerable to do much to the network.

I would predict you might end up seeing the faster side of Falcon forces and Elementals in the next fight- lol, bring YOUR plasma rifles and a A4 launcher with A4-Inferno missiles.  So Fire Falcons, Black Lanners, Stormcrows, maybe Hellions, and Elementals . . . maybe a few of their 'new' designs depending on the exact date like the SRM-spewing Flamberge.

[Tangoforone]

Not an ongoing campaign, but yes, the clan player expected a fight against mechs. I believe there were some fairly unlucky rolls on the clan side, but even then they probably would only have take out a couple more pintos and maybe disable a magi. The opening salvo, which the word was able to prepare because of smoke, essentially disabled the Executioner and Hellbringer. After that the Thor was cutoff from the group, the Uller didn't have the firepower to significantly change the course of battle, and the Dire Wolf learned about hovercraft spam

[Weirdo]

If something exists, and is not explicitly disallowed by your gaming group, the results are 100% your fault if you ever field a force that isn't prepared to deal with it.

[Tangoforone]

This is true.  It's also difficult to know what to expect another player to bring.  The Clan player, unless he was on the forums and looked at this post prior to the game, would not have known that I am bringing in almost an entire division to face off against a star.  Part of it is planning out your assets, part of it is needing to adapt to what was brought as well.  I think they mostly played well and had some unfortunate rolls, though there were definitely a few tactical errors.  Primarily, they split their forces quite a bit.  Deployment had the Thor and Hellbringer on one edge, the Dire Wolf in the middle, and the Executioner and Uller on the other edge.  Perhaps would have been better to keep them together and maintain pace with the Dire Wolf so all units could engage more consistently, with maybe the Uller moving for flanking/sniping (I think it had a gauss rifle on it).

[Greatclub]

I think that part of the problem is that the defensive buff infantry got in MT/TW is really hard to counter unless you have one of the handful of pieces of equipment that counter them. Which means that in a game about mechs, everyone has to plan around a different unit.

Which if you're approaching the game casually, is a problem. Admiral Ackbar level problem, to the point that the vast majority of canon designs are critically flawed.

[Colt Ward]

I think that part of the problem is that the defensive buff infantry got in MT/TW is really hard to counter unless you have one of the handful of pieces of equipment that counter them. Which means that in a game about mechs, everyone has to plan around a different unit.

Which if you're approaching the game casually, is a problem. Admiral Ackbar level problem, to the point that the vast majority of canon designs are critically flawed.

No, the problem is the Clan player- at a guess with the mechs I looked at being 'typical' selections for those designs focused on killing other mechs.  For the timeframe the Blakist fought him, the Clan player could have had LBX, HAG, and Plasma Cannons to deal with more conventional forces . . . but folks tend to focus on how many ERPPC, Gauss Rifles and LPL they can put on the table against non-Clan forces.  One of the bigger problems was lacking Elementals or even other later Clan BA completely . . .

For taking out a LPOP location, that was also a very slow force.  Things were either too slow for their weight (DW & KFox) in that sort of running battle or were vulnerable if they had moderate speed (Executioner & Hellbringer).  Mid-Jihad, 17k against IS?  I am bringing a Binary Supernova of Clan regs.

[Precentor Scorpio]

But if you are interested in creating an opfor that would be great.  Right now I am thinking of 17,500 points Jade Falcons.

You forces can be Word of Blake, MD, or mercenaries.

Planet Skye

To:    “TASK FORCE SENTRY”
Fm:    Precentor Stilwell


“Task Force Sentry is assigned to the Paulson Plateau.  You will establish a position that will allow you to see the surrounding area.  We are expecting the Jade Falcons to attack our left flank in support of the Coalition’s general offensive.  My plan is to have “Loyal Thought III” and III “Heavy Devotion III” contain this thrust.  But I need to know where to place my troops.  Once the Clans have been contained, I will authorize your Task Force Sentry to attack the Hamlet of “Iron Ridge”. 


The Word of Blake has artillery support.
(Copperhead and high explosive shells)

So that was his briefing.  (My Falcon Watch failed me since intel was available)
At the game I thought I told him the importance of the level 4 hill and how a mech on that hill was able to see into a valley where a Jade Falcon cluster was moving through.  If the Cluster was to change direction, he was to inform HQ.

It has been probably five or six years since I used a Dire Wolf or Executioner so I thought this might be a nice game to use these mechs.  Reaching out 17 or more hexes to a target on hill might be good.  The addition of ATM's reaching out to 27?? would be even better.

My initial deployment plan was a nova but since I didn't bring any elementals i decided to improve the gunnery skills for 2000 BV rather than use tokens to represent the elementals. 
Since my mission was more destroy mechs and the primary targets would be any jump capable mechs and the mechs confined to a flat hill I figured five mechs against twelve was survivable. 

His deployment of two mechs and four helicopters wasn't a big concern.  (I don't like vtols because I think their rotors should be more fragile but oh well.)  If I destroy the vtols my chance of winning is almost guaranteed.

Well, the battle didn't go as expected and yes I got destroyed and we can agree as to several reasons why but for simplicity sake I will simply state what I truly liked or disliked about the mission.

His deployment of smoke was a nice surprise and was definitely worth the experience and should be considered for future games and events.

As discussed earlier, I am expecting to face two Level II's maybe three LvL II's.  But I was expecting to be facing more mechs.  The Dire Wolf adnd Hellbringer had pulse lasers and or LBx's so the Vtols could have been handled better.  I gambled on my deployment and he gambled on his.  In this case he won.  But now, I am tempted for any convention to create at least two forces for each side and let the players decide what force to use.  (I use BV and I truly believe that BV is pretty good at creating a reasonable fair fight for three to four hours game.)

I was unable to determine if a two turn delay was suitable for artillery use.  A three turn delay against a mobile force is almost worthless.  We tried that several times and in most cases, the rounds landed fifteen or more hexes away from any combat unit.  So the next event will have Cluster and HE shells.  (For cheap fiction purposes, the shells are rocket assisted radio controlled so now I can have the artillery pieces 15 kilometers away for cheap fiction purposes.

I should have done more to stress the importance of the observation. Point.  At the start of the game, with a Mech on the hill - You observe a cluster 30 mechs 50 KPH traveling south.  Turn two if the mech is still on the hill.  30 mechs 50 KPH traveling south. etc.  If he left the hill I would have remained silent.  Had I done this update at the beginning of the turn he might have asked "what is the cluster doing" and I would have responded "I don't know.  You left your observation point."

As the Clan Player I was to say "Katana, Katana, Katana" to tell the Cluster commander to break further east.  But I was only to say those words when I was certain the Word of Blake would not notice their change in direction and speed.  So I would say Turkina, Turkina, Turkina at the beginning of my turn and that brought some chuckles from the other side.

I don't know if creating a nova consisting of 20000 BV would be good or bad.  Sometimes; always hitting a target isn't fun either.

My home rules are 2's are automatic misses and 12's are automatic hits. I like that rule and will continue to use it.

I have a cheat sheet or a binder where I have printed off several sheets of paper thinking it will be quicker then grabbing a rule book  So I added some more sheets to my current binder so that will be helpful.

Had I inflicted some more damage it might have been more exciting/challenging for the WOB players. 

I can reuse this scenario as a blueprint for a future scenario or change the mission to rescue the troops on the observation point, etc.

I was going to award the Word of Blake bonus points if he used the artillery against the cluster in the valley.  He might not have hit anything, but incoming artillery fire would have disrupted the Clan formation.

Overall, a good learning experience and I think everyone had fun. 

[whistler]

Nice AAO! And well played on your part.

The Blakist force was definitely one I would run. Personally I would have opted for on-board artillery, but thats me.

Still, looks like it would have been a fun game, wish I could have played it myself!