Register Register

Author Topic: Of Fireflys and Fleas  (Read 2028 times)

Goose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1031
  • … the Laws on his tail, burning for home …
    • Home of HeavyMetal Pro
Of Fireflys and Fleas
« on: 14 August 2020, 16:40:43 »
Is (or was) there any body of thought on these designs?

As much help as I need getting my head around one or the other, how does one unit desire both?
Goose
The Egyptian God of FrustrationSurprisingly Enlightening©Not Write: Post Good!
"I am always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught."
- Winston ChurchillThus Yorinaga Kurita threw his daishō out of the cockpit of his Warhammer in disgust

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9255
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #1 on: 14 August 2020, 16:47:29 »
Cheap garrison mechs?

Support for Infantry?

Neither is a favorite of mine.

The Firefly would be a solid alternative to the Valkyrie if they didn't skimp on the JJ's.

Flea pretty much sucks but I am looking for a version of it to like since I acquired the mini for it a while back & trying to find a reason to field it.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Firesprocket

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2583
  • I like sausage
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #2 on: 14 August 2020, 16:50:51 »
I wrote the MoTW on the Firefly so I have some bias.  It's a solid design for it's time.  It doesn't age well however.  Even still it is cheap and has limited applications in a DA setting.  In a periphery setting where there is little more than light and medium mechs, it is solid.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 35640
  • Carpe Arcanum Cibum
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #3 on: 14 August 2020, 19:42:35 »
The Firefly has a very different mission profile than the Valkyrie. It's not a fire support machine, it's a berserk brawler that flays you alive with lasers, and happens to have a token long-range weapon for getting in those early hits or providing light idf support to buddies.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Ruger

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4606
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #4 on: 14 August 2020, 22:09:07 »
The Firefly has a very different mission profile than the Valkyrie. It's not a fire support machine, it's a berserk brawler that flays you alive with lasers, and happens to have a token long-range weapon for getting in those early hits or providing light idf support to buddies.

Or smoke to cover its advance.

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

Sartris

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12902
  • Semi-Sentient MUL Roomba
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #5 on: 14 August 2020, 22:40:29 »
i remember i had a flea in one of my first games

the order of reaction went something like

Large Laser  :)
CT Armor:  :-\

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7908
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #6 on: 15 August 2020, 05:30:30 »
Yeah, if you've got less armor then a LRM Carrier you've got a problem, and the LRM Carrier, for all it's sins is a glass cannon, the Flea is just made of glass. Think about that for a second, when QUICKSCELL of all people is making a better design then you, you know you've mucked up.

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2406
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #7 on: 15 August 2020, 06:24:06 »
Controlled fires for forestry management?

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1767
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #8 on: 15 August 2020, 09:54:53 »
 It is fun to see the look on a Lyran player's face when your Flea picks off 2 Commandos. They can rectify this with a Wolfhound.

dgorsman

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1312
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #9 on: 15 August 2020, 11:02:35 »
The Flea is the BattleTech version of the AT-ST.   Something not as powerful as a full-sized walker that can back up your bad-guy stormtroopers when facing off against the valiant player rebels, and make a satisfying 'pop' when you shoot it.
Think about it.  It's what we do.
- The Society

Thunder LRMs: the gift that keeps on giving.  They're the glitter of the BattleTech universe.

RifleMech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2043
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #10 on: 16 August 2020, 09:03:53 »
I like both the Flea and the Firefly. I think they're good compliments to the other Bug Mechs.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21437
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #11 on: 17 August 2020, 12:53:54 »
As others have said, the Firefly is fine in the Star League era . . .

 . . . but it needs a engine overhaul along with the guts in the Invasion & later eras.  Get it moving at least 7/11 where it cannot be run down by heavies like the Anvil, Quickdraw, Falconer or Thanatos let alone most mediums and it becomes workable but still better off going after secondary & tertiary targets where it can wreck light vehs, repair depots and more.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2240
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #12 on: 19 August 2020, 12:02:43 »
The Firefly is adequate as a general-purpose 'Mech in a low-intensity setting such as counter-insurgency work facing light vehicles and infantry, or as part of a larger group.  Once the going gets tough, the Firefly cannot outrun many of the things it can't outgun.

The Flea is fairly decent against 20T "bug" opponents, but no match for a heavier unit.  The best use I've ever gotten out of a Flea was as battlefield salvage, strictly for parts.

massey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #13 on: 19 August 2020, 14:41:47 »
The Flea is the BattleTech version of the AT-ST.   Something not as powerful as a full-sized walker that can back up your bad-guy stormtroopers when facing off against the valiant player rebels, and make a satisfying 'pop' when you shoot it.

This is exactly right.  It's a fairly cheap mech that provides extra firepower to infantry forces.  It's not that good in classic Battletech, but in a Mechwarrior scale campaign it's terrifying.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7908
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #14 on: 23 August 2020, 07:09:53 »
The Firefly is adequate as a general-purpose 'Mech in a low-intensity setting such as counter-insurgency work facing light vehicles and infantry, or as part of a larger group.  Once the going gets tough, the Firefly cannot outrun many of the things it can't outgun.
Here's the thing, in that kind of setup I'd rather just use a vehicle, like a modified Heavy Hover APC.

RifleMech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2043
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #15 on: 23 August 2020, 18:45:15 »
Wouldn't that depend on terrain since mechs can go places hovers can't?

Rockjock

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #16 on: 23 August 2020, 20:03:39 »
The Firefly I actually like.  It is cheap in the scheme of things, usable in most situations to fill out a lance, but I agree that past the tech revolution it has issues. 

The Flea......infantry support is about it.     

Now the Falcon.....can be the king of the bugs.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7908
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #17 on: 24 August 2020, 20:11:11 »
Wouldn't that depend on terrain since mechs can go places hovers can't?
Given that Kovax is saying he'll use it either in support of or against vehicles and infantry I'm guessing that he isn't planing on using it situations where a vehicles can go.

RifleMech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2043
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #18 on: 24 August 2020, 22:40:10 »
Could be but even in places vehicles can go Mechs do have some mobility advantages.

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21437
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #19 on: 25 August 2020, 10:02:45 »
Would the Firefly be more acceptable if it went 7/11/? after 3050?
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7908
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #20 on: 25 August 2020, 20:40:25 »
Would the Firefly be more acceptable if it went 7/11/? after 3050?
It's not speed that's the real issue, it's lack of armor and weapons.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 35640
  • Carpe Arcanum Cibum
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #21 on: 25 August 2020, 22:59:33 »
I think that's the first time anyone has ever accused the Firefly of being fragile or undergunned.

There are very good reasons why nobody else has said that.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Colt Ward

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21437
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #22 on: 26 August 2020, 01:08:10 »
Yeah, its got pretty good armor for a light . . . but it needs to avoid being hit more.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Sartris

  • Battletech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12902
  • Semi-Sentient MUL Roomba
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #23 on: 26 August 2020, 01:17:15 »
literally every variant has max armor or one point from maximum. the 4A is undersinked, though it can pop something at close range for 27 damage if it has to, which is more than a wolfhound. it's the speed that's the problem once the +3 running mod is devalued by pulse


vaderi

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Halfbearded Pirate
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #24 on: 26 August 2020, 03:23:59 »
I admit to liking the Flea, though at least some of that is due to MechCommander 2 and the FireAnt variant. The other reason is that one campaign game I was part of had the best pilot in the Merc Company generate a Flea as his family mech :P

The Flea really benefits from the tech renaissance, especially in campaign games, but yeah the only place you'll find a Flea being intimidating is in Mechwarrior scale fights.
Steiner, where money and mediocrity meet caring.

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2240
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #25 on: 31 August 2020, 11:38:50 »
I picked up most of a Flea miniature in a box of parts, and turned it into a battlefield wreck.  That makes a good mission goal for a Mechwarrior-scale engagement: a squad or two of infantry and a couple of lightly armed vehicles fighting over a juicy piece of salvage.

Greatclub

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1585
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #26 on: 31 August 2020, 23:35:38 »
I think that's the first time anyone has ever accused the Firefly of being fragile or undergunned.

There are very good reasons why nobody else has said that.

In the succession wars, especially with canon designs, it's a bruiser among lights. But...

When I think of Firefly, the one that comes to mind is the -4DA in Wolf and Blake. It's lancemates are a Talon, Wolfhound and Locust. Compared to the other three, which are good variants, it is undersinked (and thus underarmed,) short-ranged and entirely too bloody slow. Armor is about as good as it can be for weight. Unfortunately, it can reasonably expect to run into mediums as fast or faster than it is.

I consider the thing a deathtrap for the guy who boosts the initiative of the recon lance.
« Last Edit: 07 October 2020, 00:54:52 by Greatclub »

dgorsman

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1312
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #27 on: 01 September 2020, 11:44:28 »
Definitely an SLDF design.  With an army that large, they can afford to have lances or companies of slow specialists like this assigned to provide firepower to infantry formations, and faster units for independent scouting, and units in between for general combat.
Think about it.  It's what we do.
- The Society

Thunder LRMs: the gift that keeps on giving.  They're the glitter of the BattleTech universe.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 35640
  • Carpe Arcanum Cibum
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #28 on: 01 September 2020, 12:23:08 »
In the succession wars, especially with canon designs, it's a bruiser among lights. But...

When I think of Firefly, the one that comes to mind is the -4DA in Wolf and Blake. It's lancemates are a Talon, Wolfhound and Locust. Compared to the other three, which are good variants, it is undersinked (and thus underarmed) and entirely too bloody slow. Armor is about as good as it can be for weight. Unfortunately, it can reasonably expect to run into mediums as fast or faster than it is.

I consider the thing a deathtrap for the guy who boosts the initiative of the recon lance.

That's not an indictment of the Firefly, it's an indictment of the commander that assigned it to one of the worst possible jobs they possibly could have for that mech.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9255
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #29 on: 09 September 2020, 10:56:36 »
And is a 5/8/4 really that much worse off than a 6/9/0 Wolfhound when it comes to speed?

Assuming those were the movement rates that I'm thinking off. 

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo