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Author Topic: Mechanized Infantry weights  (Read 1013 times)

Wolf72

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Mechanized Infantry weights
« on: 24 November 2022, 09:50:25 »
Ok, so I think I knew this at one time ... but now I've lost that info.  Hoping for a V8 moment.

The new mechanized units in Tac Ops are Microlite, VToL, & Scuba

the table in the back gives the following:

Scuba            +.9      (so a Mechanized Scuba trooper weight is 1.9t?  Standard Mechanized units are 1.0t.)

Microlite         1.4t or 1.5t  the table in the index lists 1.4t, while the description under the entry of specialized units has a paragraph that says they are 1.5t.  iirc you don't pay the .1 trooper for mechanized, they all are 1.0 -- unless going Scuba/MicroLite/MicroCopter.

MicroCopter    1.9t or 2.0t -- same as above.

this is all w/o any additional specializations.

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AlphaMirage

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #1 on: 24 November 2022, 10:15:40 »
Standard SCUBA adds 0.05 tons per trooper. Mechanized SCUBA adds 0.1 tons per trooper. I want to say that the given scale is wrong for the VTOL troops with microlites adding 1.4 tons per trooper (or 2.8 tons per squad) and microcopters adding 1.9 per trooper (or 7.6 tons per squad).

Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #2 on: 24 November 2022, 11:08:30 »
Standard SCUBA adds 0.1 tons per trooper. Mechanized SCUBA adds .1 tons per trooper. I want to say that the given scale is wrong for the VTOL troops with microlites adding 1.4 tons per trooper (or 2.8 tons per squad) and microcopters adding 1.9 per trooper (or 7.6 tons per squad).

think you're missing a column/row there ... standard foot scuba is +.05, motorized is +.1 (so a non anti-mech motorized platoon should be .195 +.1 = .295, anti-mech trained would be .21 + .1 = .31 tons/trooper) ...
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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #3 on: 24 November 2022, 14:27:30 »
I think you're missing a "per trooper" somewhere in there...  ???

Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #4 on: 24 November 2022, 20:23:09 »
right ... everything is per/trooper.  so standard Scuba platoon .085+.05 = .135 x 30 = 4.05 tons rounded to 4.5 tons for transport weight. (for example)

but still waiting for that "dug, I missed that" on the newer mechanized units. ... did they mean for the 1.4 and 1.9 to be added to standard foot trooper, bringing it to 1.5 and 2.0 tons/trooper.  Which seems odd since regular mechanized holds at 1.0 tons/trooper.

Then also got screwed up Scuba Mechanized which says + .9t/trooper which would be added to a regular trooper (at .1t for a total of 1t/trooper) or a mechanized (at 1.9t/trooper)?  I put mine at 1.9 and I think that might be wrong now.

Wait ... wait one moment.  let me check MML ...

MML puts the VToL troops at 1.4/trooper and 1.9/trooper (with rounding up to the next 1/2 ton)

Scuba at .925t / trooper.  hmmm .9t x 20 troopers is 18t, MML rounds it up to 18.5 somehow ... not sure where that .025t/trooper comes in.

« Last Edit: 24 November 2022, 20:45:39 by Wolf72 »
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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #5 on: 24 November 2022, 20:50:58 »
Did you check an anti-mech box somewhere? ???

Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #6 on: 24 November 2022, 20:53:33 »
nope,

anti-mek is disabled when selecting mechanized. (mechanized troops can not make anti-mech attacks ... I mean other than shooting at them)

I'm loosing it ... now it is at 18.0 tons. so MML is saying that Scuba Mechanized is .9t/trooper.  [Takei] Oh My [/Takei]

It's enough for me to go with the .9, 1.4 and 1.9 sans extra training.
« Last Edit: 24 November 2022, 20:56:23 by Wolf72 »
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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #7 on: 24 November 2022, 20:55:26 »
Then I have no idea where the extra is coming from, sorry...  :-\

Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #8 on: 24 November 2022, 21:11:42 »
Then I have no idea where the extra is coming from, sorry...  :-\

edited above post ... it's just me loosing more of my mind, and probably shouldn't be geeking after full meal!
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Sartris

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #9 on: 24 November 2022, 21:14:22 »
Have you tried reverse engineering the scuba infantry from TRO 3085?

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Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #10 on: 24 November 2022, 21:43:58 »
nope,

do not have that TRO available.  (Have TO full pdf, and TO arms/equipment book)

If I look at Sarna.net ... the mechanized scuba unit is 20t ... it should be 18t (well, at least I think it should) as it does not have any specializations. .9t/trooper x 20 troopers = 18t

the motorized unit (frogmen) is listed as a platoon of 12 with two 6 man squads (and 2 support weapons, which do not add weight) ...
that should be .195 (motorized, no-antimech) + .1 (scuba) = .295t/trooper x 12 = 3.54t round to 4.0 tons.  Sarna listing is at 3t transport.

we need* that Infantry TRO from the "prob loose money" thread! (*not an actual need!)
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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #11 on: 24 November 2022, 22:48:32 »
i have made inquiries to powerful arcane sentiences with appropriate knowledge

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #12 on: 25 November 2022, 07:59:25 »
The additional mass is added to the basic trooper (.085).

.9 +.085 = .985
.985 * 20 = 19.7
19.7 rounds to 20

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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #13 on: 25 November 2022, 08:28:59 »
This is why you're a hero, good sir!  :thumbsup:

Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #14 on: 25 November 2022, 09:01:06 »
The additional mass is added to the basic trooper (.085).

.9 +.085 = .985
.985 * 20 = 19.7
19.7 rounds to 20

"ee's a witch!"

Ok, also assuming that goes for VToL mechanized then, too? (1.485 & 1.985 tons/trooper)

and the icing for the cake (optional), does ... wait, as I'm typing it makes less sense, so closing that door on myself!

time for some simple readjustments to my .doc file about infantry units, their squad size and mass, their platoon size and mass, their compartment transport weight and their bay numbers (a bit silly actually, each squad bay holds up to 7 troopers ... just some notes that carrying a 12-man platoon would put 6 each in a squad bay instead of 5 & 7 and stuff like that since not all mechanized platoons are set up in 7 man squads)
« Last Edit: 25 November 2022, 09:04:51 by Wolf72 »
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RifleMech

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #15 on: 28 November 2022, 22:58:22 »
For TacOps infantry, it's TM infantry weight (+modifiers) + TO infantry weight (+modifiers) x # of infantry = total platoon weight.

However, I would like to point out this from TacOps page 136.
Quote
The term “mechanized” as it is applied to these infantry is technically a misnomer. Other mechanized troop types (hover, wheeled and tracked) are deployed utilizing full-scale vehicles. As such, technically, these specific troop type should be classified as “motorized,” but standard usage by most militaries terms them mechanized.

So Mechanized VTOL Infantry should use the base weight for a Motorized Infantry Trooper.

A Micro-Copter Platoon it'd be;
Motorized Infantry .195 + 1.9 Micro-Copter = 2.095 per trooper x 16 troopers = 33.52 tons rounded up to 34. The VTOL Infantry in TRO:3085 page 221 weigh 34 tons. Other modifiers would of course increase that weight.

I believe the 1.5 and 2 ton weights for MicroVTOL infantry are an error. The canon example we have for Micro-Copter Infantry weight is 34 tons. Using the same formula at +2 tons per trooper, the platoon ends up weighing 35.12 tons.


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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #16 on: 29 November 2022, 00:33:03 »
the VTOL platoon from TRO 3085 in question weighs 32 tons (barring errata I may have missed) http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3457/vtol-infantry-hachiman-taro-enterprise-extraction-force

2 tons per trooper (.1 dude + 1.9 micro-copter spec) * 16 troopers = 32 tons

The weights on pg 152 of TO:AUE are not in error. The construction rules list 1.5 (microlite) and 2 (microcopter). That's .1 for the trooper and +1.4/1.9 respectively on top of the weight of the trooper per the tables in the back.

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RifleMech

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #17 on: 29 November 2022, 02:15:52 »
Maybe I missed a couple errata?  ???   TRO:3085 has the Micro-Copter platoon weighing 34 tons. 16 motorized troopers weigh 3.12 tons. 16 Micro-Copters weigh 30.4 tons. I get 33.52 tons when adding them together.


I wonder if they used the weight for Foot Infantry instead of Motorized? 16 Foot Infantry at .085 = 1.36 tons. Add in the Copters at 30,4 tons and I get 31.76. Which would round to 32 tons. I think that might be where the error is.

I'm not sure about the Submersible Mechanized Infantry in TRO3085 Supplemental either. The book and MUL say they weigh 20 tons. TM puts Mechanized Infantry at 1 ton per trooper. Submersible Mechanized Infantry add .9 per trooper. Shouldn't the platoon weigh 38 tons?  ???







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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #18 on: 29 November 2022, 02:26:10 »
Maybe I missed a couple errata?  ???   TRO:3085 has the Micro-Copter platoon weighing 34 tons. 16 motorized troopers weigh 3.12 tons. 16 Micro-Copters weigh 30.4 tons. I get 33.52 tons when adding them together. I wonder if they used the weight for Foot Infantry instead of Motorized? 16 Foot Infantry at .085 = 1.36 tons. Add in the Copters at 30,4 tons and I get 31.76. Which would round to 32 tons. I think that might be where the error is.

nope. i'm looking right at it both in print and PDF. it's 32 tons. (.1 + 1.9) * 16. the construction rules in TO:AUE are clear it's 2 tons per trooper for the micro-copter


Quote
I'm not sure about the Submersible Mechanized Infantry in TRO3085 Supplemental either. The book and MUL say they weigh 20 tons. TM puts Mechanized Infantry at 1 ton per trooper. Submersible Mechanized Infantry add .9 per trooper. Shouldn't the platoon weigh 38 tons?  ???

The scuba is (.1 + .9) * 20.

those are the correct calculations. the additional weight per trooper is added to a dude (.1). Anything else is going to give you the wrong numbers.

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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #19 on: 29 November 2022, 04:28:17 »
So the micro-copter unit has anti-mech training? ???

RifleMech

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #20 on: 29 November 2022, 05:14:18 »
nope. i'm looking right at it both in print and PDF. it's 32 tons. (.1 + 1.9) * 16. the construction rules in TO:AUE are clear it's 2 tons per trooper for the micro-copter

The scuba is (.1 + .9) * 20.

those are the correct calculations. the additional weight per trooper is added to a dude (.1). Anything else is going to give you the wrong numbers.


[/quote]

Did they change that? Mine says the transport weight for VTOL Infantry is 34 tons.

Is TacOps even using the right weights? The weights in TM for infantry units by type changed. I think they're still using 1st editions TM weights.


The Weights table on page 155 of 1st Ed TM
Foot 0.1 ton
Motorized 0.21 ton
Jump 0.18 ton


The weights in 4th Ed TM
Foot 0.085 ton
Motorized 0.195 ton
Jump 0.165 ton

That's going to give different results in weight. We can see that in the example on page 154 of TO.

Quote
The Added Tons value establishes additional weight over and above the infantry unit’s Motive Type (see p. 155, TM). For Combat Engineers and Marines, the base per trooper weight varies with the Motive Type chosen (0.1 ton for Foot, 0.21 for Motorized, 0.18 for Jump, 1 for Hover/Tracked/Wheeled Mechanized, 1.5 for Microlite VTOL and 2 for Microcopter VTOL), while other specializations presume a base weight of 0.1 ton per trooper.

Please note the old TM weights.

Quote
For example, a Motorized Marine Combat Engineer has a per-trooper weight of 0.21 (Motorized) + 0 (Marine) + 0.1 (Combat Engineer) tons, or 0.31 tons for each trooper.

Using 4th Ed TM we get different numbers.
Weight of 0.195 ton (Motorized) + 0 (Marine) + 0.1 (Combat Engineer) tons, or .295 tons for each trooper. 

Does a 20 trooper Motorized Combat Engineer Platoon weigh 6.2 tons or 5.9 tons?  ???


Also the base weight of 1.5 and 2 for VTOL infantry is listed specifically for Combat Engineers and Marines. Other Specialized Infantry end up being the same though. But what about non specialized infantry? Do we use TM base weights +1.4 or +1.9 to create VTOL Infantry? If so, do we use Foot or Motorized Infantry weights?

Right now, I'm thinking it'd be easier if VTOL just started at 1.4 and 1.9 tons. Forget the +. Make those the base and then add to them. So a Micro-Copter Combat Engineering Platoon would weight, 1.9 tons + .1 tons x 20 troopers = 40 tons while a regular 16 trooper Micro-Copter Platoon would weight 1.9 tons per trooper = 30.4 (31) tons. I would also change the .1 for other Specialized Infantry to the .085 tons of Foot Infantry.

The Infantry might need a checking over too. If they haven't already. Besides VTOL Infantry weighing 34 tons, my TRO:3085 has HALO Paratroopers and SpecOps Paratroopers having 21 men in their platoons. TO limits Paratrooper Platoons to a max of 20 troopers. Those platoons have 1 trooper too many. That extra trooper also raises their transport weight 1 ton. They weigh 4 tons but 20 Paratroopers should only weight 3 tons.

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #21 on: 29 November 2022, 07:11:31 »
So the micro-copter unit has anti-mech training? ???

I assume they rounded up to .1 to make the math more clean





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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #22 on: 29 November 2022, 18:28:50 »
Clean math is a reason to ignore the rules? Cool...  ::)

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #23 on: 29 November 2022, 18:41:47 »
i can see i'm no longer of use here. carry on

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #24 on: 29 November 2022, 18:48:40 »
Rog... when it rises to a "Rules Question", someone will post it there.

Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #25 on: 29 November 2022, 21:09:56 »
given the weights of 1.5 vs 1.485 or 2.0 vs 1.985, there is no discernible difference for squad or platoon carrying capacity. 

Scuba is also works out as no change with 1.0 vs 0.985 ...

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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #26 on: 29 November 2022, 21:30:37 »
It's 0.015 ton per trooper, not platoon...  ???

Wolf72

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #27 on: 29 November 2022, 22:14:17 »
It's 0.015 ton per trooper, not platoon...  ???

right, should have explained that more ... when you multiply that out for squads (by 4 for microcopter, by 2 for microlite) then by 4 again for platoon the end weight doesn't really change after rounding.

Squads
Microlite (2 troopers):  2 x 1.485 = 2.97 tons rounded to 3.0 tons. (x4 for platoon is 11.88 rounded to 12)

Microcopter (4 troops): 4 x 1.985 = 7.94 rounded to 8.0 tons. (x4 for platoon: 31.74 rounded 32)

Scuba (5 trooops): 5 x .985 = 4.925 to 5.0 tons (x4 for platoon: 19.7 rounded to 20)


I just wanted to know what the official weights really were.  the .1/trooper seemed odd because other mechanized troops are just given a straight 1.0t per trooper (before any specialties) and the new TM errata/updates made Anti-mech a specialty which was not available to mechanized to begin with.  (although, what if they all dismount and go regular foot ... because ... reasons).

It'd be cool to get a full answer, but at the moment it works either way for a .1 or a .085.

I think the only specialties that you can add to mechanized are Combat Engineers.  That weight modifier might make a difference.


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Daryk

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #28 on: 30 November 2022, 04:15:58 »
Saw your rules question... good luck!  :thumbsup:

RifleMech

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Re: Mechanized Infantry weights
« Reply #29 on: 30 November 2022, 15:38:22 »
I hope we get an answer. :)