Proper use for light tanks (scorpion, etc)?

[Oniralas]

Preface: I am a tread head. No sense denying my nature. First game in 20 years and I try to cram as many tanks on the field as I can LOL

So, my question is: What is the proper use case (if any...) for light tanks - specifically the scorpion? I printed up about 20 hulls and various turrets (AC, SRM mostly) and would love to find a spot for them in a mechanized force but wasn't sure the right way to actually use them. Last game I had them acting as bodyguards for some LRM carriers and it kinda worked, but I feel like they were better utilized as something more mobile (their lack of firepower wasn't enough to deter a kamikaze attack to take out the LRM group).

Thanks!

[AlphaMirage]

Light tanks in battletech should likely be operating alongside mechanized infantry using the same motive type. There they can provide some fire support and long reaching weapons while having close protection particularly on the defense preferably with some cover. They can withstand a reasonable amount of incoming fire but are not built for long duration fights on the Battlemech/anized battlefield.

[Empyrus]

GM provides them as cannon fodder.

Militia tanks. Buy a number of them, quantity may appear scary enough to scare would-be attackers away.

Oppressing peasants and their cows.

Uhh... nothing else really pops into my mind. It is just that if we're talking about the bottom tier things, like Scorpions and Vedettes, i find them somewhat questionable all in all.
I would probably use them as filler in my forces, bring them up to BV limit or so. Might load them with flak or flechettes to provide cheap anti-air or anti-infantry function, though i don't recommend this unless you know your opponent will have air power or infantry.
(Bringing too many vehicles (or any unit) bogs down a game and sheer volume of fire isn't particularly fun.)

There are articles for the Scorpion and Vedette if you want more in-depth analysis for them:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/vehicle-of-the-week-vedette/
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/votw-scorpion/

[Oniralas]

Light tanks in battletech should likely be operating alongside mechanized infantry using the same motive type. There they can provide some fire support and long reaching weapons while having close protection particularly on the defense preferably with some cover. They can withstand a reasonable amount of incoming fire but are not built for long duration fights on the Battlemech/anized battlefield.

Yeah I kinda figured they needed to roll with something around the same speed, take advantage of the distance and swarming style vs their ability to guard something with any sort of longevity.

I'm going to try more mechanized infantry in a future game - combined arms is the greatest!

[Sabelkatten]

IMHO, swarm. Especially the classic AC/5 Scorpion. Just take a company and cruise towards the enemy flinging 60 potential damage every turn.

The way CBT armor/weapons work a "light tank" is more about its performance than its weight. A Scorpion is really just an underweight medium MBT.

As for bodyguarding that's just a question of how much the enemy is willing to risk. The only way to actually bodyguard a slow unit in CBT is to fill up all the hexes the enemy can use to close with it. Scorpions are cheap enough that might actually be viable!

[Weirdo]

Fun fact: Scorpions mount just enough armor to make killing them require real effort, more so than they can actually dish out. If you field a lance with three Scorpions and some kind of rolling brick of armor with real firepower, odds are the Scorpions will get ignored completely until the big tank is dead, giving them plenty of time to rack up oodles of 5-point hits.

Scorpions are also a good candidate for trying out the optional advanced rules for autocannons found in TacOps. A lance of tanks firing at full unsafe RoF can put a LOT of shells downrange, and if a tank gets unlucky and jams or blows a cannon, it's not a huge loss for your overall force.

[Empyrus]

Scorpions are also a good candidate for trying out the optional advanced rules for autocannons found in TacOps. A lance of tanks firing at full unsafe RoF can put a LOT of shells downrange, and if a tank gets unlucky and jams or blows a cannon, it's not a huge loss for your overall force.

1) Oh, extremely interesting idea
2) One must be careful about using this. May be a great way to piss off players. Though i grant that a lance should be OK. A company of Scorpions of doing this...

[Sartris]

using those rules usually ends one of two ways

1) shit jams or explodes on the first roll and is useless
2) "never do that again"

for peak hilarity use alternate munitions. AP ammo isn't great but potentially TWENTY FOUR AP rounds per turn gets some attention

[Oniralas]

Thanks for the info folks! What about the SRM variant? Push a few of those up with the heavy/mediums and either they get ignored until close or they absorb fire meant for the mechs? I mean they'll likely go kaboom but target saturation is always a plus in my book

[Weirdo]

A pair of SRMpions and a pair of big fire support or artillery tanks makes for a good self-escorting support formation.

[Sartris]

no one expects LRM scorpions and semi-guided ammo

[Weirdo]

Most Scorpions are a pretty good deal, in that whole they bring less firepower to the table than almost anything else, they also come in so cheap that the firepower they do bring is well worth it and it's very easy to bring the 3-4 tanks it takes to add up to very respectable firepower.

I've never tried the laser Scorpion, though.

[Natasha Kerensky]

My 2 cents on use of combat vehicle roles in general, which I think also applies to smaller tracked tanks:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/ground-combat/what-vehicles-do-you-take/msg1514702/#msg1514702

Under this doctrine, I don’t see much use for the standard Scorpion except for militia or similar low-end unit flavor.  But the LRM variant could be useful in numbers, especially firing indirectly from behind a hill with spotters nearby.  And the SRM variant could be a dangerous in numbers in an ambush as a distributed SRM Carrier.

[Fallen_Raven]

I find a good use of Scorpions to be thickening the line of battle. They don't do much on their own, but they fill in gaps and make it more difficult to get easy access to side shots. Its also easier to spread your line out and control more of the map when you can toss a Scorpion out at the end. Its not the most glamorous job, but denying ground is a basic tactical role that is much easier to achieve with a 300ish BV light tank that it is with anything heavier. The guns are just there to make facing difficult for the enemy.

[Daryk]

If you're willing to use custom designs, there are a number of ways to get a PPC on a Scorpion (one is in my sig block)... 

[Empyrus]

If you go customs, yank the AC and fill the Scorp with rocket launchers 

[Daryk]

You can only get so many on a 25 ton frame... 

[Empyrus]

You can only get so many on a 25 ton frame... 

Use bigger RLs. Anyway, i figure the Scorpion chassis would make good ambush vehicle. I mean, i can't really think of any better use for it.
Besides, it is Quickscell product, it probably falls apart before a battle.

[Sartris]

boobytrap

[House Davie Merc]

The Scorpion isn't just small- it's also not very fast .

Overall 4/6 for a 25 tonner isn't exactly speedy .

Stay in groups , stay at range , stay close to something else that's a
bigger target, or some combination of these .

IMHO if available the LRM variant is vastly better then the original
because you can combine it with infantry for indirect fire .

In our games the standard Scorpion gets targeted because it's slow
enough to hit at range . A quick kill  gains you  an advantage during
the initiative phase .
Also don't count on the MG keeping infantry at bay . It's to slow in built
up terrain to keep infantry from getting within your hex where you can't return fire .

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

If you have a mercenary company or interstellar military force, the best answer is either sell or scrap them all, or hand it over the local militia and forget about it. These are crap, especially for the forces that needs to move by dropships, but at least it's better than stock infantry who have nothing more than body armor and a rifle. And that's the advantage of light tanks, especially for not fast cheapshot lights.

Anyway it is cheap, and stock AC/5 has long arm at least and allows to keep distance to not get caught in medium or shorter range while your frontliners are alive.

[Dapper Apples]

its a field gun on wheels treads.

[Liam's Ghost]

Mass them in large numbers, put on appropriate music and advance until the enemy is gone.

Okay, it might not be the best use of them, but it is fun.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well, what if YOU are gone?

[Liam's Ghost]

Well, what if YOU are gone?

Then it ceases to be my problem, comrade. 

[Scotty]

Scorpions are the unfortunate combination of individually weak, cheap, and just durable enough to be irritating.  This makes them generally at best something you use to fill out weird BV gaps or to pump up your numbers cheaply.

This represents a problem in a pick-up game, where number of units is by far the thing that makes games take longer.  Their best use is as an OpFor unit for a GM'd campaign, where their low BV allows for decent numbers of enemies without making those enemies appreciably more dangerous, and where their loss is not merely a lack of disadvantage, it's an outright benefit.

[SCC]

Scorpion's and Vedette's suffer from a couple of FASA introduced problems, the first is the idea that their cheap (On a planet that lacks a native petrochemical industry and where their the only vehicles that are self-powered [the presumable norm in the early days]) the second is that BT can do the sorts of games it works on. Realistically such units fall between the two classes of units that perform scouting, leaving them as the odd ducks.

[Weirdo]

Scorpions are the unfortunate combination of individually weak, cheap, and just durable enough to be irritating.

Interestingly, I see the above as their greatest strengths. They're weak enough and durable enough that the enemy doesn't really *want* to shoot them, and putting one or two in a lance allows you to bulk up the other lance members without seriously compromising the overall lance. They're a boon during force building, and in combat they're a psychological tool because they're weak and durable which makes you want to ignore them, but they're just barely strong enough that you can't really afford to.

[glitterboy2098]

there is also something to be said for the fact that being cheap (and simple to make, setting wise) allows you to take large numbers of them. in terms of both BV and c-bill cost, you can afford to deploy Scorpions in battalion strength or higher for every company of mechs, and their firepower is better than a lot of 25 ton mechs of equivalent era. especially in terms of their range. and they're mobile enough to actually try and keep that range open where they can avoid heavy return fire and to gang up on isolated enemies to concentrate their attacks. smartly deployed they can be very effective.

[Daryk]

It strikes me two LRM-5s and an SRM-2 will fit in a half-ton turret.  I won't post the design here (since this isn't the design forums), but that would be cheaper in C-Bill terms at least.  There's certainly room for things at the low end that others will underestimate... 

[Scotty]

Interestingly, I see the above as their greatest strengths.

The reason this is unfortunate is it encourages talking a lot of them, and "lots of units" is the absolute fastest way to turn a game of BattleTech boring as shit and taking way too long.

[Empyrus]

The reason this is unfortunate is it encourages talking a lot of them, and "lots of units" is the absolute fastest way to turn a game of BattleTech boring as shit and taking way too long.

Now i'm wondering if someone, somewhere, sometime, has brought a battalion's worth of 5/6 Scorpions to a 10k BV game. (Figure sheer volume of fire compensates for low skills at this point.)

[Sir Chaos]

Now i'm wondering if someone, somewhere, sometime, has brought a battalion's worth of 5/6 Scorpions to a 10k BV game. (Figure sheer volume of fire compensates for low skills at this point.)

I am confident in stating that nobody ever did so twice. Either it didn´t work, or nobody wanted to play with them again. Or both.

[House Davie Merc]

Now i'm wondering if someone, somewhere, sometime, has brought a battalion's worth of 5/6 Scorpions to a 10k BV game. (Figure sheer volume of fire compensates for low skills at this point.)

People wonder why whenever the scenario allows it I almost always field at least one mech with
some form of twin PPCs .
THIS is why I like to field at least one unit with a pair of heavy long range weapons that
won't run out of ammo .

Sooner or later I wind up playing " that guy " .

[Empyrus]

'Mechs can melee and tanks can ram, no need for energy weapons 

[Weirdo]

The reason this is unfortunate is it encourages talking a lot of them, and "lots of units" is the absolute fastest way to turn a game of BattleTech boring as shit and taking way too long.

Everything can be taken too far. The line between 'numerical superiority' and 'swarm' is a blurry one I'll admit, but I'm usually against attempts to use hard unit limits to prevent the latter, because they're almost always way too low to allow someone a fun-but-not-abusive combined arms force.

[SCC]

Everything can be taken too far. The line between 'numerical superiority' and 'swarm' is a blurry one I'll admit, but I'm usually against attempts to use hard unit limits to prevent the latter, because they're almost always way too low to allow someone a fun-but-not-abusive combined arms force.

That said using vehicles with long range weapons for horde tactics probably makes more sense then 'Mechs, the vehicles are more replaceable and the long range weapons are a better choice.

[Natasha Kerensky]

'Mechs can melee and tanks can ram, no need for energy weapons 

Against this star, I bid a regiment and a half of Flatbed Trucks.

[Empyrus]

Against this star, I bid a regiment and a half of Flatbed Trucks.

150 Flatbed Truck (Mortar) would cost 9750 BV... mm hmm. This has potential.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I understand why Clans needs a lots of Solahma.

[Daryk]

To which the IS just calls up the reserves... 

[Charistoph]

To which the IS just calls up the reserves... 

And/or the artillery....

[Daryk]

Heh... that should be standard with any IS formation, but agreed! 

[DevianID]

So lets look at scorpions from a fluff POV.  Here we have a light tank with armor that technical and infantry forces can not beat easily despite being only 64 points, and it mounts a machine gun and multipurpose AC/5.  So flak, tracer, and eventually AP or guided ammo, plus standard warcrime machinegun stuff.  Flak is probably the standard ammo you want your scorpions to carry as it is good versus infantry and flyers as well.  A group of Scorpions can defend against almost any local tech B militia force a planet can throw at it, and it is cheap enough that you will have a lance of scorpions on hand at every important location.

Now, as an attacking force, scorpions are garbage.  They take up too much transport space for interstellar combat deployments and are better packed up in cargo ships and rolled out and reassembled over a week or month as part of a multiple year garrison deployment.  You want goblins, maxims and such in your light vehicle bays for planetary assault combat drops, not scorpions.

Also, scorpions are not there to stop mechs or heavy armor--they are too slow to interdict Calvary or chase linebreakers, and are not armored enough to be line units.  They are good against infantry, thus are great tanks to support infantry in battletech for very low BV games.  In real life, a scorpion is akin to the Sherridan that could actually take an RPG hit, which would have made the lightweight sherridan a great infantry support tank.

Using scorpions in games, a lance of scorpions alongside 3 platoons of infantry would make a reasonable heavy infantry company to add in any time the defender can call on local support.

[BATTLEMASTER]

The alternate AC munitions make me wish the Scorpion had more than one ton of ammo available.  I don't expect them to last long enough to fire 20 shots, so I'd always load precision AC/5 ammo for that maximum -2 target to-hit modifier.

I'm not exactly a fan of the mismatched LRM launchers on the LRM variant since that just takes more special ammo away from the main LRM-10 launcher.  The LRM-5 might be best loaded with smoke or frag missiles, though.

The SRM variant is just awesome.  There's enough ammo carried to allow for mixed roles in one battle, with infernos being a sweet option.

And the dual medium laser variant is for the times where you really want to kill hardened targets.

I'm not as fond of the higher-tech variants, one having an MRM-20 and the other dual LAC/2s, though the minesweeper variant definitely has its use.

[Empyrus]

I'm not as fond of the higher-tech variants, one having an MRM-20

This is the first time ever i've seen MRMs getting described as higher tech. They're implicitly something that could've been during the Succession Wars even...

Figure the MRM variant sounds actually pretty good for ambushes or city fighting. To-hit penalty is small enough and you got ammo to take any and all possible shots. MRM-20 can be used for mine clearing if necessary, or for suppressing fire (if one is using those rules). It has 4x damage potential of the original Scorpion.
Though i grant the SRM version maybe about as useful in similar places overall (SMRs can't be used for mine clearing, but is as good for suppressing fire). Then again MRM-20 has just enough sandblasting power to create vulnerabilities for SRMs. Say, a lance with 2xMRM variant and 2xSRM variant.

Should pair nicely with the UrbanMech R68 too, which sports a hilarious MRM-30 in place of the original autocannon. It is not a Scorpion that is modestly usable everywhere, but in correct environments it should be good.
(Also, today i learned Sarna doesn't have "Urbie" redirecting to UrbanMech page.)

[BATTLEMASTER]

This is the first time ever i've seen MRMs getting described as higher tech. They're implicitly something that could've been during the Succession Wars even...

I agree with you.  I was describing the variant's ruleset, introtech vs. standard.

[Weirdo]

I got some good use out of the MRM Scorpion, as bodyguards for Arrow Demolishers.

[DevianID]

The best part of the MLAS version is the 1 ton infantry bay, which really doubles down on the scorpion being a great infantry support tank.

[BATTLEMASTER]

Now i'm wondering if someone, somewhere, sometime, has brought a battalion's worth of 5/6 Scorpions to a 10k BV game. (Figure sheer volume of fire compensates for low skills at this point.)

I'm curious: How does this look using Alpha Strike or Battleforce?

[Empyrus]

I'm curious: How does this look using Alpha Strike or Battleforce?

11 points per Scorpion is the base value (i don't know the AS skill adjustment cost as i don't play that). A battalion is 36 units, so that is 396 PV. Not sure but i think 400 PV is about the normal AS game?

[Elmoth]

200-300 for fast games. 400 for company size games. 500 for a whole afternoon

So yeah, you can use a batallion of them in regular AS. We did it once. We will not repeat since it was a breaking ball against a company of mechs. Attrition played in the tanks favor.

[Weirdo]

Swarms of almost any kind can very easily break a game of Battletech, regardless of the system. It's up to each group to decide amongst themselves how to avoid such scenarios while still allowing folks who like decent numbers of lighter units to actually enjoy the game.

The best part of the MLAS version is the 1 ton infantry bay, which really doubles down on the scorpion being a great infantry support tank.

...I had completely forgotten about the infantry bay. This thing suddenly rockets WAY up in my esteem as a backbone of urban defense militias, and possibly some of the more heavily armed police forces.

[Hellraiser]

GM provides them as cannon fodder.

Militia tanks. Buy a number of them, quantity may appear scary enough to scare would-be attackers away.

Oppressing peasants and their cows.

This covers it.

[glitterboy2098]

does 2 companies of Scorpions, a demi-company of VTOLs, and a battalion of Mechanized (Wheeled) infantry count?

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/votw-scorpion/msg1315236/#msg1315236

never actually ran it (though i am building a similar set up with 18 Goblins, two companies of infantry, two artillery batteries, and VTOL support as an AS project: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/ersatzkampfgruppe-hagen-detachment-bravo/ )

[Daryk]

Certainly less scary than at the TW level... 

[DevianID]

The main issue I have with massively outnumbering your opponent with something cheap is the ability to move block fast things.  If you have 6 to 1 odds, you can put a scorpion or savanah or whatever in all 6 hexes of some fast unit that closed to shoot you, and now that fast unit loses all it's TMM for the next turn and dies for silly reasons.  The counter to mass numbers is slow plodding gameplay where you might spend 10 turns sniping each enemy before taking a single step away from the board edge--this is not a fun way to play.  Thus limiting the total number of units you can bring to avoid the swarm issue is best. 

Also, swarms suffer greatly versus artillery and such, so its not like they dont have a counter, and its not like players or commanders dont have intel on the enemy composition before a game/battle, so someone running 36 scorpions is the same as someone running 300 minefields--it doesnt represent a realistic force.

[Mendrugo]

I actually got enough Scorpions and Vedettes to equip a 3025-era Capellan Home Guard unit.  I like using units that are consistent with canon formations, and seeing what they can accomplish.

That being said, yeah - these are cannon fodder.  I once witnessed a lone Awesome taking out an entire Vedette company, coring one each turn and shrugging off their AC/5s when they did manage to connect.

[Elmoth]

Also, swarms suffer greatly versus artillery and such, so its not like they dont have a counter, and its not like players or commanders dont have intel on the enemy composition before a game/battle, so someone running 36 scorpions is the same as someone running 300 minefields--it doesnt represent a realistic force.

I disagree with the last part. Scorpions are aplenty in the IS, much more than mechs. In fact what is unrealistic is more mech on mech than mech on scorpion.

[phoenixalpha]

Light tanks like the Scorpion should be used in the same way the T34 was used during WW2 ie masses of them.

They bring a mech lance you bring a battalion of Scorpions.

Quantity has a quality itself.

[BATTLEMASTER]

I disagree with the last part. Scorpions are aplenty in the IS, much more than mechs. In fact what is unrealistic is more mech on mech than mech on scorpion.

It's too bad the traditional rules don't adequately support such scenarios.  That's why I was asking about AS and BF.  Although vehicle lance movement rules help with that at standard BattleTech scale!

[DevianID]

I disagree with the last part. Scorpions are aplenty in the IS, much more than mechs. In fact what is unrealistic is more mech on mech than mech on scorpion.

It's too bad the traditional rules don't adequately support such scenarios.  That's why I was asking about AS and BF.  Although vehicle lance movement rules help with that at standard BattleTech scale!

Im not disagreeing that the enemy doesnt have 36 scorpions.  Im disagreeing with them having 36 306bv scorpions IN ONE PLACE that the enemy didnt see happening 10 miles away to send a couple of bombers out to.  11k BV is about 8-10 mechs, so about 4-5 mapsheets of play space for an 11k versus 11k battle.  If we bump it to 12k v 12k and 6 maps total, the 36 scorpions are STILL crowded in the play space the BV corresponds to, and should expect to be vulnerable to high altitude bombing runs.  Such a high concentration of units 100% would be noticed on a strategic scale, after all.  4 scorpions and some infantry and conventionals as a local guard supporting a veteran heavy battle lance is a much better 11-12k force concentration for the maps and BV chosen.  Forcing your opponent to play on 15-20 maps so your cheap battalion doesnt get bombed out of their otherwise tiny deployment zone is unrealistic and unfair to the opponent who brought a balanced force.

[Kovax]

Light tanks like the Scorpion should be used in the same way the T34 was used during WW2 ie masses of them.

They bring a mech lance you bring a battalion of Scorpions.

Quantity has a quality itself.

I find it more effective to use a group of them to support a group of 'Mechs, rather than a more homogenous force.  The Scorpions are a bit on the squishy side, especially at short range, but they're cheap and bring a decent amount of firepower for the price tag.  If you're shooting at them as they sit back behind the front line and pour shots downrange, it's keeping my more valuable 'Mechs on that front line alive longer.  You basically need the 'Mechs to baby-sit the tanks and keep the other guys from doing a happy dance on top of them.  Unescorted, they're best used as "mooks" for a weak OPFOR.  As fire support for a font-line group, they're reasonably viable.

[Weirdo]

Pretty much this. Scorpions rarely win fights, but they're fairly good at helping others win. Fight-helpers usually perform very poorly unless they're used in conjunction with fight-winners.

Fight-helpers find it very hard to win against fight-winners by themselves, except in the very rare circumstances that are tailored to fit their strengths, or when deployed in truly ludicrous numbers that mask the huge casualties they'll take.

[TigerShark]

Pretty much this. Scorpions rarely win fights, but they're fairly good at helping others win. Fight-helpers usually perform very poorly unless they're used in conjunction with fight-winners.

Fight-helpers find it very hard to win against fight-winners by themselves, except in the very rare circumstances that are tailored to fit their strengths, or when deployed in truly ludicrous numbers that mask the huge casualties they'll take.

Exactly. They're there to cause the damage while the "big bad" draws fire and/or takes out important units. For example, having some "jump 7" irritant plaguing your rear will force you to fire at the important target while Scorpions do plinking damage. That still fits the "militia" narrative of the design quite well, while still being a legitimate threat.

[theagent]

Im not disagreeing that the enemy doesnt have 36 scorpions.  Im disagreeing with them having 36 306bv scorpions IN ONE PLACE that the enemy didnt see happening 10 miles away to send a couple of bombers out to.  11k BV is about 8-10 mechs, so about 4-5 mapsheets of play space for an 11k versus 11k battle.  If we bump it to 12k v 12k and 6 maps total, the 36 scorpions are STILL crowded in the play space the BV corresponds to, and should expect to be vulnerable to high altitude bombing runs.  Such a high concentration of units 100% would be noticed on a strategic scale, after all.  4 scorpions and some infantry and conventionals as a local guard supporting a veteran heavy battle lance is a much better 11-12k force concentration for the maps and BV chosen.  Forcing your opponent to play on 15-20 maps so your cheap battalion doesnt get bombed out of their otherwise tiny deployment zone is unrealistic and unfair to the opponent who brought a balanced force.

Which is why the GM in charge of the scenario (or at least the one creating it) would have the last word on allowing it.  That being said, you'd be talking about more than just 6 mapsheets.  The suggested rule is 1 mapsheet per 4 units on the field...not 4 units per side on the battlefield.  36 Scorpions vs. 8 'Mechs is 44 units, which works out to 11 mapsheets, more likely 12 so that you don't have a weird mapsheet configuration (probably 4x3 or 2x6).  Even if it works out to each 'Mech facing off against a lance of Scorpions (with a reserve lance probably helping out against the more powerful units), it's going to be harder on 12 mapsheets to completely block off the 'Mechs.

[theagent]

It strikes me two LRM-5s and an SRM-2 will fit in a half-ton turret.  I won't post the design here (since this isn't the design forums), but that would be cheaper in C-Bill terms at least.  There's certainly room for things at the low end that others will underestimate... 

Actually, you could probably fit 2 LRM-5s & an SRM-6 in the turret (7 tons in the turret, with the extra ton used for the additional ammo needed), or go full-on Age of War & get 3 SRM-2 in the turret...

[theagent]

The main issue with the Scorpion for the traditional role that light tanks are used for is its lack of speed.  4/6 is not bad...but it's the "standard" speed for most Battle or Assault Lances (as evidenced by 'Mech designs like the Hunchback, Warhammer, Archer, Marauder, Orion, etc.).  With that speed, it's not really going to be operating well in the recon role.

However, it would work well in lances as a "screener" for 'Mech Assault/Battle lances, as it can keep up with the heavy units while providing some long-range sniping cover fire and/or working as a "picket force" to help keep flanking attacks down to a minimum.

From an in-game perspective, though, their primary purpose appears to be to essentially work in a Light Battle Lance.  The standard Scorpion Light Tank is a Brawler, so pair up 3 of them with a Scout tracked unit (like the GAL-100 Galleon or a Heavy Tracked APC), & you meet all of the requirements.  You can also create a Fire Lance (generic) or Fire Support Lance (IFx ability) with the Scorpion LRM variant (kind of like how you can with the TR-A-6 Toro 'Mech).  And if you pair up 2 standard Scorpions with an LRM variant & either the ML or SRM variant (both Juggernauts), you have a Command Lance.  So you have the perfect combinations to make anything from a Company to an entire Regiment of Scorpions (1 of each Lance type for a Company; Battalion could have a Battle Company of 2 Battle Lances + 1 Command, Fire Company with 2 Fire/Fire Support Lances + 1 Command, or 1 Company with each Lance type; Regiment could have any combination of the company types).  Note that, from a BV & PV perspective, the 25-ton Scorpion is nearly identical to the Intro-tech versions of the 20-ton Stinger and Wasp 'Mechs, so it's not outside the realm of possibilities to use them against Light 'Mech forces.

[Qoonpooka]

The alternate AC munitions make me wish the Scorpion had more than one ton of ammo available.  I don't expect them to last long enough to fire 20 shots, so I'd always load precision AC/5 ammo for that maximum -2 target to-hit modifier.

THIS. Precision ammo in the AC/5, while a fairly big investment compared to the cost of the platform, turns the bog-standard Scorpion into a light 'mech's worst nightmare. Suddenly their speed is no defense, and an AC/5 *hurts* a light 'mech (Panther and Urbie notwithstanding). As noted elsewhere, they're juuuust tanky enough to require effort to kill, so if their enemy fields light 'mechs they do a good job of pulling fire from heavier units for a round or two.

As a GM I run 'em as stormtrooper op-for, for like, a dozen games. And then, after introducing Precision Ammo elsewhere, I drop a couple of these into a battle with the ammo swap and man, oh man, do players never see it coming.

[Charistoph]

Which is why the GM in charge of the scenario (or at least the one creating it) would have the last word on allowing it.  That being said, you'd be talking about more than just 6 mapsheets.  The suggested rule is 1 mapsheet per 4 units on the field...not 4 units per side on the battlefield.  36 Scorpions vs. 8 'Mechs is 44 units, which works out to 11 mapsheets, more likely 12 so that you don't have a weird mapsheet configuration (probably 4x3 or 2x6).  Even if it works out to each 'Mech facing off against a lance of Scorpions (with a reserve lance probably helping out against the more powerful units), it's going to be harder on 12 mapsheets to completely block off the 'Mechs.

There are ways to improve things.  Moving and firing Scorpions as pairs, which reduces it to 18 active participants on the one side (though still 36 actual targets).  Still a lot to work with, but they are simple units which will speed up the game and allow for a bit smaller map when looking at actively running 26 units.

[Colt Ward]

To me the Scorpion, and larger Vedette, also get more dangerous if you use Rapid Fire AC advanced rule.  I like it because it helps offset the ammo risk in any era and it is a lot of fun-  my two kills already, moderately damaged Hunchback walks through the smoke field in a double blind fight to find a pristine Atlas 2 hexes away . . . YOLO!, hold the trigger down.  Smoke clears, and holy crap the HBK is still alive and the Atlas is confetti b/c the double tap got to some ammo.  For a large battle, having the Scorpions and Vedettes going to rapid fire is a good risk-reward decision IMO.  Both designs are thin enough armored they would not stand up to much attention and the risk of the AC going boom is low enough the increased damage compensates . . . at least against assaults & fire support.

But for all the Scorpion talk, folks are forgetting a lot of the other faster light tanks- the aforementioned Galleon, Chevalier (fav), Main Gauche, Nacon, Mithras, Kruger, and Hunter to name a few.  Which gets down to fire support or skirmishers (who screen) . . . I am leaving the hovers out simply b/c hover tactics tend not to care about the size of the unit, and they all have to be moving.  Unlike having a FWL fire support light tank (normal) lance of 2 Main Gauche and 2 Hunter LST, which would ideally park somewhere to fire in support of a heavy company and toddle forward behind the mech's battle line.

So for tracked/wheeled light tanks?  I think it comes down to cheap/spread out fire support or skirmishers who either screen the flanks (yeah, Scorpions can do this for assaults) or are out front to make contact like the Chevalier, Kruger or Nacon.

[DevianID]

I think the scorpion is the punching bag because faster tanks like the chevalier cost a lot more points.  The chev is 668 and has a worse motive type but way better weapons.  That said, it's 16 chevs for 35 scorpions, and the scariest thing vehicles can do is abuse numbers.  16 chevs are probably gonna fight better, but 35 scorpions can move block fast mechs by moving 6 units to the enemies 1.  Obviously Savannah cheese is even better at move blocking, but you get the point about zerg rushing requiring a certain critical mass of unit activation superiority.

[Ruger]

I’ve always had a fondness for the simplicity of the Scorpion light tank.

But that being said, you can make it really nasty with some slight tweaks to the design.

Ruger

[Colt Ward]

IMO, it, the Vedette, and Po should all have ended up with all sorts of 'local' refits-  FF armor, changes in AC type/caliber as soon as the gun became common FREX, UAC/5 Po.  Same should have happened to the Missile main gun designs.

Basically think of all the variants old common chassis got IRL-  How many M113 derivatives were created?  What about T-55 mods?

[Hellraiser]

IMO, it, the Vedette, and Po should all have ended up with all sorts of 'local' refits-  FF armor, changes in AC type/caliber as soon as the gun became common FREX, UAC/5 Po.  Same should have happened to the Missile main gun designs.

Basically think of all the variants old common chassis got IRL-  How many M113 derivatives were created?  What about T-55 mods?

Agreed.

I wasn't a fan that we got 2 different UAC5 models but then I did enjoy seeing the LB5X model.
The RAC5/LtGauss were both a bit much but I'd have loved a RAC-2 option.

I also always wanted to see a LRM15 Vedette for the Introtech era.
And a Vedette-"pocket heavy" that dropped the engine to a 200 ICE to mount a bigger gun like AC10/LB10X/AC20
LAC5-Vedette w/ heavier armor would have also been good while Twin-LAC2-Vet kept the original Speed/armor.

[Daryk]

The ad copy I wrote for my (Quickcell) PPC Scorpion went something like "TWICE the firepower, ALL the protection and mobility, HALF the crew, 90% the cost of a Vedette!" 

[Qoonpooka]

The ad copy I wrote for my (Quickcell) PPC Scorpion went something like "TWICE the firepower, ALL the protection and mobility, HALF the crew, 90% the cost of a Vedette!" 

Yeah, but it's still Quickcell... so you're just as likely to lose a tech to electrocution when they try to assemble the damned thing as not...

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but it's still Quickcell... so you're just as likely to lose a tech to electrocution when they try to assemble the damned thing as not...

Yeah, with Quikcell you WANT to buy the DIY kit . . . because then you can be sure your techs also put Quality Control into building the equipment.  I had a whole RP bit for a campaign where the new tech out of training is complaining about having to build Condor hovertanks from kits.  The grizzled old tech tells a horror story about working on a factory-built Quikcell before pointing out by eyeball some part in the kit that needs to be replaced that would take hours to dig into the chassis to replace.

[Qoonpooka]

Yeah, with Quikcell you WANT to buy the DIY kit . . . because then you can be sure your techs also put Quality Control into building the equipment.  I had a whole RP bit for a campaign where the new tech out of training is complaining about having to build Condor hovertanks from kits.  The grizzled old tech tells a horror story about working on a factory-built Quikcell before pointing out by eyeball some part in the kit that needs to be replaced that would take hours to dig into the chassis to replace.

*ahem* YOINK.

[Colt Ward]

IRL experiences . . . the old M577 was replaced with the upgrade M1068.  And the 1068 was great for a lot of things- more power, better generator set up, etc.  But you got more power in the engine by them giving it something like 50% more horsepower, so a larger engine.  The old engine did not fill the compartment and you could get around it easier and get to some other parts with a bit of stretching.  New larger engine fills the compartment, you cannot get under it as much . . . The hydraulic pump to the ramp goes out . . . trace the hydraulic line . . . right to the point it goes through the hull and you find the pump is under/near the engine which now blocks access.  They had to remove the armor engine cover & hoist that out of the way, disconnect the PAK- what they call the engine & transmission, hoist that up out of the hull, then replace a simple little pump that rests up against the bottom of the hull inside the engine compartment.

We MIGHT have bottomed out the APC on a few ditches going at speed cross country a couple of times, speed & vegetation hiding the same ditch twice.  I know the hull got a divot in the front.  So maybe slamming down like that broke the pump . . .

[Daryk]

I heard a story about an LAV variant that came back from a training exercise with a cracked hull.  The entire crew swore on a stack they didn't know how it happened.  Unfortunately for them, their LT drove a jeep around the exercise area and found a sand dune where the LAV tracks suddenly stopped.  On the other side of the dune, there was a bit of a crater in the sand, and more tracks leading away... 

[Sabelkatten]

Anything is an aircraft if it goes fast enough.

[CVB]

Actually, it's everything can fly with enough power.
Gentlepersons, behold the Flying Barn Door!
Given the aerodynamic shape, the flight chararcteristics are surprisingly benign...

[Charistoph]

The reminds me of the old adage, "Anything can dropped from orbit. Once".

[Daryk]

Maxim 11 is actually "Anything is air-droppable at least once." 

[Charistoph]

Maxim 11 is actually "Anything is air-droppable at least once." 

Air drop/orbital drop.  The only difference is altitude.

[Daryk]

True, true... I just love me some Schlock Mercenary! 

[Qoonpooka]

Air drop/orbital drop.  The only difference is altitude.

Technically, because of the mechanics of being in orbit, there's also a difference in attitude. Double entendre intended.

[Coldstone]

BV Fillers. Yes. But quite effective ones.
Otherwise: Exchange the AC for an LRM 15 with additional Missiles and you have quite a nice Fire support Tank.
But there is the Bulldog for this usage which has an official LRM Variant. (Along with the Peashooter Variant).

I eventually would switch the original AC for its LBX Variant. Longer Range. Its low BV is what makes this tank usable.

[Col Toda]

The only light tank I have seen frequently used is The Pegasus Scout.  TAG Active Probe medium Laser 2 SRM launcher. Ammo might be mine clearing if your intel tells you mine use is common in the theater

[Coldstone]

I use the J. Edgar very much. Either it its orignal Med LAser 2 SRM2 config in 3025 games or the upgraded TAG Variant (Along with ARROW Demolishers or Chaparalls).

[truetanker]

A Star of Mithras can ruin a day, imagine a Star of multiple Pike C with supporting Demolisher C bodyguard, hilarious hijinks insure!

TT

[Kovax]

I use the J. Edgar very much. Either it its orignal Med LAser 2 SRM2 config in 3025 games or the upgraded TAG Variant (Along with ARROW Demolishers or Chaparalls).

Ah yes, the J. Edgar provides an excellent cheap counter to the expensive heavy support vehicle.  Race in at flank speed to the side arc of the bigger tank, inside the minimum range of its main guns/missiles, then unleash SRM/ML spam to maximize the odds of motive critical hits.  I've often wondered how many of the younger players are oblivious to the joke in the name of the vehicle.

[truetanker]

J. Edgar hovercraft  is a knife fighter, rush in and stab while retreating the same time.

J. Edgar Hoover was also a real life knife fighter in a sense as well. He preferred charging in for the kill and galloping away fast repeating the same saber slash in the process.

TT

[CVB]

J. Edgar hovercraft  is a knife fighter, rush in and stab while retreating the same time.

J. Edgar Hoover was also a real life knife fighter in a sense as well. He preferred charging in for the kill and galloping away fast repeating the same saber slash in the process.

TT

Depending on which rumors you believe, you might want to ruminate about the obvious fact that hover tanks use skirts...

[Daryk]

Yes, yes... it was a triple entendre... 

[truetanker]

Didn't Mr. Hoover dressed up as a woman for a sting operation...

 

TT

[CVB]

Don't know what he has collected about me, so I can neither deny nor confirm anything 

[truetanker]

" Tell Uncle Sam where the bad man hurt you and mark it on this old FASA Battlemech Recordsheet. "

TT

[kaliban]

if you think strictly on canon tracked designs 35 tons or under, you actually have few alternatives: Heavy APCs (transports with limited firepower), the Scorpions, the Galleon (fast but badly armed and armored), the Hunter (fast and useful but expensive missile boat) and the extinct Main Gauche. On a limited budget, a combination of different variants of the Scorpion and Heavy APCs carrying infantry can be annoying in a low BV encounter and playing defensive roles.

Keeping the budget low but more flexible you can combine it with other cheap vehicles: Warrior VTOLs, Saladin/Scimitar/Saracen hovercrafts, Strikers and Hetzers.

I have tried a combination of Warrior 7As, Hetzer (std) and Hetzer (SRM) with good results. The Hetzer ambushes and the Warrior flanks. You may add some Scorpions to this formation.

[Mendrugo]

Now, if you want to go super old-school, you could pair a trio of light tanks with a Scorpion 'Mech as a hunter-killer team.  (As laid out in the BattleDroids model kit from TCI.)  And why not use Scorpion tanks to harmonize the naming conventions?

[Charistoph]

Now, if you want to go super old-school, you could pair a trio of light tanks with a Scorpion 'Mech as a hunter-killer team.  (As laid out in the BattleDroids model kit from TCI.)  And why not use Scorpion tanks to harmonize the naming conventions?

3 Scorpions with a Scorpion?  MADNESS!!   

[Liam's Ghost]

3 Scorpions with a Scorpion?  MADNESS!!   

Next thing you know you'll have marauders riding marauders!

[Daryk]

That sounds like a very good combo! 

[CVB]

Next thing you know you'll have marauders riding marauders!

Or a Behemoth DS full of Behemoth 'mechs, Behemoth and Behemoth II tanks...

[Colt Ward]

the extinct Main Gauche.

Huh?  The Main Gauche survived the Jihad, being built on Kendall by Brooks Inc still per OR-FWL.  While the MUL may not show it for the Republic or Dark Ages, nothing has ever indicated it went out of production.  Considering it is #1 on a non-aligned FWL world (double ignored!), #2 a vehicle, and #3 not a original/recurring vehicle (Saracen, etc), the lack of a update for it in the 'unfinished' eras of the MUL is not surprising.  Considering all four are listed in the MUL as still available from production up to the current time, it is just a lack of update.

Honestly, I always wanted to mass a heavy platoon of Main Gauche to support my mechs, park each one in light woods and just fling metal down range.

[Charistoph]

Next thing you know you'll have marauders riding marauders!

A combination of Scorpions and Marauders could make for an interesting Level II.  It's kind of too bad that CVs don't count for 2 in them like they do with the Clans.

[Colt Ward]

Capellan Augmented Lance, sort of- 2 Marauders & 4 Scorpions of various models.  Should be under 4k letting you skill up the Marauders & Scorpions gunnery . . .

[truetanker]

Capellan Augmented Lance, sort of- 2 Marauders & 4 Scorpions of various models.  Should be under 4k letting you skill up the Marauders & Scorpions gunnery . . .

Wouldn't a Pair of Scorpion-12M's and four LAC Scorpion tanks work better? Especially if your using precision ammo...

TT