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Author Topic: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V  (Read 3650 times)

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #30 on: 06 September 2020, 23:08:56 »
At a typical TN of 7, your Streak Bane would be averaging say 50 points of damage per round at a range of up to 21 hexes with a maximum of 100 damage when the TN falls low enough.
The average is ~58, actually.  Maximum is impractical due to heat sink issues (like most Clan design), but the machine can safely attempt to fire all guns at the to-hit numbers you see in practice, up to to-hit numbers as low as ~5-6.
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It's impressive but it also relies on a quirk on the Streak 5 - namely, that unlike the other versions it doesn't a critical which means that you CAN pack them in. The same trick onlyworks on Mechs where space is limited.
Clan SLRMs (and Clan SSRMs) have identical weight and crits to the IS standard, non-streak missile launchers.  The SLRM-5 is no exception to that pattern.
Even so, "clobbering" such a beast is very possible because the Streak LRM loses quite a bit of what makes missiles systems worthwhile. No indirect fire, no alternate mnunitions, increased cost of launcher and ammunition.
I meant clobbering in its battlefield role, not literally blowing it up.  I will not claim the machine is invincible to airstrikes or artillery.
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Your challenge also lacks definition and constraints
I'll provide the specifics in a new thread (Battlemech Fan Designs) soon-ish, since this thread isn't actually about the Bane 5 specifically.
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a Supernova may only be able to output a typical 30 points but it outranges and out lasts your Bane Streak.
Base Supernova has a serious heat issue and can only sustainably fire 4 of the lasers (40 points) before hitting serious overheating issues.  At a to-hit of 7, that translates to ~23 points sustained, 40% that of the Bane proof-of-concept.
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But yes - your Streak Bane is impressive in its firepower but at the same time relies on various design quirks no other streak system has.
As previously established, the SLRM-5 followed the exact same rules as all the other Clan Streak launchers.  There's no special "Streak-5" exception.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #31 on: 06 September 2020, 23:27:43 »
Clan SLRMs (and Clan SSRMs) have identical weight and crits to the IS standard, non-streak missile launchers.

A meaningless distinction. The SLRM5 is unique in that it doesn't increase in size. In this, it lacks one of the weaknesses of the Streak system as a whole.

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I meant clobbering in its battlefield role, not literally blowing it up.

Which is...? Thanks to the Streaks deficiencies, the S-LRM is not really equatable to other missile systems but is more akin to ballistic or energy weapons. Your Streak Bane is not a Juggernaut, or a Brawler or a Battler or a Missile Boat. It's a sniper...but as a sniper it can be outdone by the Clan ER Large Laser on Mechs such as the Supernova. Lighter, more mobile, longer ranged, greater endurance, lower damage, but damage that is more concentrated. A Warhawk or Hellstar is similar.

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As previously established, the SLRM-5 followed the exact same rules as all the other Clan Streak launchers.  There's no special "Streak-5" exception.

Which again doesn't change that the Streak 5 lacks one of the factors which affect other Streak systems. Other Streak LRMs are larger than their Clan counterparts. That it is stronger than the S-10, S-15 or S-20 is to be expected. Your Streak Bane works because that weakness doesn't exist for the Streak-5. That's not to take away from the power of yor Streak Bane, but it is not something that can be replicated on vehicles, on superheavy mechs, or any unit where mass is a premium instead of space. It works only because it is on a high end assault where the limit is mass, not space. On a Superheavy mech or vehicle ...that limit wouldn't apply. On a lighter design, even a lighter assault, the restrictions due to mass becomes more relevant. That is not to take away from the power of the Streak Bane...but arguing that one of the four streak launch systems can get a degree of benefit which stacked en masse in a 100 ton Mechs is hardly a ringing endorsement.

« Last Edit: 06 September 2020, 23:31:21 by Talen5000 »
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #32 on: 07 September 2020, 01:03:19 »
A meaningless distinction. The SLRM5 is unique in that it doesn't increase in size. In this, it lacks one of the weaknesses of the Streak system as a whole.
It's not unique.  The Streak series clearly has their weight and space specifications modeled off the IS standard missiles.

It would have been unique if the SLRM-5 had broken that mold increasing in size to a 2-crit weapon, as none of the other launchers (SSRM or SLRM) broke that pattern.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #33 on: 07 September 2020, 02:50:41 »
Realistically, if Streak LRMs were going to seriously compete with Clan LRMs for any kind of position other than the benefit of ammo/heat efficiency, they needed to have more advantages than just an automatic 11 on the cluster roll.  Increased range brackets from 7/14/21 to 8/16/24 would have been a good one.  Alternately, they could have been Enhanced weight (+1/+1/+2/+2) for Clan-weight launchers of 2/3.5/5.5/7 instead of double/IS tonnage, which at equivalent tonnages compete directly with unaugmented launchers in terms of damage.

One Streak LRM-5 versus two LRM-5s is 5 points versus 6.
One Streak LRM-10 versus one LRM-15 is 10 points versus 9.
One Streak LRM-15 versus one LRM-15 and two LRM-5s is 15 points versus 15.
One Streak LRM-20 versus two LRM-15s is 20 versus 18.

Instead we got this.

Just the ammo efficiency is still a good reason to use them.

For example, the Streak LRM-5 vs 2 regular LRM-5 means you might only need to take 1 ton of ammo instead of 2 tons.  That extra ton could be more armor, another heat sink, a slightly faster engine, or another weapon.

For example, the Locust-1M uses two LRM-5, and a ton of ammo.  A Locust with a single SLRM-5 would only need half a ton of ammo, freeing up half a ton of mass on the Mech.  If the Strek LRM-5 equipped Locust decided to keep the full ton of ammo, that would be a guaranteed 24 turns of fire with guaranteed hits of 5 points of damage each, instead of the regular Locust-1M getting up to 12 turns with maybe 1-2 hits per turn , and not all missiles hitting.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #34 on: 07 September 2020, 03:04:13 »
ECM. It is quite competitive in a high ECM environment.

Hence the pointlessness of SLRMs. There's nothing they bring to the board that existing energy or ballistic weapons don't already do, unless you're *really* worried about reflective or anti-ballistic armor.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #35 on: 07 September 2020, 11:10:31 »
It's not unique.

It is. It is the only streak lrm system which doesn't increase its size. That size increase is part of the pattern of matching the IS systems but whether you view it as a feature or not, it doesn't affect the ramifications.

Your Streak Bane works because the limiting factor is crit space. As you reduce the mass of the Mech, that limiting factor becomes less relevant, even allowing for the use of FF and ES. As you increase the mass, it again becomes irrelevant because of the SHM construction. Vehicles, etc also aren't subject to the same constraint.

It is a feature of the design that other Streak systems do not share. A Streak 10 takes up 2 crits, not 1. A Streak 15 3 crits rather than two.It means I can fit two LRM10s in the same space and mass as a Streak 10.

Because of this, the S5 is stronger than other systems, but its impact is noticeable only in edge cases, such as your Streak Bane. Once you start moving away from your ideal platform, this aspect becomes increasingly irrelevant.

It also says little about the Streak system as a whole nor does it really address the deficiencies of the system
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #36 on: 07 September 2020, 13:02:27 »
ECM. It is quite competitive in a high ECM environment.

And direct guns aren't? Did I miss something? ???
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #37 on: 07 September 2020, 14:02:55 »
True. Missed the guns. I was thinking in terms of LRMs.

Though the comparison with a CRAC5 is interesting and again close.
The HAGs would be interesting too, though it is a long time since I did the maths to work out if they justify their mass.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #38 on: 08 September 2020, 10:27:26 »
75-ton mech with 70 points damage output at long range, that's not too shabby. I'd say SLRM5s are pretty nice on lighter mechs too...

As a math comparison, how about this:

SLRM5 at long range: ~1 heat, 0.5 tons ammo totals 3 tons, 1.67 damage/ton

LPL at long range: TN-2 means about +100% damage, 1.82 damage/ton

Given that the LRM has a bit better range bands that's pretty close. And getting pretty close to arguably the best weapon in the game is not bad!

Btw; Never, ever, use a SLRM larger than the 5-rack. The same generally holds true for standard LRMs as well (Artemis excepted), but for the streaks the -5 is so much better it's not funny.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #39 on: 08 September 2020, 10:47:55 »
Streak-20 can force a PSR at 21 hexes. Very nice weapon the Atlas III.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #40 on: 08 September 2020, 18:42:37 »
It depends on how much BV I have, the unit's available tonnage for mounting them, the terrain, tactical needs, and the presence of ECM and C3.  Angel ECM blocks both Streak and Artemis IV/V, and it's as easily available in the post Jihad as Streak LRMs are.  If ECCM rules aren't in effect, then I'll use LRMs without either.  If they are, then I'll go with Streaks to ensure all of my missiles hit, or if I need indirect fire I'll use Artemis IV/V.  C3 also is a great multiplier for direct fire LRMs, provided you can maintain it.  Lastly, if I need specialist ammo, I won't use either and just mount plan Clan missile batteries on a target. 

The second issue is BV.  If I'm designing a force and neither type of guidance is worth the BV, then stock LRMs it is.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #41 on: 09 September 2020, 11:21:25 »
It would depend really.

1.  Logistically do I have access to both ammo in good quantity.

2.  What unit is it on?

Mechs that track heat are where I favor Streak launchers.

Meanwhile tanks that can pack in as many missiles as they can carry, & not worry about heat, I favor regular launchers so I'd say Artemis/LRM there.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #42 on: 10 September 2020, 09:20:31 »
Streak LRMs have a completely different use than standard LRMs. No IDF and no special ammo means they really compare to UACs/RACs, gauss and beams.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #43 on: 10 September 2020, 11:39:28 »
Hence the pointlessness of SLRMs. There's nothing they bring to the board that existing energy or ballistic weapons don't already do, unless you're *really* worried about reflective or anti-ballistic armor.

I don't know about that.  They seems to be in a good middle ground of mass, damage, and heat build up.  While they wouldn't be great for a dedicated missile boat like an Archer or Mad Dog/Vulture Prime who often likes to fire from behind hills, they are good weapons for other units that have them as a side weapon like the Thunderbolt or Summoner/Thor Prime.  The LRM-15 has the same mass as an AC/5, but three times firepower at one third the heat of an ER PPC.  That's not nothing.

However, as others have pointed out, some would just add the second Clan Missile Launcher in its place for greater potential of firepower.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #45 on: 10 September 2020, 14:00:08 »
As others have said, LRM+ArtemisV is pretty flexible.  Streaks grab me on mechs like the Griffin C--great for ammo conservation when you are only carrying 12 rounds.  Every missile counts in that setup.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #46 on: 10 September 2020, 14:55:29 »
As others have said, LRM+ArtemisV is pretty flexible.  Streaks grab me on mechs like the Griffin C--great for ammo conservation when you are only carrying 12 rounds.  Every missile counts in that setup.

Yes...but with a lighter launcher you can carry more ammo.
With a different launcher you can engage in indirect fire and use alternate ammunition.
The only advantage is psychological...doesn't really matter how poor a gunner you are, just keep mashing that trigger and eventually it'll fire
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #47 on: 10 September 2020, 15:33:26 »
It is significantly more BV efficient for every missile in a ton of ammo to hit than it is to carry more tons of ammo; there's a very real advantage to be had there.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #48 on: 10 September 2020, 15:41:43 »
It is significantly more BV efficient for every missile in a ton of ammo to hit than it is to carry more tons of ammo; there's a very real advantage to be had there.

Yeah...but gaming the BV system is, to me, a poor advantage. It is, however, about the only real advantage many of these new weapons have. It's an artificial advantage that reflects the board game, and its a strong one in that aspect, no doubt.

Don't get me wrong. I love the flavour and feel of many of these new systems. But I wish they simply had a place or role in the Clans arsenal that was valid.

And they don't. They might make excellent IS weapons but as a Clan system, they end up mediocre. Why? Because the existing systems were and are that good.

I've said it before...FASA made a mistake in trying to give the Clans new weapons. There should have been mention of such, but nothing added to the system. There was other stuff the Clans could have received.

There is little wrong with the weapons in theory, but in practise they are overbalanced with too many negatives outweighing too few positives. The heavy laser would be a great IS weapon as it offers a 100% damage increase. As a Clan system, it is only 50% increase and that isn't enough to offset its flaws. Great flavour, but it really needs a niche of its own...increased damage or reduced heat or a mix of both. The Streak system is overly heavy...what if it had increased range as the Streak SRMs, a TN modifier akin to A5 or if it only massed 50% more instead of 100%

But that is neither here nor there.

The HL and SLRM series are good for flavour and gaming the BV system. Little else
« Last Edit: 10 September 2020, 22:46:21 by Talen5000 »
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #49 on: 10 September 2020, 16:22:22 »
 Heavy Lasers would have been more interesting as an introductory Clan weapon system (In place of the classic ER/Pulse combo). Still, the +1 to hit is not really all that much a disadvantage against the IS, as it merely equals out the gunnery difference.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #50 on: 11 September 2020, 11:39:42 »
I'm mildly surprised that I've never seen this particular debate crop up.  I've been around the forums for a few years and SLRMs have been around since at least Max Tech 1997.  It might be that I don't hang out in the fan build forums much and it's only the last decade or so that we've been seeing SLRMs in cannon designs.  But we've been seeing SSRMs since TRO 2750, in 1989.  A SSRM is twice the weight of the stock SRM. Just like SLRM v LRM.

Is it a scaling thing?  Going from 1.5 tons for an SRM 6 to 3 tons for Streak 6 just isn't as big a deal?

Or did I just kick a hornets nest?
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #51 on: 11 September 2020, 12:05:59 »
No, the same arguments sort of apply . . . and I say sort of b/c Talen's point about Clan Streaks having longer range than Clan SRMs yet SLRMs did not get such a boost to explain the weight change.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #52 on: 11 September 2020, 12:13:32 »
No, the same arguments sort of apply . . . and I say sort of b/c Talen's point about Clan Streaks having longer range than Clan SRMs yet SLRMs did not get such a boost to explain the weight change.

I could live with the weight change - I just think the weight went up too much for what the Streak LRMs offer. Again, the problem lies with the the fact the original weapons were just that good but realising that doesn't solve the issue. The new weapons are typically poor - good at gaming the BV system, but poor in comparison to the rest of the weaponry. They need some niche of their own. I would suggest heat efficiency for Heavy Lasers, but the obvious "fix" for the Streak LRMs would be to reduce their mass rather than mess with the ranges, but that also feels a bit boring. Maybe extending their ranges, lowering their mass BUT also reducing the ammo per ton?  I dunno.

As it is, we have what we have. Ain't much we can do except gripe and moan.
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« Last Edit: 12 September 2020, 02:40:40 by Talen5000 »
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #53 on: 11 September 2020, 15:13:44 »
Clan Streak SRMs have the very tangible difference of being longer range than Clan SRMs.  If the same was true of Streak LRMs (8/16/24) there would be a clear-cut, "here are the circumstances in which these weapons are inarguably superior" type argument to make.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #54 on: 11 September 2020, 15:20:31 »
At most, I'd lengthen the Streak LRMs to 8/16/24 (similar to the SSRM's range buffs).  Maybe a capacity to IDF with similar restrictions to iATMs.  Maybe.

Definitely do not touch their weight.  Their raw Damage-to-weight ratio of the (clan) Streak systems should be lower than their standard counterparts.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #55 on: 11 September 2020, 15:32:33 »
Yeah, which is why I said it was a valid point about the systems.

Now everyone is talking about mechs and vehicles . . . but what about ASF?  DS?
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #56 on: 11 September 2020, 17:45:51 »
Artemis-IV, especially on older (Star League) designs, is a waste of time/space. You're much better served by adding another ton of ammo for specialty munitions. Much like the NARC Missile Beacon, Artemis-IV is something that would be better served being retconned to have the abilities of its more-advanced cousin (re.: iNARC & Artemis-V, respectively).

1 ton for a -1 to-hit and big bonus on the cluster table? Now we're talking.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #57 on: 12 September 2020, 15:09:21 »
FYI.  Its 1.5 tons for the Artemis-V.

I disagree on the Art-IV being a waste, I think the Artemis-IV is fully usable on the LRM-20 rack & a solid option for the LRM15.

I don't happen to use it for the 5/10 racks myself & avoid designs that do for the most part.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #58 on: 12 September 2020, 19:19:22 »
FYI.  Its 1.5 tons for the Artemis-V.
 

It is what it is, but I would have loved Art V to be one ton.  Clan tech Art IV weighs a ton like IS version.  I get that it is better and should weigh more to not invalidate older tech, but at the same time tech marches on.  Personal opinion they should have been 1 ton.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #59 on: 12 September 2020, 19:42:46 »
ART IV increases damage by ~20%, but only in extremely ECM-permissive environments, and also only with only 1 ammo type compatability, and only when used during direct-fire.  A Clan LRM20 launcher effectively weighs 20% more to fit ART IV.  It's not dead weight, but  (as far as the Clans go) I can confidently say there's never been a time where I've thought "wow, I'm really glad I had this Artemis IV system attached and not something else."