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Author Topic: Of Fireflys and Fleas  (Read 1766 times)

Goose

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #30 on: 09 September 2020, 13:24:53 »
Every movement point is precious, and not just within recon …
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Getz

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #31 on: 09 September 2020, 17:25:51 »
There are Fleas and there are Fleas.

Of the succession wars Fleas, the FLE-4 is awful but the FLE-15 is quite decent as a light infantry hunter and two medium lasers on 20 tonner is nothing to complain about.

The FLE-17 is rather underwhelming, but the FLE-16 is very nice - two medium lasers again, but this time with a 9/14 movement profile.

I've no experience of the FLE-19 and 20, but they look good on paper.

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RifleMech

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #32 on: 11 September 2020, 04:22:21 »
I like the LLaser on the FLE-4 for sniping at other bug mechs and bug hunters.

Weirdo

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #33 on: 11 September 2020, 08:56:03 »
There's certainly something to be said for being able to hit with a larger damage cluster than any other 20-tonner in the entire setting. I think the FLE-4 wasn't toppled from that pedestal until the Wasp-C came out just recently.

As you say, it's great for hunting Bugs and other bottom-tier lights.

When did the FLE-4 come out? I imagine AoW tankers would have been utterly terrified of a machine that fast carrying a gun that could punch clean through their armor.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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Sartris

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #34 on: 11 September 2020, 09:15:32 »
about 2500, so on the tail end of the primitive equipment era

Weirdo

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #35 on: 11 September 2020, 11:09:17 »
Hmmm... A decent-sized Estevez vs Flea scenario might be fun...
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Greatclub

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #36 on: 11 September 2020, 13:04:00 »
There's certainly something to be said for being able to hit with a larger damage cluster than any other 20-tonner in the entire setting. I think the FLE-4 wasn't toppled from that pedestal until the Wasp-C came out just recently.

As you say, it's great for hunting Bugs and other bottom-tier lights.

When did the FLE-4 come out? I imagine AoW tankers would have been utterly terrified of a machine that fast carrying a gun that could punch clean through their armor.
Dasher aletha had an er large too.

Weirdo

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #37 on: 11 September 2020, 13:36:36 »
I sit corrected. :)
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Greatclub

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #38 on: 26 September 2020, 18:29:14 »
That's not an indictment of the Firefly, it's an indictment of the commander that assigned it to one of the worst possible jobs they possibly could have for that mech.

The unit was built out of salvage. She had no supply lines beyond barter.

Assuming that the mechs in the unit stay the same, I'm not sure what you could do - maybe swap the firefly for the griffin, dervish or cobra, but that puts a light in a heavy lance, and wastes the firefly pilot's ability to boost initiative, as that only applies when part of an all-light lance.

Given the resources and abilities you have, I really think the best solution is to replace the firefly with the first position-appropriate light you shoot an enemy out of.

Weirdo

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #39 on: 26 September 2020, 19:11:42 »
Here's a question: How do the older Fireflies stack up against other light mechs of their era, looking solely at raw short-range firepower? Specifically, I'm talking about the FFL-3A during the Star League, and the -4A during the Succession Wars. I'll definitely concede that the Firefly has a MUCH harder time of things once REVIVAL kicks off, aside from the Clan model.
« Last Edit: 26 September 2020, 19:18:30 by Weirdo »
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Greatclub

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #40 on: 26 September 2020, 20:05:47 »
Here's a question: How do the older Fireflies stack up against other light mechs of their era, looking solely at raw short-range firepower? Specifically, I'm talking about the FFL-3A during the Star League, and the -4A during the Succession Wars. I'll definitely concede that the Firefly has a MUCH harder time of things once REVIVAL kicks off, aside from the Clan model.

It isn't a wolfhound, but a just a tier below that, and above... pretty much everything 40 tons or below (save the mongoose) in tro 3039

Spector, talon, nighthawk, all of which use way more advanced tech in the 'league.
« Last Edit: 26 September 2020, 20:24:36 by Greatclub »

Weirdo

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #41 on: 26 September 2020, 22:30:05 »
I'm talking about raw number of damage points up close, nothing else. How many Succession Wars or Star League light mechs can put out 27 damage, plus possibly melee? None of the mechs just listed do.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Sartris

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #42 on: 26 September 2020, 22:43:16 »
i've got uh

Commando 2D (25dmg + 5 kick)
Hermes 1Sb (25dmg + 6 kick)
Javelin 10N (24dmg + 6 kick)
Firebee 2E (24dmg + 7 kick)
Jenner D (28dmg + 7 kick)

Weirdo

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #43 on: 27 September 2020, 09:06:04 »
Thank you for indulging my curiosity.

How do those mechs compare to the Firefly in terms of armor/structure?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Greatclub

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #44 on: 28 September 2020, 00:55:03 »
less than a firefly.

I'd actually forgotten the original firefly had that mess of small lasers.

We all get that the Firefly genuinely was one of the best lights - pretty much a pocket medium, actually - published 1989 or before. But with the possible exception of the clan model, it hasn't aged well, and the last couple IS variants in particular are pretty fugly (in a bad way) for their era.

« Last Edit: 28 September 2020, 01:18:39 by Greatclub »

Weirdo

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #45 on: 28 September 2020, 10:11:39 »
Agreed. I genuinely wish that they'd gone the same route as many Fleas and boosted the speed in at least one model, especially one that retains the small lasers. Such a machine would be able to continue its role as a bully against other light mechs and vees, and also become a solid threat against many suits.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Colt Ward

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #46 on: 28 September 2020, 10:35:10 »
7/11 with 5 ERSLs?
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Minemech

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #47 on: 28 September 2020, 11:26:01 »
Thank you for indulging my curiosity.

How do those mechs compare to the Firefly in terms of armor/structure?
The Commando is notoriously vulnerable
 The Hermes did not really get a strong armor variant until the 31st century, as its purpose was to be a swift scout
 The Javelin was a pretty typical light mech armorwise
  As a late addition to the game, the Firebee has comparable armor
 The Jenner D is a typical light for the era

Minemech

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #48 on: 28 September 2020, 12:15:04 »
 To add some context, if you are a light, and have ammunition, then you need enough armor over that ammunition to take a single Large Laser hit.

massey

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #49 on: 28 September 2020, 16:13:40 »
To add some context, if you are a light, and have ammunition, then you need enough armor over that ammunition to take a single Large Laser hit.

I disagree.  While light mechs can suffer ammunition explosions just like anyone else, I think they're actually less vulnerable to it.  Once somebody is internal on a light, the very next hit is likely to blow the section off.  You don't get too many chances to hit a light mech's ammo before the mech is dead anyway.  And with cheap jump jets and smaller engines, they're more likely to have good crit packing as well (base 10 heat sinks may be outside of the engine).

Minemech

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #50 on: 28 September 2020, 16:15:55 »
I disagree.  While light mechs can suffer ammunition explosions just like anyone else, I think they're actually less vulnerable to it.  Once somebody is internal on a light, the very next hit is likely to blow the section off.  You don't get too many chances to hit a light mech's ammo before the mech is dead anyway.  And with cheap jump jets and smaller engines, they're more likely to have good crit packing as well (base 10 heat sinks may be outside of the engine).
I like to call the Commando the Firecracker, and not for a positive reason.

Fat Guy

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #51 on: 29 September 2020, 09:20:30 »
The Commando and SRM Carrier are actually quite similar.

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Kovax

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #52 on: 29 September 2020, 10:53:22 »
The issue that the Firefly has when facing other Lights is that the slightly slower movement speed doesn't allow for that extra turn during movement without losing a point of your to-hit modifier.  A 6/9/x can walk 5 and turn 1 or run 7 and turn 2 facings to get an angled shot, but the FFL either walks straight ahead, runs and makes only a single turn, or loses a point on its modifier.  The 4 jump distance won't give you the +3 to match your own penalty for jumping, while a 5 or 6 jumper would get the +3 movement modifier.  In a fight between heavier units with low modifiers, +1 taking you from 8 to be hit up to 9 is significant but not monumental, but with Lights getting high modifiers, a +1 taking you from 11 to be hit up to 12 is a 3:1 advantage.  The FFL ends up on the losing side in that situation, as a part of its intended role in a light lance.  That's a "failed design", in my opinion, although it's still got enough firepower and armor to be "useful" in some roles.

Ideally, it needs one more point of speed, or at the very least, one more jump jet, to make it competitive in a scout or scout-hunter role.  Not much use for a scout that can't run away from trouble, or a scout-hunter that can't catch its intended prey.  That leaves it either in the role of an under-weight Medium, or searching for unescorted Panthers that it can actually catch and fight.  Just about anything else can either run away from it, or it needs to run away from.

Sartris

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Re: Of Fireflys and Fleas
« Reply #53 on: 29 September 2020, 11:02:03 »
I like to call the Commando the Firecracker, and not for a positive reason.

I had a nearly two decade long streak of commandos i fielded blew up from ammo explosions. it was finally broken when one fell into water after a failed PSR and had the CT flood  ;D

 

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