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Author Topic: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V  (Read 3651 times)

Jellico

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Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« on: 23 August 2020, 06:19:47 »
In the red corner.
Streak LRM10
5 Tons
4 Heat with Streak
12 rounds per ton
10 damage.

In the blue corner
LRM15 + Artemis V
5 tons
5 heat
8 rounds per ton
12 damage with -1 to-hit or
9 damage under ECM.

The LRM is more damaging in a permissive environment. You could say 1/3 more damaging.  Weaker in ECM.
Little bit heavier because of the ammo. Little bit hotter. I would go as far as to say the Streak is effectively 2 or 3 heat.

So. Who wins?

Empyrus

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #1 on: 23 August 2020, 06:43:50 »
Which one fits better. The latter takes 4 slots, not always an option.

Space aside, there's also another thing to consider: LRMs with Artemis still offer alternative munition and indirect fire options. Yes, you lose the Artemis bonus, but you do have greater flexibility if needed.

Hard to pick between these really. I dislike Artemis systems due to their extra mass, ECM weakness, and being deadweight if alternate munitions or indirect fire is wanted. The bonuses are good but... well, ECM is just a smidgen too common.
If Streak LRMs weren't as massive and maybe had extra range (like [Clan] Streak SRMs vs SRMs), they'd be an easy choice.

If i'm building a unit, i'm inclined to use standard LRMs without Artemis. But if i pick a canonical sheet, i can work with either, with no preference provided the unit in question otherwise fills my needs.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #2 on: 23 August 2020, 06:53:41 »
I'd say ditch the Artemis V and load anti-radiation rounds into the launcher.

Empyrus

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #3 on: 23 August 2020, 07:00:57 »
ARADs aren't good against everything, they have penalties if a target does not have electronics or isn't tagged with a Narc pod, +2 to hit and -2 to cluster hit roll.
EDIT In case someone hadn't noticed, errata increased communications equipment minimum tonnage to 3.5 tons (this was done after it was ruled all 'Mechs and combat vehicles had 1 ton of communications equipment-equivalent included already.)
« Last Edit: 23 August 2020, 07:02:51 by Empyrus »
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #4 on: 23 August 2020, 18:55:29 »
I tend to favor accuracy above most other factors so Artemis V gets my provisional vote.

Col Toda

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #5 on: 24 August 2020, 02:59:50 »
Streak 10 . Had a jumping mech with 2 Streak 10s and ER PPC and er med lasers . I could jump fire the streaks every turn and miss and not fire  enough to keep a no penalty due to heat . Ammo is never wasted heat balance due to hit and miss odds is better . LRMs is only better  when you have ammo and excess heat sinks to burn .

StoneRhino

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #6 on: 24 August 2020, 06:34:27 »
if i'm picking one of the two then its the lrm15. I'd rather not bother with the artemis and use that tonnage for more ammo. The reason why is that the streaks cannot indirect fire, nor use special munitions, which are prime reasons to use lrms over other weapons, especially when HAGs are an option. Nothing sucks like being in short range of a lrm boat like a nova cat or kraken who is behind a hill and doesn't really need to roll very high to hit you.

streaks would be great for players that are just looking to do raw damage with their weapons.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #7 on: 24 August 2020, 15:49:39 »
Streak loses absolutely every time. No IDF, no alternate ammo, just use an ER laser or PPC instead and get it over with.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #8 on: 24 August 2020, 15:54:20 »
  I use Streaks for one on one duels and regular LRMs for battle that allow IF.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #9 on: 24 August 2020, 17:26:50 »
In the red corner.
Streak LRM10
5 Tons
4 Heat with Streak
12 rounds per ton
10 damage.

In the blue corner
LRM15 + Artemis V
5 tons
5 heat
8 rounds per ton
12 damage with -1 to-hit or
9 damage under ECM.

The LRM is more damaging in a permissive environment. You could say 1/3 more damaging.  Weaker in ECM.
Little bit heavier because of the ammo. Little bit hotter. I would go as far as to say the Streak is effectively 2 or 3 heat.

So. Who wins?

The L15.
The advantages of the Streak system are illusionary. Sure...you can try to hit at extreme TNs, but the launcher itself is so massive that you can easily carry extra ammo. Add in the extra flexibility, less impact from ECM, IDF, etc and there really is no contest.

If the Streak system had extra range, or a TN mod, it would justify the extra mass. But as it is, it is too heavy for what it offers. But...great for flavour and gaming the BV system.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #10 on: 24 August 2020, 17:36:12 »
Frankly, the only particularly worthwhile Streak LRM is the SLRM20, because it's an auto-PSR gun. I'll use the others, don't get me wrong, but not because they're particularly optimal. So my vote is for the blue team.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #11 on: 24 August 2020, 20:16:36 »
the streak-L10's advantages really only bear it out in edge cases or situations where you somehow have advanced weapons bit need to nurse the ammo badly. in normal use, the LRM15 with or without artemis badly out performs it in a tactical sense.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #12 on: 24 August 2020, 22:09:50 »
the streak-L10's advantages really only bear it out in edge cases or situations where you somehow have advanced weapons bit need to nurse the ammo badly.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #13 on: 24 August 2020, 23:29:35 »
I'd rather have the advantage to hit my opponent more often than maximize the damage at higher THN. Give me the Artemis.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #14 on: 25 August 2020, 10:18:17 »
While I agree with the IC RecGuide justification for the Griffin C to use Streak LRMs, and was projecting it out to the campaign for Terra while fending off the green (hey look, the color of jealousy) birds . . . just like with Streak vs SRMs, I prefer the basic launcher for the utility.

And that is the break- to me utility in a campaign environment will still edge out ammo conservation.  I want more tools and options for the tactical situation- on offense or defense- than just keeping my ammo counts high.

With that said, the design of the Griffin C makes a lot of sense for its expected purpose- equipping lower-skilled forces with a good punch.  Conserving ammo with a more marginal gunner (FWL or LC abathka) is a better idea than it is with a Clan vet or elite pilot.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #15 on: 25 August 2020, 20:39:28 »
ARADs aren't good against everything, they have penalties if a target does not have electronics or isn't tagged with a Narc pod, +2 to hit and -2 to cluster hit roll.
EDIT In case someone hadn't noticed, errata increased communications equipment minimum tonnage to 3.5 tons (this was done after it was ruled all 'Mechs and combat vehicles had 1 ton of communications equipment-equivalent included already.)
1. This is the post-Jihad era, everything seems to mount ECM or something else to attract ARAD missiles these days.

2. On the off chance your target doesn't mount such equipment, Narc beacons work just as well, and the Clan honor does allow you to plant them on vehicles.

Empyrus

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #16 on: 26 August 2020, 15:08:31 »
I don't think enough units mount ECM to make ARADs standard munition choice, but there's just enough units with ECM to make Artemis useless too often.
Good Narc carriers aren't common enough to rely on them to make ARADs work against units that don't carry ECM.
ARADs can be a good choice for units with deep enough ammo bins to be sure, but not good as primary ammo option.

This based on thinking my forces and variants within them as opponents.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #17 on: 26 August 2020, 16:08:25 »
Its not just ECM- it follows NARC/iNARC beacons, enemy Artemis/Apollo, C3, BAP, and I think ComGear that is getting bonuses (init, sat, etc).  TAG?  Not sure how it acts with Stealth/Chameleon/Null-Sig since I do not have the books in front of me.

Which is 5 designs in the new Rec2, 3 in Rec4, and 1 in Rec5 . . . but considering the Classics in those RCs have the 3025 versions, its not the best measure of numbers.

I am not filling up my ammo bins with ARADs unless I have NARC/iNARC launchers in my company, but one something like a Catapult, Archer or anything with multiple bins its worth it in a company vs company battle.  You have good odds that 3 or 4 enemy mechs or vehicles will have some of those electronics.
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Kovax

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #18 on: 31 August 2020, 11:32:28 »
If I'm putting the launcher on a fast platform to harass the enemy, I'll take the Streaks.  You can keep the THNs high, and not worry about ammo or heat except when you actually do damage.  That's especially useful against any ECM units the enemy decides to put in the backfield for protection against any Artemis-equipped units in your main force.

In other situations, the non-Streak launcher allows IDF, special munitions, additional targeting options, etc.

Col Toda

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #19 on: 03 September 2020, 19:31:36 »
It is true that streaks only do direct fire but LRM fire control systems lose the benefit doing indirect fire.  You have better heat management with streak permitting a jumping unit to get high ground or position for a direct fire shot . Only in Aerospace is the LRM with Artemis V a better choice . 

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #20 on: 04 September 2020, 13:33:38 »
Incorrect. You can still use indirect fire, you just don't get the benefit of the Artemis at the same time. Same for alternate ammo.

With Streak racks, you lose the options that are the whole point of missiles.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #21 on: 06 September 2020, 05:57:50 »
I'll have to double check the rules, but I think Streak LRMs can still do IDF, they just don't function as Streak when doing so.

Brakiel

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #22 on: 06 September 2020, 09:52:43 »
I'll have to double check the rules, but I think Streak LRMs can still do IDF, they just don't function as Streak when doing so.

Nope, TacOps p327 explicitly denies using IDF. Only iATMs can do that.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #23 on: 06 September 2020, 11:40:10 »
Hence the pointlessness of SLRMs. There's nothing they bring to the board that existing energy or ballistic weapons don't already do, unless you're *really* worried about reflective or anti-ballistic armor.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #24 on: 06 September 2020, 13:37:28 »
I still have a standing challenge to beat my proof-of-concept Streak Bane in sheer long-range, sustainable firepower.  My table has brought forth no contenders.

For all the flak SLRMs tend to gather, nobody's been able to replicate it to any satisfying extent.  Not with regular LRMs, ballistics, or energy weapons.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #25 on: 06 September 2020, 14:19:24 »
Hence the pointlessness of SLRMs. There's nothing they bring to the board that existing energy or ballistic weapons don't already do, unless you're *really* worried about reflective or anti-ballistic armor.

Ballistic-Reinforced halves damage from missiles, too.

Streaks are excellent for mercenaries or other supplied-by-the-c-bill units because it turns out a ton of LRM ammo is 30,000 for a ton and Streak LRM ammo is 60,000 for a ton but you can at least be sure none of it was wasted.  Considering how often I take LRM-20 shots on 8s or 9s I wouldn't be surprised if only 1-in-4 missiles actually hit a target.  Streaks appeal to the bean-counter while also still actually doing damage.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #26 on: 06 September 2020, 15:42:24 »
Look the only reason I am looking to take a streak LMR means customs are in play and I want to exploit them.  If someone can get more use out a stock mech with streak LMRs I'm impressed, instead of something else. 

So if Streak LMRs are in play then we have access to cutting edge clan tech.  I see two reason to grab the Streaks.  Reason one I can only afford one piece of clan tech from the Foxes and I want every expensive piece of ordinance to land.  This is a bean counter issue and we aren't gonna touch more on it. 

Reason two I have lots of clan tech to play with of which ever types I want.  So I have decided to have a mech that wants to exploit the streak.  Lets look at what the streak can do.  Direct fire with clusters.  So why not just slap on an ERPPC?  The only reason is I have enough ERPPCs in my unit, which means I am working in a team and I'm not trying to get personal honor.  So I want the clusters to exploit holes and crit seek from range. 

So I want the biggest rack I can and as many of them as I can fit on my mech.  Still why not use an LBX with cluster ammo.  For some reason I don't want 1 point hit bonus, for some reason I want to shoot on bad numbers each round and not worry about heat.

The only way this makes sense is if I have skimped on heat sinks, and plan to jump every round.  It also helps if I have various missile SPAs to encourage me not use an energy weapon or an auto cannon.  Though those don't help me not choose the Art V instead.   

So that is my only reason to go with Streak LMRs.  Lots of 20s on a jump capable mechs, that skimped on heat sinks, not looking for honor, and where I have a bunch of teammates with hole punchers to make holes for me to exploit.     

The one interesting thing is that you can put AES on an arm with the LRMs to improve the accuracy.  Well yes this works with the Art V for a double bonus we hit some diminishing returns.  Also the system works better with heavy weapons because of the limited space in the arm.  While the streak system is much heavier than a regular launcher with Art V, with the 20, the Streak system is actually less bulky than a regular 20 with Art V attached.   

An edge case but an awesome one if you can exploit it.   

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #27 on: 06 September 2020, 16:40:39 »
Realistically, if Streak LRMs were going to seriously compete with Clan LRMs for any kind of position other than the benefit of ammo/heat efficiency, they needed to have more advantages than just an automatic 11 on the cluster roll.  Increased range brackets from 7/14/21 to 8/16/24 would have been a good one.  Alternately, they could have been Enhanced weight (+1/+1/+2/+2) for Clan-weight launchers of 2/3.5/5.5/7 instead of double/IS tonnage, which at equivalent tonnages compete directly with unaugmented launchers in terms of damage.

One Streak LRM-5 versus two LRM-5s is 5 points versus 6.
One Streak LRM-10 versus one LRM-15 is 10 points versus 9.
One Streak LRM-15 versus one LRM-15 and two LRM-5s is 15 points versus 15.
One Streak LRM-20 versus two LRM-15s is 20 versus 18.

Instead we got this.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #28 on: 06 September 2020, 17:48:45 »
I'd like to clarify to those convinced on the categorical inferiority of SLRMs, that my standing challenge is still active.  I can't offer anything material, but anyone that does manage to solidly beat it at its own role will win bragging rights.

After all, since the SLRM is so uncompetitive, it should be a cinch to find or make something that clobbers the proof-of-concept SLRM Bane.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #29 on: 06 September 2020, 19:25:53 »
I'd like to clarify to those convinced on the categorical inferiority of SLRMs, that my standing challenge is still active.  I can't offer anything material, but anyone that does manage to solidly beat it at its own role will win bragging rights.

After all, since the SLRM is so uncompetitive, it should be a cinch to find or make something that clobbers the proof-of-concept SLRM Bane.

At a typical TN of 7, your Streak Bane would be averaging say 50 points of damage per round at a range of up to 21 hexes with a maximum of 100 damage when the TN falls low enough.
It's impressive but it also relies on a quirk on the Streak 5 - namely, that unlike the other versions it doesn't a critical which means that you CAN pack them in. The same trick onlyworks on Mechs where space is limited. The trick won't work on a superheavy Mech or vehicles or ASFs.

Even so, "clobbering" such a beast is very possible because the Streak LRM loses quite a bit of what makes missiles systems worthwhile. No indirect fire, no alternate mnunitions, increased cost of launcher and ammunition.

And the canon Bane 2 comes close to that level of firepower without relying on such quirks. Your challenge also lacks definition and constraints - a Supernova may only be able to output a typical 30 points but it outranges and out lasts your Bane Streak. Conversely, several other designs can outdamage your Bane but you might judge the design features inadequate. But yes - your Streak Bane is impressive in its firepower but at the same time relies on various design quirks no other streak system has. If you were to compare a Streak 10 vs an LRM10 for example, your argument wouldn't work.
« Last Edit: 06 September 2020, 23:29:10 by Talen5000 »
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