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Author Topic: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?  (Read 1581 times)

grimlock1

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #30 on: 12 February 2020, 13:28:55 »
You do have a slightly higher risk of pilot damage from falls with bVDNI as it doesn’t reduce your pilot skill
Only in normal cockpits though.  And Celestials all have Small Cockpit anyway.

I have a question in to the Rules section to find out if a Torso Cockpit is considered a Small Cockpit for bVDNI or is it just a small cockpit.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #31 on: 12 February 2020, 14:49:23 »
It'd be a little annoying if Torso Mounted Cockpits are unaffected, considering TMCs have a penalty for the same reason as small cockpits.
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Empyrus

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #32 on: 12 February 2020, 15:24:08 »
Reading the VDNI rules from IO, VDNI modification is installed to a cockpit, with no limits specified. Presumably this means it is compatible with standard, small, and torso-mounted cockpits.
Standard VDNI cybernetic seems to be compatible with torso-mounted cockpits, since the rules don't actually say anything about cockpit types. The VDNI piloting bonus and TMcockpit piloting penalty simply cancel out.
bVDNI cybernetic specifies that small cockpit penalty does not apply even though the system doesn't otherwise give a piloting bonus. Unclear if lack of torso-cockpit mention here is an oversight or if the system imposes piloting penalty for other reasons. Should be noted that though TMcockpits are cramped like small ones, they're also fully reliant on sensor systems for piloting a 'Mech, perhaps this is the reason bVDNI is no help here.
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grimlock1

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #33 on: 12 February 2020, 16:17:54 »
Reading the VDNI rules from IO, VDNI modification is installed to a cockpit, with no limits specified. Presumably this means it is compatible with standard, small, and torso-mounted cockpits.
Standard VDNI cybernetic seems to be compatible with torso-mounted cockpits, since the rules don't actually say anything about cockpit types. The VDNI piloting bonus and TMcockpit piloting penalty simply cancel out.
bVDNI cybernetic specifies that small cockpit penalty does not apply even though the system doesn't otherwise give a piloting bonus. Unclear if lack of torso-cockpit mention here is an oversight or if the system imposes piloting penalty for other reasons. Should be noted that though TMcockpits are cramped like small ones, they're also fully reliant on sensor systems for piloting a 'Mech, perhaps this is the reason bVDNI is no help here.
But isn't part of the point of DNI of any stripe that it many of the things a normal pilot would glean from looking out the window are piped directly into the pilot's brain? 
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
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Empyrus

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #34 on: 12 February 2020, 16:31:22 »
But isn't part of the point of DNI of any stripe that it many of the things a normal pilot would glean from looking out the window are piped directly into the pilot's brain?
Not necessarily. The system descriptions don't imply this actually happens, only that DNI systems allow fluid control over vehicles.
As far as i can figure and recall things, normal neurohelmet merely transmits balance, whereas DNI systems add kinesthetic sense (that is, ability to tell where and how your body is positioned, in this case body being a 'Mech) and replace part of controls with thought. Machina Domini extends this concept even more.

The Clan EI system might actually include visual information, this would fit the name, the fact standard ProtoMechs don't really allow the pilot to even look at screens, and that it adds ability to make aimed shots and other sensor information.

Then again, IS ProtoMech controls are based on standard VDNI, so it might allow visual information. Then again, given that system's requirements, it is possible the pilot uses some kind of conventional VR display (with no relation to the VRPP system) with VDNI.

That said, i do think torso cockpit differences don't seem large enough to make it distinct from small cockpit for bVDNI rules. Not to mention art depicting torso-mounted cockpits nearly always with what appear to be windows or viewports...
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dgorsman

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #35 on: 12 February 2020, 16:48:56 »
Until there is an official ruling, I think a strict reading of the rules is in order i.e. when it says the buffered version ignores the penalty for small cockpits it means that literally and only that.
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grimlock1

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #36 on: 13 February 2020, 10:22:07 »
Until there is an official ruling, I think a strict reading of the rules is in order i.e. when it says the buffered version ignores the penalty for small cockpits it means that literally and only that.
I agree that we need to wait for a ruling.  I believe that bVDNI should ignore the Torso Cockpit penalty, but until I see something explicit, I agree with your interpretation of RAW.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Col Toda

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #37 on: 13 February 2020, 12:24:21 »
From what I understand  BVDNI also halves range and terrain  penalties  . This is why it is so expensive  . The balanced BV solution  of drowning  the MD unit with numbers kind of work when they are not chucking WMDs . The MD unit tends to cost 5-6× a standard unit so is the MD units blasts 2 or 3 times it's  numbers it still loses.

grimlock1

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #38 on: 13 February 2020, 13:52:02 »
From what I understand  BVDNI also halves range and terrain  penalties  . This is why it is so expensive  . The balanced BV solution  of drowning  the MD unit with numbers kind of work when they are not chucking WMDs . The MD unit tends to cost 5-6× a standard unit so is the MD units blasts 2 or 3 times it's  numbers it still loses.
On the table, buffered is -1 to gun, ignore small cockpit penalty, and checks for feedback damage are less frequent.  On the BV side, buffered is cheaper because the bv skill modifier is only to gunnery. 
Are you thinking of EI?  That ignores darkness, and reduces the penalties for intervening smoke, woods and jungle hexes.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Tangoforone

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #39 on: 29 February 2020, 04:28:24 »
So I ran through the game a couple weeks ago and here are my findings:

1:  This thing is stupid hard to kill.  Some of it due to unlucky hits, some due to not being targeted, some due to the fact that it basically maxes out armor and can shoot enemies if all of its arms and torsos are gone, and some due to the fact that the pilot is nigh invincible with pain shunts and dermal armor implants. 
2:  It is extremely heat efficient, and so should be firing its weapons almost every turn.
3:  It is most effective when the C3i is spread out, but still in range.  The first couple rounds the C3i mechs were grouped together and thus had similar targets; though not necessarily bad to have similar targets, it would be better to have more options for targets.  What we should have done was spread out more so that we had more availability in shooting units that were easier to hit (lower movement mods, less terrain in the way, etc. since range is ignored barring the closest unit in the network).

In the end I liked it, but probably didn't use it to its full potential as I held it out of the fight too long.  It's a really good mech if you have to 'run' the game and answer questions or judge rulings from players, but still want to be a part of the game since it literally consists of waddling a whole 3 to 5 hexes then shooting two weapons and potentially rolling a d6 for extra heat dealt from the Plasma Cannon/Rifle/whatever the f--- it is (I get those two confused and don't have the record sheet on me).  Did get a chance to stab a mech in the body with its retractable blade, so that was pretty neat.

grimlock1

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #40 on: 02 March 2020, 14:44:01 »
Did get a chance to stab a mech in the body with its retractable blade, so that was pretty neat.
Did you get the extra crit? >:D
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Tangoforone

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #41 on: 04 March 2020, 00:58:04 »
Did you get the extra crit? >:D

What extra crit? I had heard rumors about this floating around on the forums, but when I reviewed Total Warfare rules it appears that the retractable blade gets no such thing  :-[

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #42 on: 04 March 2020, 01:02:22 »
What extra crit? I had heard rumors about this floating around on the forums, but when I reviewed Total Warfare rules it appears that the retractable blade gets no such thing  :-[

It's on TO. If you make a punch attack(yes, punch, NOT blade attack) with an arm with retractable blade and hits, you may pop the blade and cause a critical on the struck part, although the blade is broken on 10+ if you did.

It is funny that the only usable melee weapons are not the standalone weapons, but something enhances punches and kicks.
« Last Edit: 04 March 2020, 01:09:23 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Weirdo

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #43 on: 04 March 2020, 01:29:09 »
All published weapons are by definition usable. If they weren't, they wouldn't be in a rulebook.
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Greatclub

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #44 on: 04 March 2020, 01:40:19 »
It is funny that the only usable melee weapons are not the standalone weapons, but something enhances punches and kicks.

There are hatchet + TSM combos I consider quite usable. I'll trade a -1 to hit so I can connect with something other than a leg (Legs are heavily armoured, are more likely to be intact when reaching melee range due to the location table, and you don't trip like if you miss your kick)

Don't get me wrong, I like retractables. But giving my opponent a TacOps rule so I can get that one is rarely worth the trade.

All published weapons are by definition usable. If they weren't, they wouldn't be in a rulebook.

I think he is using the term to mean 'worth the tonnage'

Weirdo

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #45 on: 04 March 2020, 01:52:36 »
I think he is using the term to mean 'worth the tonnage'

That's not at all what the word 'usable' means. 'Efficient' is a perfectly usable word, no need to replace it with one with a completely different meaning.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #46 on: 04 March 2020, 02:32:03 »
There are hatchet + TSM combos I consider quite usable. I'll trade a -1 to hit so I can connect with something other than a leg (Legs are heavily armoured, are more likely to be intact when reaching melee range due to the location table, and you don't trip like if you miss your kick)

Don't get me wrong, I like retractables. But giving my opponent a TacOps rule so I can get that one is rarely worth the trade.

I'd rather enjoy TSM'd kicks and easily dismantle the enemy leg, or insta-kill the enemy mech by a 1/6 chance of TSM'd punches. The current melee weapons are too weak to be functional(or basic punch and kick are too effective). Only if they costs no tons nor slots, they may have a place I think.

Anyway, that's not the topic. By the way, does Archangels have a hand? Are they actually make a punch attack?

Greatclub

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #47 on: 04 March 2020, 03:28:33 »
Yes, the invictus has a hand. Even if it didn't, you can still punch with a malus. Using the blade in blade mode, *Not affected by an absent or damaged hand actuator

The retractable is six tons on the archangel. It either gives you good to-hit on a single attack with meh damage; or passable odds to crit on meh to-hits & damage, plus a chance of breaking. It's versatile but hardly a wonder-weapon. I'll go so far as to say archangel, deva and grigori invictus had better things they could have spent those tons on.

Even a TSM kick on a weight-peer is NOT going to get through undamaged max armor. Hitting with a TSM hatchet on the side torso or arm of said peer will strip and go internal every time, and those locations are far more likely to have taken previous damage. TSM + hatchet is paying tonnage to roll on a table that will give a chance for a one-hit crippling, as opposed to having to batter through the second strongest armour (on a well laid out mech) with kicks.

If I had to put my commander in a celestial the Archangel invictus is among the better choices. I'd rather in something more mobile and (If playing BV) cheaper, but YMMV

Col Toda

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #48 on: 04 March 2020, 07:45:19 »
Say you have this monster with 5 other MD units . The opposition can have 1 C3 company + of mixed  heavy and Assaults with the 3 Naganatas Assaults  exchanging the 3 Artemis IV for Command Consoles  . 1 to use 2 redundant  . So potentially  3 Command mechs should one die then next one takes over . The BV for Command  Console  is only applied  once because  it is present as far as I know it is a flat BV increase because it is present  redundant ones do not increase it as you can only benefit  from one at a time . Put in to see if this take is correct  but no answer  so far . Still think in a balanced BV situation  the MD unit is defeated in weight of numbers  or a balance of quality and  numbers .

Weirdo

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #49 on: 04 March 2020, 10:10:29 »
"Celestials are bad because the other guy brought customs."

All you've really said is that the Celestials are canon mechs.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Tangoforone

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Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #50 on: 05 March 2020, 11:33:29 »
Another thing to take for note: when I played this the capabilities of the Guardian ECM alongside the implants were not excessively used.  The purpose seems to be to shut down ECMs that are trying to shut this guy off from the C3i network; I suppose the reasoning to enable this would be to allow for the rest of the Level II to be able to return fire with the low range mods granted by the Archangels C3i. 

What might be worthwhile though is a secondary purpose of defending WoB LRM carriers that mount the C3i.  Now you have two C3i networks within the counter ECM bubble.  Add a big tank or something that can dish out a bit more damage to defend the LRM carriers (not that the Archangel can't, but it only has a 25 damage output so not the scariest of 100 ton mechs), and now you have a fire support group that can't be cutoff from the network.

 

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