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Author Topic: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V  (Read 3714 times)

TigerShark

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #60 on: 12 September 2020, 19:51:42 »
FYI.  Its 1.5 tons for the Artemis-V.

I disagree on the Art-IV being a waste, I think the Artemis-IV is fully usable on the LRM-20 rack & a solid option for the LRM15.

I don't happen to use it for the 5/10 racks myself & avoid designs that do for the most part.
I know. I was suggesting that the abilities of the Artemis-V should be what -IV is. i.e.: Artemis-IV would be retconned to grant the -1.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #61 on: 12 September 2020, 20:57:06 »
ART IV increases damage by ~20%, but only in extremely ECM-permissive environments, and also only with only 1 ammo type compatability, and only when used during direct-fire.  A Clan LRM20 launcher effectively weighs 20% more to fit ART IV.  It's not dead weight, but  (as far as the Clans go) I can confidently say there's never been a time where I've thought "wow, I'm really glad I had this Artemis IV system attached and not something else."
Pretty sure it increases damage by 33% on "average"
IE 7 roll becomes 9.   
So 12 > 16
9 > 12
6 > 8

I know I love having them attached to LRM20's myself.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #62 on: 12 September 2020, 22:23:01 »
Pretty sure it increases damage by 33% on "average"
Incorrect, I've done the math for the LRM-20.  LRM-20 averages 12.6944 repeating w/o ART IV, and 15.3611 repeating w/ ART IV.  The ratio of the two is 15.3611/12.6944=1.2101...

So, the LRM-20 w/ ART IV increases damage by 21%, which is about 20% like I said earlier.  Just looking at the median roll isn't good enough to determine the average, you need to take the sum of the value * probability of said result...

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #63 on: 13 September 2020, 00:23:47 »
Ok, I'll by the %, its still a 21% increase for only a 10% increase (IS) or 20% increase (Clan) for tonnage.   
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #64 on: 13 September 2020, 01:23:07 »
Ok, I'll by the %, its still a 21% increase for only a 10% increase (IS) or 20% increase (Clan) for tonnage.
It's a ~20% increase in damage for a 20% increase in tonnage.  But only if you're direct-firing with the right type of munitions against a target with no ECM presence.  That is why I've never been thrilled with ART IV, even in the best of circumstances.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #65 on: 13 September 2020, 03:14:09 »
Sometimes I wonder what tables other than mine look like because hearing things like "extremely ECM-permissive" is a turn of phrase that seems to imply that you're generally experiencing 50%+ ECM coverage.  Do you really not have enemy units outside of ECM umbrellas at any given time?  None of them are running ECCM?

Seeing 1/4 or 1/5 units with ECM in a normal game is probably a little bit on the high side in games played on my tables.  Artemis IV is effectively worth its weight in gold in those circumstances, because it more than triples the odds of a single LRM-20 forcing a PSR from 3/36 to 10/36, which is a fairly significant affect that is inadequately measured by a simple damage% increase.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #66 on: 13 September 2020, 03:45:03 »
 

It is what it is, but I would have loved Art V to be one ton.  Clan tech Art IV weighs a ton like IS version.  I get that it is better and should weigh more to not invalidate older tech, but at the same time tech marches on.  Personal opinion they should have been 1 ton.

What this highlights is that instead of the heavy laser or ATM, the Clans should have gotten something akin to an improved LRM system...built in Artemis IV. Better control links if you want it impacted by ECM, better internal targeting if you don't.

Then you could introduce the A5 at a 1 ton mass.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #67 on: 13 September 2020, 13:11:08 »
"Clan LRMs should have been better" is not the blistering hot take I was expecting to read today.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #68 on: 13 September 2020, 13:49:34 »
Sometimes I wonder what tables other than mine look like because hearing things like "extremely ECM-permissive" is a turn of phrase that seems to imply that you're generally experiencing 50%+ ECM coverage.  Do you really not have enemy units outside of ECM umbrellas at any given time?  None of them are running ECCM?

Ditto. Maybe it's because the sheer BV expense makes C3 stuff incredibly rare, but I don't think I've ever seen a game where ECM was a major factor. Usually it's more a case of having to remember which one is the single mech on the board with ECM, and the one or two mechs on the board that carry anything affected by such.

Best I can think of is a recent lance-sized game where the objectives had to be found by scanning, one side had a Probe and the other an ECM (both by coincidence, the mechs were chosen for their guns).

All the relevant objective hexes were detected before the ECM got anywhere near the probe...and the probe mech wasn't the one to do any of said detecting.

In retrospect, there might have been one or two Artemis shots that I forgot to jam, but that's about it.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #69 on: 14 September 2020, 10:46:48 »
No Capellans with Stealth Armor?

If you are playing 3050s, yeah . . . its less likely simply b/c ECM was mounted on less stuff.  Playing Jihad?  More ECM was thrown on designs by that point along with other electronics.

ECM is something I will often try to incorporate in our 5k force games simply b/c we have players who like the Blakists and want the C3i (there are ways to get in 5k, especially if you just link 2), then we had a LRM lover, a few folks who will take Clan and use ATM- heck, I usually forget to add the Artemis effect on my ATMs.  We have also done scenario pick up games for scanning as described, but our scenario rules give a distinct advantage for bringing a real scout- IE probes or other specialized electronics.
 Basically, non-sensor equipped designs can scan but they have to stand still & not fire for 1 turn . . . vs BAP that can scan at a run . . . and ECM can block them. 

Our campaign uses the Chaos Campaign book, I run the scout . . . a Stealth Spector, which is the only ECM on the board at times and so I have to place my mech where its going to knock out Blakist C3i nets when we face them.

Really I do not see C3 as much as C3i . . . have not seen Boosted C3 yet.

Now, I never checked the BV calcs but one I remember was a 5k vs 5k- instead of group fights we did some paired off testing for a in store tournament.  I took a Society pair- Ceph spotter that had no armament (A?) & Osteon w/ 4 LPL vs a Blakist trio C3i linked . . . I want to say Guillotine 6WB2, another lighter 4/6 heavy and a 5/8 or slower med.  The WoB player could not keep the Ceph's Nova from cutting the link to 1 of the 3 units in the battle . . . and then had to deal with chewing through the Osteon's armor & internals.
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monbvol

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #70 on: 14 September 2020, 17:07:16 »
I also sometimes wonder if people forget to check if a hostile ECM bubble of an equipped unit gets between the Artemis using firer and a target that is actually outside the actual bubble because this will stop Artemis from working.

As well as C3 and C3i in such situations but personally I find C3 tends to be rather limited in functionality without ECM even largely in play simply because it doesn't apply to indirect fire and I've had too many games where terrain made that consideration prove C3 a mediocre investment.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #71 on: 14 September 2020, 17:51:24 »
No, I play pretty exclusively Dark Age games, and even there players will typically have sub-25% of units with ECM.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #72 on: 14 September 2020, 20:24:55 »
I also sometimes wonder if people forget to check if a hostile ECM bubble of an equipped unit gets between the Artemis using firer and a target that is actually outside the actual bubble because this will stop Artemis from working.

Happens quite a bit . . . the only time the Spector I run really got hammered, I kept asking another player who only showed occasionally if his Berserker had ECM.  It is not a mech I run or face often so I was not sure off the top of my head.  Got told no twice . . . so at the end of the turn, I shut off the Stealth Armor because the next turn I needed to break the C3i net for that Chaos Campaign story.  I jumped into the woods near the big guns SPA mech that was the shooter in the 3 mech net- just enough to cut it out of the net.  The Spector survived but you could see through that side torso even if the engine was still intact.

The next turn the Berserker player goes . . . "Oh . . . I have ECM . . . "

Scotty-  All I can say is it might be a factional thing . . . we play Jihad tech level in the pick ups and the campaign uses the Chaos Campaign book that has you facing Blakists quite a bit and he will put together a 2 or 3 unit C3i net since the BV on that is not bad.  Our LRM loving player who moved would take a Schil a lot of times and have something connected to the Master along with using Artemis IV equipped units.
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massey

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #73 on: 14 September 2020, 21:03:00 »
They are really very different weapons systems.  Streaks allow you to fire basically every turn, almost no matter what.  You generally don't have to worry about ammo supplies, to-hit numbers, or heat.  The LRM-15 is better damage/ton, as long as those other issues don't come up.

I almost always declare fire with Streaks as long as I'm in range.  I don't care how high my heat will go, extra damage to the other guy is worth losing movement points.  Obviously that's not always true (I don't want to risk bad ammo explosions, and sometimes you need to keep movement to get out of there next round), but it usually is.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #74 on: 22 September 2020, 13:43:06 »
The next turn the Berserker player goes . . . "Oh . . . I have ECM . . . "
3055 had more ECM units than one would have expected. The Gunslinger also has that edge.


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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #76 on: 28 September 2020, 02:49:36 »
I always hear that there was a flood of ECM & every other unit gets it etc etc.

I just looked.

I'm not sure this qualifies as a Flood


Total Production in the Clan Invasion & Civil War Eras  (Not counting larger "support" naval/aero units)
Mechs - 1139
Vehicles - 195
Aero - 167
Infantry - 239
Protos - 40

Units w/ ECM:
Mechs - 146   (12.82%)
Vehicle - 30   (15.38%)
Aero - 2   (1.2%)
Infantry - 5   (2.1%)
Protos - 0   (0%)



So roughly 1 ECM for every...
8 mechs
6.5 Vees
83 Fighters
48 Infantry
No Protos w/ ECM


I think what we probably have is players that just gravitate towards those units.

But to have a mixed battalion on the field with a company each of Mechs, Vees, & Infantry & have a total of 3 ECM on average isn't a flood of them IMHO.
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Jellico

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #77 on: 28 September 2020, 06:25:39 »
ECM was relatively rare through to 3075. There was a huge explosion through 3100. In 3145 ECM saturation saw a reduction in all electronic systems except for intentional new toy syndrome.

Another factor is that ECM was very factional but not in a sensible way. EG The Cappies were ECM heavy because they were the Electronics faction despite ECM probably being most useful against the C3 loving Combine.

As a Ghost Bear living next to the DC, ComStar,  and assaulting WoB I had the front line options of a Firemoth or a Hellbringer well into the Jihad. I got some second line options like the Ursus and Zorya, but it took until the Karhu and NTNU to get ECM on the front line.
« Last Edit: 28 September 2020, 08:13:12 by Jellico »

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #78 on: 28 September 2020, 10:22:56 »
ECM was relatively rare through to 3075. There was a huge explosion through 3100. In 3145 ECM saturation saw a reduction in all electronic systems except for intentional new toy syndrome.

Another factor is that ECM was very factional but not in a sensible way. EG The Cappies were ECM heavy because they were the Electronics faction despite ECM probably being most useful against the C3 loving Combine.

As a Ghost Bear living next to the DC, ComStar,  and assaulting WoB I had the front line options of a Firemoth or a Hellbringer well into the Jihad. I got some second line options like the Ursus and Zorya, but it took until the Karhu and NTNU to get ECM on the front line.
ECM was on the front line the entire time. OmniMechs are modular. If they came across C3-using opponents, any MechWarrior can have his tech mount an ECM suite before battle.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #79 on: 28 September 2020, 15:26:47 »
ECM was relatively rare through to 3075. There was a huge explosion through 3100. In 3145 ECM saturation saw a reduction in all electronic systems except for intentional new toy syndrome.

This is very simply not true.  There are 330 designs with ECM prior to 3075 (just Guardian and Watchdog (which gets caught by searching ECM on the MUL), I didn't search for Angel too); between 3075 and 3100 there are 120 more.  Even including clear through to 3150 there are only 183, barely half of what existed before 3075.

BattleTech up to 3075 is actually the single most populous group I can measure, accounting for over 300 of those designs, which is over 60% of all ECM designs through 3150; Almost every single one of those (296) has an intro date between 3050 and 3075.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #80 on: 28 September 2020, 15:29:44 »
How many were stealth armor?

And the other problem question, how common were the designs with ECM?
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #81 on: 28 September 2020, 15:31:53 »
ECM was on the front line the entire time. OmniMechs are modular. If they came across C3-using opponents, any MechWarrior can have his tech mount an ECM suite before battle.

Never assume a group allows custom Omni configs.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #82 on: 28 September 2020, 16:08:10 »
Never assume a group allows custom Omni configs.
In-universe, a MechWarrior is not restricted to pre-fabricated configurations. A group can disallow anything they wish at their table, obviously. Heck, you could say "no Clan pulse," but that doesn't change what's available in the fiction. And FYI, I wouldn't play a game vs C3(i) if my opponent is artificially playing keep-away from ECM by limiting configuration choice. That's a pretty scummy way to give yourself an advantage.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #83 on: 28 September 2020, 16:19:24 »
How many were stealth armor?

And the other problem question, how common were the designs with ECM?
Of the common TROs, that is 3025-3067 (2750 included), the Sha Yu was the only conspicuous example. I guess that there is the forgettable Anubis. Then you had Project Phoenix. and record sheets, but still not too many.
« Last Edit: 28 September 2020, 16:35:44 by Minemech »

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #84 on: 28 September 2020, 16:44:45 »
Of the common TROs, that is 3025-3067 (2750 included), the Sha Yu was the only conspicuous example. Then you had Project Phoenix. and record sheets, but still not too many.

Huh?  Sha Yu and . . .

Stealth-
Marauder
Archer
Crusader
Warhammer
Pillager
Spector
Raven
Phoenix Hawk
Wasp
Stinger
Thunder (x2)
Vindicator
Huron Warrior
Lao Hu (later, I grant)
Emperor
Cataphract
Jinggau (Jihad)
Victor
Snake
Shen Yi
Anubis
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #85 on: 28 September 2020, 16:54:25 »
Huh?  Sha Yu and . . .

Stealth-
Marauder
Archer
Crusader
Warhammer
Pillager
Spector
Raven
Phoenix Hawk
Wasp
Stinger
Thunder (x2)
Vindicator
Huron Warrior
Lao Hu (later, I grant)
Emperor
Cataphract
Jinggau (Jihad)
Victor
Snake
Shen Yi
Anubis
Phoenix did add a good number, but I forgot to even consider the TRO upgrades. Still, not even a quarter of mech with ECM.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #86 on: 28 September 2020, 17:30:44 »
This is very simply not true.  There are 330 designs with ECM prior to 3075 (just Guardian and Watchdog (which gets caught by searching ECM on the MUL), I didn't search for Angel too); between 3075 and 3100 there are 120 more.  Even including clear through to 3150 there are only 183, barely half of what existed before 3075.

BattleTech up to 3075 is actually the single most populous group I can measure, accounting for over 300 of those designs, which is over 60% of all ECM designs through 3150; Almost every single one of those (296) has an intro date between 3050 and 3075.
While I stand by 3075 as a generic year. It was hard to find ECM up to the end of the great FASA Freeze at the end of the Fed Com Civil War. Starting with TRO3067, to PP, it became more common as designers finally used electronics of all sorts (see C3 slaves. God I got sick of C3 Chargers.) with the flood gates opened in TRO3075.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #87 on: 28 September 2020, 17:36:08 »
I just grabbed the Capellan ones I remembered with Stealth armor and the one little sneaker of the Spector.  Pretty sure that is not ALL the Capellan Stealth armor mechs, I might be able to check later with MM to complete it . . . but the other thing is the Capellan Stealth mechs were main line while some of the other ECM mechs are rare.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #88 on: 28 September 2020, 17:50:28 »
While I stand by 3075 as a generic year. It was hard to find ECM up to the end of the great FASA Freeze at the end of the Fed Com Civil War. Starting with TRO3067, to PP, it became more common as designers finally used electronics of all sorts (see C3 slaves. God I got sick of C3 Chargers.) with the flood gates opened in TRO3075.
This is the old Diachrony vs Synchrony problem. Through a diachronic perspective, the backloaded mechs would not be immediately considered, because no one had access to them when they played that era. Synchronically, the mechs are there when you want to play that era. As a FWL player, I had adequate access to ECM capabilities before the backfilling.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #89 on: 28 September 2020, 18:14:51 »
Out of interest what was the FWL using ECM for? In my part of the Sphere it was all about C3 networks.  As a relative threat Artemis and NARC didn't register. You just wore the damage.