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Author Topic: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V  (Read 3011 times)

Minemech

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #90 on: 28 September 2020, 18:26:18 »
Out of interest what was the FWL using ECM for? In my part of the Sphere it was all about C3 networks.  As a relative threat Artemis and NARC didn't register. You just wore the damage.
If I had to guess, it was probably more a preventative measure than a targeted one. When it was ruled that it worked against stealth armor, that was a game changer.

 Do keep in mind that there was always the chance that C3 might proliferate to the AFFC, and later the LCAF. Heck, a warship was gifted to the FedCom that contained secret weapons technology (A Screen Launcher).
« Last Edit: 28 September 2020, 18:28:50 by Minemech »

Scotty

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #91 on: 29 September 2020, 03:20:25 »
Out of interest what was the FWL using ECM for? In my part of the Sphere it was all about C3 networks.  As a relative threat Artemis and NARC didn't register. You just wore the damage.

C3 networks are available anywhere in the Inner Sphere on common IS Omni configs, all of which are on the IS General availability list.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #92 on: 29 September 2020, 11:47:42 »
And the FWL needed ECM to use ECCM mode for their NARC & Artemis loads . . . as well as counteracting Cappie scouts like Ravens & Men Shen.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #93 on: 29 September 2020, 12:34:39 »
10-15% isn't a small number. it exceeds a number of weapon systems by a substantial margin. you start finding it at all factions, weight classes and speed profiles - which makes it much easier to plug into formations of all types, thus making it more deployable.

massey

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #94 on: 29 September 2020, 15:53:07 »
You don't necessarily need an ECM suite in every lance, or even one in every company.  You simply need enough of them to make your enemy's C3/Artemis/whatever systems uneconomical.  They spend a lot of money and invest a lot of time and training, and then the damn things don't always work right.  One little mech with an ECM suite and everything goes haywire.

Realistically in the early stages, you'd want one or two in each battalion, just to give yourself some protection in case you ran into a well-equipped enemy.  Then your enemies have to decide if it's worth investing in advanced systems or not.  Once they make the decision to go all in, then you need to add a few more systems, but not until then.


Minemech

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #96 on: 29 September 2020, 16:22:21 »
 Having ECM in a trooper, like the Anvil, can prove handy at times.

Colt Ward

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #97 on: 29 September 2020, 16:40:54 »
You don't necessarily need an ECM suite in every lance, or even one in every company.  You simply need enough of them to make your enemy's C3/Artemis/whatever systems uneconomical.  They spend a lot of money and invest a lot of time and training, and then the damn things don't always work right.  One little mech with an ECM suite and everything goes haywire.

Realistically in the early stages, you'd want one or two in each battalion, just to give yourself some protection in case you ran into a well-equipped enemy.  Then your enemies have to decide if it's worth investing in advanced systems or not.  Once they make the decision to go all in, then you need to add a few more systems, but not until then.

Which is why I wish they had ECCM in the standard rules- nearly everything else in the game has balance and is not a 'I Win' Button . . . but if someone pays the BV for C3, Artemis IV or NARC, then instead of it being rock/paper/scissors like most everything else in BT, ECM gives the carrying play a easy advantage.  ECCM is the counter to ECM which is the counter to . . .
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Crimson Dawn

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #98 on: 29 September 2020, 16:56:33 »
I kind of dislike that it is ECM that is needed to defeat ECM.  I kind of wish it somehow used the active probe instead to give it a real use in more situations. 

Scotty

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #99 on: 29 September 2020, 19:40:36 »
The Active Probe optional rule that reduces the penalty to-hit from woods if the target is within Probe range instantly makes Probes worth it on basically anything that wants to get within 3 hexes if its target for any reason.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #100 on: 29 September 2020, 21:52:51 »
This is very simply not true.  There are 330 designs with ECM prior to 3075 (just Guardian and Watchdog (which gets caught by searching ECM on the MUL), I didn't search for Angel too); between 3075 and 3100 there are 120 more.  Even including clear through to 3150 there are only 183, barely half of what existed before 3075.

BattleTech up to 3075 is actually the single most populous group I can measure, accounting for over 300 of those designs, which is over 60% of all ECM designs through 3150; Almost every single one of those (296) has an intro date between 3050 and 3075.

How are you searching the MUL,  I searched it, I got no where near those #s.  See my #'s above, that is directly from MUL.
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Crimson Dawn

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #101 on: 29 September 2020, 22:34:29 »
The Active Probe optional rule that reduces the penalty to-hit from woods if the target is within Probe range instantly makes Probes worth it on basically anything that wants to get within 3 hexes if its target for any reason.

Sadly that is a rule that my local group refuses to use for some odd reason but they do allow counter ECM so the poor active probe is more dead weight that an anything.  :'(

Scotty

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #102 on: 29 September 2020, 22:55:55 »
How are you searching the MUL,  I searched it, I got no where near those #s.  See my #'s above, that is directly from MUL.

Go to Units, in the Alpha Strike section type "ECM", narrow by year if you want.  Guardian ECM, Clan ECM, and Watchdog all convert to the ECM Special ability in Alpha Strike, so searching for it narrows to things that only have those.  "AECM" instead will get you everything with an Angel ECM.
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monbvol

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #103 on: 29 September 2020, 23:27:13 »
The Active Probe optional rule that reduces the penalty to-hit from woods if the target is within Probe range instantly makes Probes worth it on basically anything that wants to get within 3 hexes if its target for any reason.

Unfortunately that is kind of the problem of Active Probes, almost all the rules/situations that make it useful are technically optional rules/not found in Total Warfare.

Scotty

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #104 on: 30 September 2020, 00:51:10 »
We're in a thread about Streak LRMs versus Artemis V, we crossed the optional rule threshold before the topic was even posted.
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monbvol

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #105 on: 30 September 2020, 01:51:39 »
To an extent fair enough.

Both rules are straight forward enough to have been included in the Battlemech Manual.

Active Probes just seem more like they should be the counters to ECM is all.

Hellraiser

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #106 on: 30 September 2020, 18:51:32 »
Go to Units, in the Alpha Strike section type "ECM", narrow by year if you want. 

That is what I did. 

As I said above.  I'm showing 183 new ECM that entered production in the era of 3049-3067
146 Mechs, 30 vehicles, 2 ASF, & 5 Infantry

Admittedly prior to 3049 there were only 50 that had been in production.
31 Mechs, 14 Vees, 4 ASF, 1 Infantry

Meanwhile the Jihad alone added 364 new ECM.
237 Mechs, 88 Vee, 29 ASF,  6 Infantry, 1 Proto, & 3 Sup Vee.

Post Jihad eras only add another 91 Mechs, 42 Vees, 11 ASF, 13 Infantry & 2 Sup Vee

The flood, to me, appears to be the years of the Jihad through the formation of the Republic from 3068-3085.

At least its the heaviest concentration at roughly double the Clan Invasion/Civil War eras in a year less time span.


And Agreed Monbvol,  I wish AP was able to cut through ECM, that seems to me to be a logical use for it.
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Scotty

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #107 on: 30 September 2020, 19:05:59 »
I'm showing 183 new ECM that entered production in the era of 3049-3067

I have identified the miscommunication: I said absolutely nothing about 3067, I was responding entirely to the 3075 assertion.
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TigerShark

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #108 on: 03 October 2020, 12:36:34 »
Which is why I wish they had ECCM in the standard rules- nearly everything else in the game has balance and is not a 'I Win' Button . . . but if someone pays the BV for C3, Artemis IV or NARC, then instead of it being rock/paper/scissors like most everything else in BT, ECM gives the carrying play a easy advantage.  ECCM is the counter to ECM which is the counter to . . .
Either that or change the BV rules of ECM. If facing a C3 network, it should have a value mirroring that of the network size it's facing. That's a rule akin to something pre-existing (TAG and the presence of homing missiles affects its BV in the same manner), so it shouldn't be rocket science to implement.
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Minemech

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #109 on: 03 October 2020, 14:09:02 »
 
Either that or change the BV rules of ECM. If facing a C3 network, it should have a value mirroring that of the network size it's facing. That's a rule akin to something pre-existing (TAG and the presence of homing missiles affects its BV in the same manner), so it shouldn't be rocket science to implement.
That would make ECM unplayable in tournament games. ECM can be overrated, even against enemies that it is helpful against.

TigerShark

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #110 on: 03 October 2020, 14:55:10 »
  That would make ECM unplayable in tournament games. ECM can be overrated, even against enemies that it is helpful against.
"Unplayable?" Explain.
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Minemech

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #111 on: 03 October 2020, 15:14:25 »
"Unplayable?" Explain.
You would have to balance your BV for units that may never arrive.

TigerShark

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #112 on: 03 October 2020, 15:23:28 »
You would have to balance your BV for units that may never arrive.
"I have 5 units in a network. You'll need to add X BV to each ECM unit." Not hard. That's how TAG BV works right now.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #113 on: 03 October 2020, 15:38:59 »
"I have 5 units in a network. You'll need to add X BV to each ECM unit." Not hard. That's how TAG BV works right now.
Changing the value of your force depending on what the ENEMY has is really unpractical. Having to modify pilot skills before every fight to make BV match up...? :P

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #114 on: 03 October 2020, 18:15:38 »
Changing the value of your force depending on what the ENEMY has is really unpractical. Having to modify pilot skills before every fight to make BV match up...? :P
People did it for years with Force Size Modifier. It was canon for... 8 years? Anyhow, the point is that ECM does have an effect on the value of an opponent's weapon systems. Less so with Artemis IV and V, but a tremendous amount with C3(i). The value of this ECM system changes depending on what you're facing.

Why have a BV value for ECM at all if no opponent has Artemis or C3? Shouldn't the unit get a discount if it has no effect in the game? That's a bit like having BV for Cargo Space on a warship. Conversely, why charge only 61 BV for an ECM unit which can negate 5% of an opponent's BV? A 15,000 BV network suddenly has 750 BV missing from its force for a cost of 61? That's horribly unbalanced.
« Last Edit: 03 October 2020, 18:24:07 by TigerShark »
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Minemech

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #115 on: 03 October 2020, 18:43:23 »
 I have no problem with ECM being a sunk cost. Free Worlds League players have been using mechs like the Anvil and Sirocco for years against players who were relatively unaffected by it.

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #116 on: 03 October 2020, 19:13:58 »
People did it for years with Force Size Modifier. It was canon for... 8 years?

There are multiple reasons why the FSM was universally hated, and(aside from occasionally getting mentioned by you or Cannonshop) the player base tries to pretend it never existed, having the BV of a force suddenly change just by arriving at the game store was one of them.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #117 on: 09 October 2020, 00:35:58 »
I know its not going to ever happen but I always thought he best way to deal w/ ECM would be to have it be a "Reverse-TC",  make it give a unit a -1 to be hit so its got a value that we can associate with it in BV, & then leave all the "special weapons" alone.

ECM would have been more expensive, and possibly more popular, and nothing would mess with the C3/Art/Narc folks.

Or an alternative would be to have it apply a -1 to any enemy fire originating inside its bubble.
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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #118 on: 09 October 2020, 09:11:28 »
That's almost exactly what the current Ghost Targets rule is.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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Hellraiser

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Re: Streak LRM10 vs LRM15 + Artemis V
« Reply #119 on: 21 October 2020, 11:18:38 »
Is it?  Lol, I think I lightly scanned Ghost Targets one time ages ago & then promptly forgot about it since my GM doesn't use that rule.

In that case, yeah, it would be a solid alternative & give up the actual disruption qualities.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo