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Author Topic: Original Thumper Rules?  (Read 1921 times)

Syzyx

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Original Thumper Rules?
« on: 04 November 2021, 10:25:38 »
So, in the creeping fog I call my memory I am convinced that the Thumper artillery piece at one point had a rule where it forced a piloting to those in its area of effect. Am I crazy or can someone point me to where that rule was printed?
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #1 on: 04 November 2021, 11:15:59 »
I don't recall that ever being a rule specific to the Thumper.  Any battlemech hit for 20 points of damage or more must make a PSR.  The current Thumper doesn't do that much damage, with 15 in the hex of impact and 5 in adjacent hexes.  The Sniper does, though.
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Empyrus

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #2 on: 04 November 2021, 11:31:30 »
Shoot the Thumper at something with Reflective Armor and it will be making PSR  ;D
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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #3 on: 04 November 2021, 12:32:06 »
Shoot the Thumper at something with Reflective Armor and it will be making PSR  ;D

I can't remember - are PSRs forced by the unmodified damage value of the attack, or armor points lost?  So a unit with hardened armor taking a Sniper hit wouldn't have to make a PSR, but a unit with standard armor would have to?  Or both have to make a PSR regardless due to the damage value of the attack?
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Empyrus

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #4 on: 04 November 2021, 13:33:40 »
I can't remember - are PSRs forced by the unmodified damage value of the attack, or armor points lost?  So a unit with hardened armor taking a Sniper hit wouldn't have to make a PSR, but a unit with standard armor would have to?  Or both have to make a PSR regardless due to the damage value of the attack?
Damage threshold counts armor and internal structures filled.
For example, hardened armor requires 40 points of damage applies before PSR happens, because each hit is only half a circle.
Since Reactive takes double damage from AE damage type like Thumper, PSR should happen.
Of course, i think one may end up with a weird case where some of damage hits locations with no more armor, ie internal damage, so the 20 "damage" threshold might not happen.

EDIT Unclear if Reinforced Structure functions like Hardened for damage threshold PSR. BMM says "Each point of reinforced
structure can sustain two points of damage."
Contrast to Hardened: "Two points of damage are required to destroy each point of hardened armor (this only counts as one point of damage for PSR purposes)"
Reflective Armor says damage from certain effects is doubled, so the 20 point-threshold is met quickly.
« Last Edit: 04 November 2021, 13:40:26 by Empyrus »
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #5 on: 04 November 2021, 17:10:34 »
That could get real fun with patchwork armor  ;D
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Empyrus

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #6 on: 04 November 2021, 17:12:51 »
That could get real fun with patchwork armor  ;D
"Ah yes, you destroyed my left leg armor which was reflective, but my right leg, reactive, is basically unharmed..."
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CVB

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #7 on: 04 November 2021, 17:17:08 »
"Ah yes, you destroyed my left leg armor which was reflective, but my right leg, reactive, is basically unharmed..."

't was just a flesh wound!  :))
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DevianID

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #8 on: 04 November 2021, 18:46:38 »
The original thumper also did 5 ae damage instead of 15; all the artillery followed the damage/ton of autocannons at 5 for 20 shots, 10 for 10 shots, and 20 for 5 shots on the long tom.

Cannonshop

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #9 on: 06 November 2021, 14:36:37 »
The original thumper also did 5 ae damage instead of 15; all the artillery followed the damage/ton of autocannons at 5 for 20 shots, 10 for 10 shots, and 20 for 5 shots on the long tom.

to expand on DevianID's point:

Original damage profiles:

Thumper: 5 center, 2 splash
Sniper:  10 center, 5 splash
Long Tom: 20 center, 10 splash (Optional from compendium was 20/10/5)
Arrow IV: same as Long Tom.

these were the standard damages that were compared when the Aerotech rules were being integrated into Total Warfare-that is, the damage profiles we were using for comparison.  When artillery was moved to Tac Ops, they increased all of these, but didn't readjust their bomb damage, thus a situation where a one ton HE bomb does LESS damage than a quarter ton of Arrow IV (and if you were to delete the propellant, even LESS warhead on the Arrow or LT, maybe as little as 50 kilos of explosive versus nearly a ton doing MORE damage THAN said ton.)

Insofar as I am aware, there's never been an errata about that, because...reasons.  Arty got a lot more powerful under TacOps than it was before.

a fairly major part of THAT was having to port the MWDA artillery stats over-Dark Age made Artillery ridonkulously powerful, and to keep the numbers from rupturing brains, Catalyst had to match the effects of the Klikky game to at least SOMEWHAT of an extent.
« Last Edit: 06 November 2021, 14:39:10 by Cannonshop »
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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #10 on: 06 November 2021, 18:20:57 »
The Sniper is my go-to artillery piece for custom designs now because of the 20-damage buff.
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DevianID

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #11 on: 08 November 2021, 03:16:49 »
I prefer the original artillery damages to the new values.  The Battlevalue also seems to match the old values:  A Thumper is 43, sniper 85, arrow 240, long tom 368.
Currently, two 15 damage thumpers equal 86 BV, while 1 20 damage sniper equals 85 BV... This makes no sense.
Two 5 damage thumpers (old rules) equaling one 10 damage sniper (old rules) for 86 versus 85 BV makes total sense, and has got to be what the weapon's battle value was ACTUALLY calculated on, before they inflated the damage for no reason.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #12 on: 08 November 2021, 03:36:05 »
To answer the original question, I went through the earliest editions of the artillery rules I have access to (eighties era battletech manual and mechwarrior 1st edition) and I couldn't find any reference to such a rule.

I'm already confident it wasn't in any ruleset after that. So if such a rule exists it's most likely in something like Battletechnology or the Tactical Handbook.
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VhenRa

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #13 on: 09 November 2021, 02:55:37 »
Damage threshold counts armor and internal structures filled.
For example, hardened armor requires 40 points of damage applies before PSR happens, because each hit is only half a circle.
Technically, it can require more then 40. Because you can be left with half destroyed armor points. Two medium laser impacts in two different locations as far as I can tell only counts as 4 out of the 20 required for a PSR.

Insofar as I am aware, there's never been an errata about that, because...reasons.  Arty got a lot more powerful under TacOps than it was before.
Actually, the current Arty rules are from Maximum Tech originally as an optional rule for improved artillery. They became the standard artillery rules under TacOps.

a fairly major part of THAT was having to port the MWDA artillery stats over-Dark Age made Artillery ridonkulously powerful, and to keep the numbers from rupturing brains, Catalyst had to match the effects of the Klikky game to at least SOMEWHAT of an extent.
They predate MWDA by 5-6 years.

Cannonshop

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #14 on: 09 November 2021, 23:39:14 »
Technically, it can require more then 40. Because you can be left with half destroyed armor points. Two medium laser impacts in two different locations as far as I can tell only counts as 4 out of the 20 required for a PSR.
Actually, the current Arty rules are from Maximum Tech originally as an optional rule for improved artillery. They became the standard artillery rules under TacOps.
They predate MWDA by 5-6 years.

The integration into Tac Ops didn't.  MWDA ran with every piece of Munchimum Teck they could pull off the pages from day one, and Fanpro/Catalyst had to follow suit because of who owned the rights.

(if you can't tell, I've never been a big fan of Maxtech or the other level 3 rules compilations-half the time they were unavailable or out of print when I was running demo games, and I don't photocopy whole sourcebooks and never have.)

but as I noted, the aerial bombing rules were balanced against the OLD artillery rules from BMR for Total Warfare, thus we have a situation where a one ton air-dropped bomb does significantly less damage than a fifth-of-a-ton of Long Tom ammunition that still has to have the propellant worked into the mass *which the bombs don't.  That should be entirely casing and explosive filler-the stuff that actually DOES the damage.

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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #15 on: 10 November 2021, 07:19:09 »
but as I noted, the aerial bombing rules were balanced against the OLD artillery rules from BMR for Total Warfare, thus we have a situation where a one ton air-dropped bomb does significantly less damage than a fifth-of-a-ton of Long Tom ammunition that still has to have the propellant worked into the mass *which the bombs don't.  That should be entirely casing and explosive filler-the stuff that actually DOES the damage.

This makes me want half-ton or quarter-ton bombs now  :drool:
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DevianID

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #16 on: 10 November 2021, 09:47:47 »
The cluster bomb is kinda like a bunch of small 1/8th ton bombs, though the HE bomb is a bit anemic, and probably should be 1/2 ton cargo weight for 1 bomb slot, like the RL10.

Syzyx

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #17 on: 10 November 2021, 11:27:48 »
The old bombs from AT1 may be what you're looking for. Though they aren't defined by mass, they give a great deal more options for what you can splatter people with.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #18 on: 10 November 2021, 12:00:50 »
One other thing to note, BMR had different flight times for Tube vs A4.
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Charistoph

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #19 on: 10 November 2021, 12:22:44 »
Technically, it can require more then 40. Because you can be left with half destroyed armor points. Two medium laser impacts in two different locations as far as I can tell only counts as 4 out of the 20 required for a PSR.

Nope, it would be 5.  You don't round with Hardened Armor like you do with Reflective.  The instructions are to specifically mark the damage as half marks, it is not rounded.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #20 on: 10 November 2021, 12:51:41 »
No, what he is saying is that if a ML hit a CT and a RT each torso would have 2.5 bubbles marked off, but it takes full bubbles to count.  So while it might have effectively been a total of 5 points of damage from the two hits, because it was on different locations it is- for PSR purposes- 4 points of damage in the goal of 20.
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VhenRa

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #21 on: 10 November 2021, 18:52:01 »
No, what he is saying is that if a ML hit a CT and a RT each torso would have 2.5 bubbles marked off, but it takes full bubbles to count.  So while it might have effectively been a total of 5 points of damage from the two hits, because it was on different locations it is- for PSR purposes- 4 points of damage in the goal of 20.

Exactly. Half destroyed bubbles don't count for PSR. If a Swayback with it's 8 medium lasers hit you with everything but manages to spray it's fire across eight hit locations [IE: a hit on HD, CT, RT, LT, RA, LA, RL, LL] it will inflict 40 points of damage... but will only mark off 16 armor bubbles in total [assuming your mech was pristine originally] and thus won't inflict a PSR.

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #22 on: 10 November 2021, 19:31:18 »
Talk about a worst case scenario!  8)

VhenRa

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #23 on: 10 November 2021, 20:26:12 »
Well, yeah. But it gets the point across.

I just rolled 2d6 8 times and consulted the hit location table. Got two to left arm, left leg and central torso, one to left torso and one to right leg. A more realistic scenario.

5 bubbles, 5 bubbles, 5 bubbles, 2.5 bubbles, 2.5 bubbles. So grand total of 19 bubbles entirely knocked off... so no PSR.

Daryk

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Re: Original Thumper Rules?
« Reply #24 on: 10 November 2021, 21:18:11 »
And that is pretty much the point of Hardened Armor...  ^-^

 

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