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Author Topic: Poor Performance Quirk question.  (Read 1527 times)

Hammerhead

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Poor Performance Quirk question.
« on: 02 December 2021, 18:49:06 »
Hey, everybody.  A question about this quirk came up recently in a game. It is stated that the unit with the quirk must move at Walk/Cruise speed for 1 turn before accelerating to Run/Flank speed the following turn.

The question is; does the unit then get to maintain Flank speed indefinitely if possible, or is it only for 1 turn after the turn spent walking?

For example, over 4 turns: Walk-Run-Run-Run OR Walk-Run-Walk-Run?

Thanks, all.

Edit: grammar.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2021, 19:09:55 by Hammerhead »

Wolf72

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #1 on: 02 December 2021, 19:37:39 »
I'm sure you'll get a better answer soon,

but It sounds like it's just from anytime you need to start up.  It takes a second (well 10, right?)

so once you get up to speed you're fine.  You drop back down to a standstill, then you can't speed up to full movement unless you get a turn of walk/cruise in first.
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KS #1357

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #2 on: 02 December 2021, 20:33:29 »
I'm sure you'll get a better answer soon,

but It sounds like it's just from anytime you need to start up.  It takes a second (well 10, right?)

so once you get up to speed you're fine.  You drop back down to a standstill, then you can't speed up to full movement unless you get a turn of walk/cruise in first.

I agree with this, which is what your first assumption is.
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Hammerhead

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #3 on: 02 December 2021, 21:14:52 »
I'm sure you'll get a better answer soon,

but It sounds like it's just from anytime you need to start up.  It takes a second (well 10, right?)

so once you get up to speed you're fine.  You drop back down to a standstill, then you can't speed up to full movement unless you get a turn of walk/cruise in first.

This was my initial thought as well.  I also wonder if it requires you to drop back to a standstill before you need to move at Walk/Cruise for another turn, or if you only need to drop into the Walk/Cruise range.  For example; if my move is 4/6 and I spend a turn at 4, then 2 turns at 6, then a turn at 3, am I limited to 4 the following turn because I slipped out of Run/Flank speed?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #4 on: 03 December 2021, 02:09:09 »
If the quirk doesn't say that you have any such limitations (which it doesn't), assume that it is not intended that you have them.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #5 on: 03 December 2021, 10:42:15 »
I agree with the above posters.

Never looked at it, but surprised there is not similar for weapons.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #6 on: 04 December 2021, 00:42:25 »
Poor Performance means the mech has sluggish acceleration.  An equivalent quirk for weapons would be that you either could only fire a couple of your weapons in one round, then all your weapons the next.  Or that you had to fire ultra or rotary autocannons in single shot before double tapping.  Both options would be terrible and would probably result in a mech getting scrapped in the prototype stage.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #7 on: 04 December 2021, 01:39:50 »
Yeah, I was mostly looking at UAC/RAC problems, fluff for Rapid Fire AC, or maybe a Streak that losses a missile.
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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #8 on: 04 December 2021, 01:55:44 »
I believe that the approved method of execution for someone who approves of a weapon system with a flaw like that is to drown them in a toilet.
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idea weenie

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #9 on: 04 December 2021, 09:08:23 »
I believe that the approved method of execution for someone who approves of a weapon system with a flaw like that is to drown them in a toilet.

Or it is a quirk belonging to an older weapon that has seen a couple centuries of use/abuse, and this is as good as the weapon gets.  A 3025-era weapon, not a 3050-era weapon.  If the choice is between an LRM-20 that fires every other turn, or 10 tons of cargo space, then the bad LRM-20 might be the only option.  It does allow for a maneuvering match where a Mech pops out, does an alpha strike, then ducks back in cover.  While in cover it cools off and its LRM rack slowly reloads.  Next turn it is cooled off and loaded.

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #10 on: 05 December 2021, 02:47:17 »
Quirks are assigned to mechs.  Not individual weapons: if the Shadow Hawk has something unusual about its autocannon, it applies to every autocannon on every Shadow Hawk, not one specific autocannon on one specific Shadow Hawk.
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assaultdoor

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #11 on: 05 December 2021, 12:32:17 »
Quirks are assigned to mechs.  Not individual weapons: if the Shadow Hawk has something unusual about its autocannon, it applies to every autocannon on every Shadow Hawk, not one specific autocannon on one specific Shadow Hawk.
I don't buy this. This doesn't fit with the way individual quirks are worded (e.g. Improved Cooling Jacket), it doesn't explain why some versions in XTROs have different quirks, and it directly contradicts the "Base Designs vs. Variants" section on page 89 of the BattleMech Manual.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #12 on: 05 December 2021, 17:40:26 »
Quirks like Improved Cooling Jacket apply to a specific weapon on a mech, but they're not unique to a single specific weapon.  A mech with Improved Cooling Jacket (ER PPC) has that quirk for whatever ER PPC is installed on it.  If you take the factory-installed ER PPC off and replace it with another ER PPC of the same model, it still has that quirk.  And if you put that first ER PPC onto a completely different mech, it will not suddenly gain that Quirk.
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RifleMech

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #13 on: 05 December 2021, 22:52:54 »
This was my initial thought as well.  I also wonder if it requires you to drop back to a standstill before you need to move at Walk/Cruise for another turn, or if you only need to drop into the Walk/Cruise range.  For example; if my move is 4/6 and I spend a turn at 4, then 2 turns at 6, then a turn at 3, am I limited to 4 the following turn because I slipped out of Run/Flank speed?



I always interpreted it as a speed issue. If you slow down it takes time to speed back up again. So if you drop down to 3 you'll have to spend a turn speeding back up to 4 before you can move at 5 or 6. I'm also presuming that the same applies to Sprinting and Overdrive. 1 turn at walk/cruise, then 1 turn at run/flank, before sprinting/overdrive.



I agree with the above posters.

Never looked at it, but surprised there is not similar for weapons.
Yeah, I was mostly looking at UAC/RAC problems, fluff for Rapid Fire AC, or maybe a Streak that losses a missile.


From what I've read, I would think that would depend on whether or not the weapon with multiple barrels has to spend time getting the barrels up to speed before it can fire. Since the weapon still fires in the 10 second turn I'd give it a poor targeting quirk instead of poor performance.  I say that because the target could have moved while the barrels are getting up to speed while other guns are already putting rounds on the target.



Quirks like Improved Cooling Jacket apply to a specific weapon on a mech, but they're not unique to a single specific weapon.  A mech with Improved Cooling Jacket (ER PPC) has that quirk for whatever ER PPC is installed on it.  If you take the factory-installed ER PPC off and replace it with another ER PPC of the same model, it still has that quirk.  And if you put that first ER PPC onto a completely different mech, it will not suddenly gain that Quirk.


That's not how I've seen that rule interpreted. Some quirks are do to the mech others because of a specific weapon, like the Improved Cooling Jacket. If that weapon is replaced with a different model then it looses that quirk because that quirk was attached to the weapon and lost when it was replaced. Otherwise, fluff saying X Brand PPC generates less heat is meaningless because every PPC generates less heat. So why have that quirk?  To make things even more complicated, if you could strip the Improved Cooling Jacket from X Brand PPC and install it on W Brand PPC, why couldn't you install it on some other weapon type?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #14 on: 06 December 2021, 01:05:58 »
Notice the part where I said "of the same model?"  That's an important clause.
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RifleMech

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #15 on: 06 December 2021, 16:28:03 »
Notice the part where I said "of the same model?"  That's an important clause.

You also said that quirks weren't unique to a specific weapon which is what I'm replying to. Some quirks are attached to a specific weapon. It's what makes that weapon stand out from all the rest. So any attached quirk would go with the weapon and all units using that particular weapon would benefit, or not, from that quirk.

It's why I wish there were cost and availability modifiers for quirks. Higher quality weapons - those with positive quirks -  should have more expensive and harder to get than those without any quirks. Inferior weapons - those with negative quirks - should be less expensive and possibly easier to source.

Wolf72

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #16 on: 06 December 2021, 16:57:26 »
I've got a whole line up of 10 & 40 ER vehicles that I designed.  Mostly standard and low tech (rifles, and similar items) for large but slightly lower tech availability forces.

The poor performance quirk seems perfect for a 10 rated engine powering my 25 ton crusher vtol (at 5/8) or the 50+ ton (forget actual atm) running at 4/6.

I think to the of the engine as efficient, cheap and reliable, so I need to check up on quirks that might help.

Ubiquitous looks good considering I applied this engine (mostly ICE, but a few fusion and FCE too) to almost every veh type I could manage (and an industrial ultra light mech or two).  Was hoping for something the opposite of Gas Hog.  The current formula for ICE engines gives it 1,000km range (666 for fuel cell), extra fuel tanks it is!
« Last Edit: 06 December 2021, 17:05:17 by Wolf72 »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #17 on: 06 December 2021, 19:52:32 »
You also said that quirks weren't unique to a specific weapon which is what I'm replying to. Some quirks are attached to a specific weapon. It's what makes that weapon stand out from all the rest. So any attached quirk would go with the weapon and all units using that particular weapon would benefit, or not, from that quirk.

But it's every example of that weapon, not randomly so that ER PPC with serial number 12345 has the quirk but serial number 12346 does not.
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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #18 on: 06 December 2021, 22:29:37 »
But it's every example of that weapon, not randomly so that ER PPC with serial number 12345 has the quirk but serial number 12346 does not.

No it isn't. It's all examples of a specific brand. Not all examples of that type of weapon. Otherwise all ER PPCs would have Improved Cooling Jackets. Instead Brand X has an improved cooling jacket while Brand Y is more accurate but Brand C doesn't have a cooling jacket at all. It's name brand vs generic vs discount brand.

If you replace a Panther's Lord's Light PPC with a Warhammer's Donal PPC, the Donal doesn't suddenly have the features of the Lord's Light because it's mounted on a Panther. It's still a Donal PPC and will remain so regardless of what unit it's mounted on. Just like if a Cyclops loses it's Tacticon B-2000 Battle Computer it isn't going to keep the Battle Computer quirk as the quirk is tied to that specific computer. It can get a new battle computer. They're a part of the cockpit systems but unless it's a Tacticon B-2000, it's not going to be won't be as good. Without the Tacticon B-2000, the Cyclops will lose the Battle Computer quirk and be just another assault mech.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #19 on: 06 December 2021, 22:44:57 »
I have been saying that exact thing this entire time.  I don't know what point you're arguing with, but it's not anything that I'm actually saying.
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Re: Poor Performance Quirk question.
« Reply #20 on: 07 December 2021, 12:02:48 »
I have been saying that exact thing this entire time.  I don't know what point you're arguing with, but it's not anything that I'm actually saying.

That's not how it's coming across.

Quirks like Improved Cooling Jacket apply to a specific weapon on a mech, but they're not unique to a single specific weapon.  A mech with Improved Cooling Jacket (ER PPC) has that quirk for whatever ER PPC is installed on it. If you take the factory-installed ER PPC off and replace it with another ER PPC of the same model, it still has that quirk.  And if you put that first ER PPC onto a completely different mech, it will not suddenly gain that Quirk.


Here you say that quirks like Improved Cooling Jacket are attached to the Mech and stays with the Mech, not the weapon. That's exactly opposite of what I said.


But it's every example of that weapon, not randomly so that ER PPC with serial number 12345 has the quirk but serial number 12346 does not.

Here you're saying it's every example of that weapon. I said it only applies to some examples.  When it comes to quirks not every example is equal. Some quirks apply to the unit as a whole. Some quirks apply to the weapon/equipment. Other quirks can apply to both. When it comes to quirks like the Improved Cooling Jacket, the quirk is attached to the weapon.

If you replace a weapon with the improved cooling jacket quirk, the cooling jacket doesn't stay with the mech. It stays with the weapon because it isn't an add on piece like a PPC Capacitor. It's a built in part of that particular weapon. It's what separates out name brands from generic from discount. If quirks like Improved Cooling Jacket stayed with the Mech, any weapon you put in it's place could use it.





 

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