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Author Topic: The Locust has Weak Legs  (Read 1177 times)

Goose

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The Locust has Weak Legs
« on: 31 March 2021, 12:28:21 »
I'm under the impression it only matters to jump 'Mechs?

Maybe it's Exposed Actuators? :-\
Goose
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Luciora

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #1 on: 31 March 2021, 12:32:07 »
The Locust has near max armor for it's weight class.  What do you mean?   Compared to anything else, 4 tons is nothing sure, but what do you expect?  You want more armor, put hardened on it, but you lose weapons and speed.

Sartris

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #2 on: 31 March 2021, 12:40:41 »
the quirk.

weak legs also means that if it's kicked, it suffers a TAC

Luciora

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #3 on: 31 March 2021, 12:47:12 »
Gotcha.  Be nice if the OP mentioned that.

the quirk.

weak legs also means that if it's kicked, it suffers a TAC

Goose

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #4 on: 31 March 2021, 13:49:06 »
weak legs also means that if it's kicked, it suffers a TAC
This isn't in Da Manual, so you think it'll show up the StratOops replacement? :(
Goose
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Sartris

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #5 on: 31 March 2021, 14:07:30 »
currently SO pg 199. it's in the section that's migrating to the new version of CampOps

Valaska

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #6 on: 09 April 2021, 21:47:16 »
I'm under the impression it only matters to jump 'Mechs?

Maybe it's Exposed Actuators? :-\

I was under the impression that it's legs are really tiny, really, really, really tiny. On the model, in the art... they are tiny. So I think it's just the fact the legs are so small and thin they can be damaged by falls, trips, etc. But who knows... usually they have some sort of lore reason or just a balance reason, it is probably more a reason of balance.

mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #7 on: 10 April 2021, 08:44:37 »
BattleMech Manual (2020) p.89 says that Weak legs means the mech must roll for criticals in both legs if it makes a DFA or if is kicked.

NeonKnight

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #8 on: 10 April 2021, 09:31:50 »
BattleMech Manual (2020) p.89 says that Weak legs means the mech must roll for criticals in both legs if it makes a DFA or if is kicked.

Actually that would be:

Both Legs in event of DFA

or

Leg that was kicked.


You would not roll if (the locust for example) was kicked in the Upper Torso by a mech 1 level higher ;)

AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #9 on: 10 April 2021, 09:43:21 »
Actually that would be:

Both Legs in event of DFA

or

Leg that was kicked.


You would not roll if (the locust for example) was kicked in the Upper Torso by a mech 1 level higher ;)

Has that been mentioned in errata or clarified in some later book?

The way you suggest it makes sense and I agree it's probably how the rule is intended to work. However, even as I was checking the quirk to answer this thread I noticed that the wording in BMM doesn't really specify where the kick needs to hit and it rather strongly implies that crits are rolled for both legs even in the case of a kick.

edit.

There's actually even more ambiguity with this quirk. The exact wording goes "When the 'Mech is kicked or executes a Death From Above attack, roll for a possible critical hit on each leg (even if the armor is not breached) and apply the results."

Why is the "even if the armor is not breached" in parentheses? The parentheses changes the meaning of the sentence from overriding the typical requirement for structure damage to trigger a critical, to suggest that a critical is rolled regardless of structure damage, which could still mean that the normal critical is also rolled if the structure is damaged.

But yeah, by common sense this rule probably means that if a mech with weak legs makes a DFA it makes a critical roll for both legs even if the legs don't suffer structure damage and if it is successfully kicked in a leg it makes a critical roll for the leg in question even if the leg does not suffer structure damage.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2021, 10:11:00 by mvp7 »

NeonKnight

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #10 on: 10 April 2021, 10:41:28 »
Has that been mentioned in errata or clarified in some later book?

The way you suggest it makes sense and I agree it's probably how the rule is intended to work. However, even as I was checking the quirk to answer this thread I noticed that the wording in BMM doesn't really specify where the kick needs to hit and it rather strongly implies that crits are rolled for both legs even in the case of a kick.

edit.

There's actually even more ambiguity with this quirk. The exact wording goes "When the 'Mech is kicked or executes a Death From Above attack, roll for a possible critical hit on each leg (even if the armor is not breached) and apply the results."

Why is the "even if the armor is not breached" in parentheses? The parentheses changes the meaning of the sentence from overriding the typical requirement for structure damage to trigger a critical, to suggest that a critical is rolled regardless of structure damage, which could still mean that the normal critical is also rolled if the structure is damaged.

But yeah, by common sense this rule probably means that if a mech with weak legs makes a DFA it makes a critical roll for both legs even if the legs don't suffer structure damage and if it is successfully kicked in a leg it makes a critical roll for the leg in question even if the leg does not suffer structure damage.

Because if the armor is breached, you would also roll a crit chance. So potentially there could be two critical rolls per affected leg.

So, a Commando (25 tons) kicks a Locust, and does 5 points of Damage (not enough to breach the armor) WEAK LEGS on the Locust means I roll 1 chance for a critical hit against that leg.

If the Commando kicked a Locust with only 3 armor remaining on it's leg, You would then roll for 2 chances for a Critical. One for breaching the armor (doing internal damage) and once for WEAK LEGS
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #11 on: 10 April 2021, 10:49:12 »
Because if the armor is breached, you would also roll a crit chance. So potentially there could be two critical rolls per affected leg.

So, a Commando (25 tons) kicks a Locust, and does 5 points of Damage (not enough to breach the armor) WEAK LEGS on the Locust means I roll 1 chance for a critical hit against that leg.

If the Commando kicked a Locust with only 3 armor remaining on it's leg, You would then roll for 2 chances for a Critical. One for breaching the armor (doing internal damage) and once for WEAK LEGS

Yeah, that's how the rule reads, I'm just not sure if that's how it's really intended, since the same rule also reads that the said locust needs to do critical roll for both legs if it's kicked in an arm which is probably not intended.

NeonKnight

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #12 on: 10 April 2021, 11:00:28 »
Yeah, that's how the rule reads, I'm just not sure if that's how it's really intended, since the same rule also reads that the said locust needs to do critical roll for both legs if it's kicked in an arm which is probably not intended.

You're welcome to ask here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/total-warfare/

Which would probably be the best if you think you are mis-understanding the rule
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mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #13 on: 10 April 2021, 11:06:52 »
You're welcome to ask here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/total-warfare/

Which would probably be the best if you think you are mis-understanding the rule
I don't really feel that strongly about Locust's little legs one way or another. I would be interested in hearing where your interpretation on the kicking rule comes from though, since while it makes sense it's not what the BMM says (which AFAIK is the latest and definitive source on quirks).

NeonKnight

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #14 on: 10 April 2021, 11:32:59 »
I don't really feel that strongly about Locust's little legs one way or another. I would be interested in hearing where your interpretation on the kicking rule comes from though, since while it makes sense it's not what the BMM says (which AFAIK is the latest and definitive source on quirks).

because when I kick your mech, I only roll damage where I hit. Kick your Left leg roll damage against that leg. Do a DFA, rules says both legs take damage.

in other words, I don;t get to roll for potential crits or other effects against locations not hit.
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mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #15 on: 10 April 2021, 11:53:32 »
because when I kick your mech, I only roll damage where I hit. Kick your Left leg roll damage against that leg. Do a DFA, rules says both legs take damage.

in other words, I don;t get to roll for potential crits or other effects against locations not hit.
Sure, but the wording of the rule makes no connection between the special crits and whether a location takes damage or not. It simply states that if mech makes a DFA or is kicked, you roll for critical in each leg in addition to any normal criticals.

Personally I'm content following the Weak Legs quirk rules as written in the BMM if there is no errata or rulings that state otherwise.

NeonKnight

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #16 on: 10 April 2021, 12:26:42 »
Sure, and while you're at it, might as well state that ARMOR PIERCING ammo allows me to make a roll for a critical hit against a mech's head, because the rules don't specifically call out not to. the rules simply say as longas I dealt damage roll a chance for a critical hit (page 106) ;)
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Sartris

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #17 on: 10 April 2021, 12:29:10 »
For something we don’t care about enough to post in the rules forum we sure are talking about it a lot  :P

dgorsman

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #18 on: 10 April 2021, 13:32:54 »
For something we don’t care about enough to post in the rules forum we sure are talking about it a lot  :P

Especially given Quirks are entirely optional.
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mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #19 on: 10 April 2021, 13:34:46 »
Sure, and while you're at it, might as well state that ARMOR PIERCING ammo allows me to make a roll for a critical hit against a mech's head, because the rules don't specifically call out not to. the rules simply say as longas I dealt damage roll a chance for a critical hit (page 106) ;)
Yeah, that rule could use an additional "...has a chance at causing critical damage to that location...". However, the AP ammo rule is an exception/extension to the normal structure damage critical rule (as in, a separate AP crit is not rolled if the structure is also hit) and it is also not the same as through armor critical as that can happen in addition to the AP critical.

The Weak Leg kicking critical on the other hand is not an exception to or an extension of the normal structure damage critical itself (or a TAC) as it is done regardless of if the conditions for normal critical have been fulfilled. Also this is not a case of the rule not specifying where the critical is rolled as it is with the AP ammo. The text clearly states that you "roll for a possible critical hit on each leg".

For something we don’t care about enough to post in the rules forum we sure are talking about it a lot  :P
Yeah ;D, I mean I don't care enough to seeks official confirmation (or a change) to the rule since I don't really see there being any major problem with the rule as it is written.

NeonKnight

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #20 on: 10 April 2021, 13:45:08 »
Yeah ;D, I mean I don't care enough to seeks official confirmation (or a change) to the rule since I don't really see there being any major problem with the rule as it is written.

Except, I'm also a DEMO agent, and this is the official way to play.

I'm not telling you how to play at your house, but if official events were to be run, it would not go the way you are thinking. ;)
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mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #21 on: 10 April 2021, 13:50:39 »
Except, I'm also a DEMO agent, and this is the official way to play.

I'm not telling you how to play at your house, but if official events were to be run, it would not go the way you are thinking. ;)
Well that's the kind of source I have been asking for since my first reply to you...

In that case I hope there will be official errata on the matter in the future then.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2021, 13:56:18 by mvp7 »

mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #22 on: 25 April 2021, 16:55:36 »
The Weak Legs quirk was reworded in the latest BMM 4.1 errata and I ended ups asking for a further clarification of it here:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/total-warfare/kicking-weak-legs-quirk-clarification/

So if a Mech with Weak Legs is kicked in a leg, you roll to determine critical hits on the leg that was kicked (in addition to any determining critical hits rolls that may occur from other reasons).
« Last Edit: 25 April 2021, 17:01:04 by mvp7 »

Daryk

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #23 on: 25 April 2021, 17:04:46 »
I've also asked TPTB via PM... one modification has already been made to the official answer.  We'll see how this goes...

Imposing a critical hit on every leg in the case of a kick to ONE doesn't make much sense to me, quirk or no.

mvp7

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #24 on: 25 April 2021, 17:12:07 »
I've also asked TPTB via PM... one modification has already been made to the official answer.  We'll see how this goes...

Imposing a critical hit on every leg in the case of a kick to ONE doesn't make much sense to me, quirk or no.
Xotl already made a quick decision to further errata the current errata. This is the latest wording of the rule:

Quote
If the ’Mech executes a Death From Above attack, roll on the Determining Critical Hits table for each of its legs. If it is kicked in a leg, roll on the table for the leg that was kicked. In both cases, the critical check occurs even if the leg armor was not breached.

Daryk

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Re: The Locust has Weak Legs
« Reply #25 on: 25 April 2021, 17:13:42 »
Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about...

 

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