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Author Topic: Piloting and Gunnery skill  (Read 36736 times)

BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #90 on: 25 June 2021, 14:36:14 »
My players never have G/P worse than 3/4, just to keep the game fun and moving.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #91 on: 30 June 2021, 09:57:25 »
You know for all this back and forth on the skills . . . I want to say Ray recently addressed this- the G/P skills listed were what was needed for the scenarios to be balanced and interesting.

Since most of my campaigns have involved MegaMek it allows some interesting options without rushing to power game the system, which I will have to throw up in the fan section but a couple of notes.

The new SPAs open up a lot more options for a player group, be it mercs, House or Clan, to improve without being ridiculous in the universe's setting.  The SPAs slotted in nicely with what MM provided from the RPG, which allows similarities to what MC2 offered.  Instead of gaining a complete gunnery improvement (which is where most people put such things) points can instead be spent on improving a specific skill-  FREX instead of going from 3 gun to 2 gun, the mechwarrior instead gains a cluster roll bonus (forget the name) when rolling on a cluster chart.  Which helps that mechwarrior do damage since he pilots a Bandersnatch- so +dmg for the LB-10X on cluster and the LRM5s.  The merc unit loses the Bandersnatch?  Well I would want to be looking for something with LBX, LRMs or SRMs to put that pilot in, otherwise that skill is wasted.

MechCommander 2 had some interesting options for pilot improvements that I do not think had any table top carry overs but the RPG and now SPA get close to covering it, or can be hand managed for a campaign.  FREX it had a 'medium mech' specialization which meant the pilot got a bit more performance when piloting a medium mech which is something that would apply IMO to the long service or veteran/elite pilot (not gunnery, just pilot) mechwarriors.  So while Aletha Kabrinsky and Dan Allard preferred and continued to pilot light mechs as senior commanders, they should also have been light mech specialists.

As has been discussed previously for a company/trinary/battalion/cluster/regiment/galaxy, being 'veteran' or 'elite' is not just their individual skills but the synergy of the whole unit.  IMO I would expect a veteran formation to have one unit special ability- like one of the Arcturan Guards being specialists in arctic warfare- and a elite unit to have two simple or one more complicated special ability.  FREX one of the regiments of the DBG could have a special ability where the tech staff is exceptional thus cutting repair times & maintenance costs and say offboard-map movement . . . but I would also expect that same regiment to have pilots that have a variety of Terrain Master, Pathfinder, and whatever it is called where they can run through occupied hexes if they make the roll.  Heck, sometimes the command staff itself can make regulars perform as veterans . . . and if in place long enough, that regular unit would become veterans due to meeting standards.

Further, veteran & elite units are more likely to be better supported by supply/quartermasters/merchant caste than more regular units though you do have a few elite units that get snubbed by their supports.  Such units are also more likely to have better/more tech staff and support equipment.  FREX, I have 4 new MFB for a theater and 10 regiments- 2 elite, 3 veteran, 4 regular, and 1 green being stood up/rebuilt.  Both elite regiments are likely to end up with one of the new MFB . . . the other two might be assigned to veteran units or one might go to a veteran unit and the last one might go to a regular unit that is a subordinate garrison unit guarding the important post.  A elite or veteran unit is more likely to have dropships permanently assigned to them or perhaps even jumpships like the DBG regiments.

Raw pilot skill might be the biggest component of what makes a formation elite/veteran/regular/green, but there are other quantifiable and even intangible components that will contribute to that status.
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Charistoph

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #92 on: 30 June 2021, 13:13:41 »
I can't remember if anyone pointed this out, but the Mech Pilot cards come with some interesting cases.

For example Marauder pilot Missy Ravenwood is such a bad pilot that she often slips and falls just walking her Mech from the gun range to the mech bay.

Her Piloting Skill is 4.  Regualr pilots are 5, green pilots are 6.  ???
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #93 on: 02 July 2021, 12:39:38 »
Of course, if you really want to go off the charts, there are specs from the Kell Hounds supplement (ca. 1988). Morgan Kell (see page 16) apparently had piloting 0 and gunnery -1 (yes, negative). He's the only one who "went negative" (in contravention of current rules) but several other warriors have impressive specs: Patrick Kell (piloting 1, gunnery 0), Salome Ward (piloting 1, gunnery 0), and Clarence Wilson (piloting 0, gunnery 0) are the specific examples.

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #94 on: 03 July 2021, 11:25:05 »
He's the only one who "went negative" (in contravention of current rules) but several other warriors have impressive specs: Patrick Kell (piloting 1, gunnery 0), Salome Ward (piloting 1, gunnery 0), and Clarence Wilson (piloting 0, gunnery 0) are the specific examples.

Traditional Battletech has limits of 0/0.

Mechwarrior 1st Edition which is what those are based off of could go as low as -2 with maxed Attributes & maxed Skills.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #95 on: 03 July 2021, 11:58:44 »
The Battletech Manual (ca. 1987) doesn't appear to give a cap on skill improvement (see pg. 10 for relevant rules). So, it appears that the rules of that era were consistent in allowing better-than-zero skills.

That edition of the rules still had the "four kills" advancement system.

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #96 on: 08 July 2021, 16:57:47 »
That edition of the rules still had the "four kills" advancement system.

I had such a Love/Hate with that system.   

How does one denote a "kill"?

What do Vehicles/Infantry/Fighters count as?

I've seen many options & they seems to often favor bigger/slower mechs that had more guns or luck of timing on the "kill"

I feel like the best option is, not "kills" but instead "damage inflicted / Unit Tonnage".

So my Stinger gets a "kill" for every 20 points of damage, (or multiple of 20 points if you want something like Tonnage x2). 

Even that I feel isn't perfect since it favors slower mechs v/s speedy things w/ few guns (IE.. Hussar)
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #97 on: 08 July 2021, 17:02:06 »
Kills are easy.  Did damage you inflicted disable, destroy, or cripple the unit, or otherwise cause it to disable, destroy, or cripple itself?  Then you got the kill.  If you didn't do that, you didn't get the kill.

If two units both contribute, the one that landed the finishing blow gets it.  If one unit critted the hip and another critted the gyro and the unit was destroyed in the fall, the gyro is more of a penalty and counts as the kill.  If two units cause identical damage (two different same-severity actuator crits) and the unit is destroyed by a subsequent PSR, they split it.

It's only difficult if you make it difficult.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #98 on: 08 July 2021, 17:50:34 »
It's only difficult if you make it difficult.

Tell that to the PC's competing for "kill credit" to improve their PCs & 1 guy gets all the lucky hits in.

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #99 on: 08 July 2021, 17:55:46 »
That's a recipe for a table flip if I ever heard one...

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #100 on: 08 July 2021, 19:14:46 »
People complaining about luck in a dice game, especially a cooperative one, especially when the luck is one of their teammates doing well, need to be sat down and reminded what the goal of a game is.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #101 on: 08 July 2021, 22:54:35 »
While I've never actually used if in a campaign, on paper I really like the quick and dirty XP system provided in Total War.

People complaining about luck in a dice game, especially a cooperative one, especially when the luck is one of their teammates doing well, need to be sat down and reminded what the goal of a game is.

They may also need to be reminded as to what a teammate is, if they're actively trying to steal kills from buddies.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #102 on: 08 July 2021, 23:01:45 »
They may also need to be reminded as to what a teammate is, if they're actively trying to steal kills from buddies.

To be clear, I wasn't talking about stealing, just the fate of BT dice roles where one guy rips open the heavily armored Atlas leg & doesn't roll any crits while another guy with a single medium laser crits on 12 & blows the leg off.   Stuff like that. 
Given all damage is at the same time in universe & its just game rules that determines what order the shots land in, its pretty random who gets credit.
It could be the guy firing last who gets the crit, or just as easily the 1st man in from a "massed fire" turn that stop early on the first person to hit the ammo or engine, etc etc, when another 40 points of fire was still incoming.

Point is those rules were not well defined & lead to a lot of random awards of XP.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #103 on: 08 July 2021, 23:18:40 »
My point was largely that they are well-defined.  The fact that they can be unsatisfactory is a different issue (and I do agree that at times it can be an issue).
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #104 on: 09 July 2021, 06:08:23 »
I think The central point was: Do the Awesome pilot upgrade after killing 4 APCs, when the Wasp pilot doesn't for killing 3 Atlases?

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #105 on: 09 July 2021, 10:30:34 »
That is correct. 4 kills is 4 kills, it's very clear. Now if a Wasp pilot does manage to solo-kill 3 Atlases, the GM can always use their prerogative to give them some other bonus such as SPAs, or give them a large chunk of the WarChest Points from salvaging 300 tons of mech, more than enough to upgrade their mech or trade up to a larger one.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #106 on: 09 July 2021, 10:51:20 »
I have also heard of the 'MVP' point . . . the PC team votes for the most valuable pilot/crew on their side and gives them a point.

I actually prefer the XP system I think brought up in one of the merc books.  A pilot gets experience for being involved in battles . . . otherwise how would my stealth Spectre pilot improve his skills in a company of heavy & assaults- even if he is the one achieving the mission objectives?
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #107 on: 09 July 2021, 10:55:22 »
That's the one I mentioned as being in TW. Everyone who makes it through the battle gets 1 XP. Your opponent chooses one of your units as the MVP, and that one gets an extra point(you do the same for their guys). I forget how many XP it costs to upgrade one skill by one point. Kills are completely irrelevant.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #108 on: 09 July 2021, 16:23:33 »
I'm a big fan of kill exp, but admittedly I tend to prefer massaging the numbers a bit to make something that feels right to me.

As should everyone, really.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #109 on: 09 July 2021, 16:46:36 »
Yeah, I think most folks take that as a foundation . . . I know I modified it, especially since I was including SPA & Edge as things pilots could gain.  I also know one of the MM servers did a scaling set up . . . something like 4 points for green to regular, 16 points from regular to veteran, and 64 points veteran to elite.  You also had a greater chance to pick up RP style benefit like 'Ironman,' 'Pathfinder,' or 'NA:  Gunnery' than you did for a skill advance.  They also did not allow any skill differences greater than to . . . so a 3/5 would be a vet gunner but reg pilot, while something that was more movement/melee oriented might be 4/2 . . . points were dedicated to piloting rather than gunnery.

To avoid power creep for a campaign, I started setting up a requirement for regular pilots to spend points on SPA (or their equivalent) or Edge.  I know some campaigns I have heard discussed also allowed those points to be 'spent' on customization, all to keep surviving mechwarriors from inevitability getting to 0/1 while still rewarding play.

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drjones

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #110 on: 16 July 2021, 12:31:11 »
I think that the current XP system fixes a lot of the issues from the four-kill system. I haven't really gotten to play with the current system -- no campaigns yet -- but am concerned that the MVP rule could be gamed: let's see, what's the least threatening unit my opponent fielded? Infantry platoon MVP!

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #111 on: 16 July 2021, 12:37:04 »
I think that the current XP system fixes a lot of the issues from the four-kill system. I haven't really gotten to play with the current system -- no campaigns yet -- but am concerned that the MVP rule could be gamed: let's see, what's the least threatening unit my opponent fielded? Infantry platoon MVP!

Anything can be gamed, but if that happens and the infantry did not do something outstanding it would/should be pretty obvious to the GM.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #112 on: 16 July 2021, 15:01:59 »
All systems are fallible, and thus must rely on players that adhere to the principle of Don't Be A Jerk.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #113 on: 17 July 2021, 12:31:29 »
I'd guess the MVP rule was intended for a non-GM'd game. Otherwise, having the GM choose the MVPs for both sides would seem a better fit.

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #114 on: 17 July 2021, 12:36:47 »
I’ve done 1xp for completing the mission intact, .5 for getting mission killed but living, and an additional bonus .5 for participating in completing at least one non-combat objective. I might also throw in a bonus .5 for what I deemed to be a worthy solo kill

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #115 on: 17 July 2021, 13:13:25 »
I tend to do 1 EXP for deploying to a mission, 2 EXP per 'Mech kill (2 EXP per Aero kill if the pilot is also in an Aero), 1 EXP per other kill (non-conventional infantry), and then adjust the EXP required for advancements accordingly, usually pretty close to the Against the Bot numbers.

For Gunnery:

Untrained to 8, 8 to 7, 7 to 6, 6 to 5 = 5 EXP
5 to 4 = 10 EXP
4 to 3 = 20 EXP
3 to 2 = 40 EXP
2 to 1 = 60 EXP
1 to 0 = 100 EXP

For Piloting:

Untrained to 8, 8 to 7, 7 to 6 = 5 EXP
6 to 5 = 10 EXP
5 to 4 = 20 EXP
4 to 3 = 40 EXP
3 to 2 = 60 EXP
2 to 1 = 80 EXP
1 to 0 = 100 EXP

I figure that for an "average" pilot on combat duty consistently across an entire career, it's reasonable to assume 1-2 raids or defenses a year with around a half a dozen individual sorties in each, and one 'Mech kill per raid or defense.  This results in an average of 5-10ish missions and 2 'Mech kills a year, or ~15 experience a year.  A MechWarrior that is assigned to a front line unit out of the academy can reasonably be a Green (5/6) pilot.  Under those circumstances, assuming they aren't killed, after two years they will be comfortably Regular (4/5).  After five years of frontline combat they will be comfortably Veteran (3/4).  After 10 years of near-constant on an operational timeline combat you will have an Elite (2/3) pilot on your hands.  And after 20 years of admirable service you have a distinguished ace (1/2) who gets to retire somewhere nice.

It also pretty easily corrects for "mistakes" in skill, where that 5/6 you brought along pops off to the tune of a half dozen kills in their first couple sorties and whoa I guess they were actually a 4/5 the whole time, weird.

Anything faster than this feels like (to be clear: this is an opinion) it's way too fast, and there's no way every front line command that ever existed wasn't Elite for their entire existence.
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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #116 on: 17 July 2021, 13:22:22 »
Depends on the campaign. I usually kept them under fifteen tracks and then shelved forever so I wanted the players to feel some kind of tangible growth for pilots they kept putting into action and brining back alive. Having SPAs and P/G skills purchased with the same XP pool made for some interesting choices

If I were doing an open-ended campaign expected to last years, I would probably throttle it by having all improvement take place in R&R downtime between contracts or operations

 

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Re: Piloting and Gunnery skill
« Reply #117 on: 19 July 2021, 11:36:11 »
I also liked the idea that you changed between weights or perhaps roles that your skills get temporarily knocked back until you had familiarized yourself with the changes.
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