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Author Topic: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?  (Read 4684 times)

truetanker

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Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« on: 12 May 2020, 20:26:57 »
Like the question states, would they if they had them?

I'm talking Dig Lord mods and the Matar mech?

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dgorsman

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #1 on: 12 May 2020, 20:32:34 »
I don't think so.  Very resource intensive for what they do, without much clear benefit against the warrior caste.  And vulnerable to Elementals.
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Wrangler

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #2 on: 12 May 2020, 20:37:20 »
I think it possible. They were mad scientists. Having a Godzilla size BattleMech spewing fusion fire.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #3 on: 12 May 2020, 21:54:23 »
Like the question states, would they if they had them?

I'm talking Dig Lord mods and the Matar mech?

TT

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1.  Clanners will get to do everything you can do  (rotary autocannon, etc.) even when it violates their tactical doctrine (C3, Artillery) lighter, better or longer ranged (Pick 2)...even when (Especially when) they have no reason to do so.

so yes.
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Fat Guy

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #4 on: 13 May 2020, 21:39:19 »
The Society would have used everything and anything they could get their hands on.

So another yes.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #5 on: 13 May 2020, 21:43:05 »
could they have done it? probably. they certainly could have developed it.
did they? probably not. remember most of their weapons tech was derived from stuff they'd done "for the warriors". ATM's, CEWS, Heavy lasers, etc. or were applications of existing tech that they had the specs for but warriors weren't interested in. Null sig Chameleon light polarization shield, etc. even the weaponized HPG's. they took these techs and applied them to their own designs produced in small shop production set ups so the warriors would not notice.
it would have been hard for them to develop the technology behind superheavy mechs without it being noticed by the warriors. so i doubt that they spent much time on the idea. even if they had, such large units were not well suited to the kind of secretive operations they used.

they appeared to focus more on protomech development, with their ultra heavy proto's offering capabiltieis close to mechs while being much easier to produce and hide.

honestly given the events of the novel Freebirth, i am surprised we didn't see Society LAM's, even if just a handful of them. perhaps that data was used for the creation of the Glider protomechs.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2020, 21:44:53 by glitterboy2098 »

Greatclub

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #6 on: 13 May 2020, 22:55:05 »
Depends which faction of the society. The bunch that hung out with the assault-loving coyotes? Maybe.

The guys running around in the bush playing hounds and hares with the warriors? Waste of metal from their perspective


Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #7 on: 13 May 2020, 23:30:36 »

Would the Society have used superheavy mechs if they had them?  Sure.  Superheavies could pack more firepower into a three-unit Nova CEWS network.  They could take more damage than other Clan mechs and thus extend the Society’s physical resources and limited pool of qualified mechwarriors.  And in the early going, superheavies would present a severe challenge to the Clan preference for one-on-one combat.  (A properly designed, Clantech, 3/5 superheavy would also have been more mobile than the Osteon in built-up terrain, carried more firepower, and potentially lasted longer.)

The more important question is whether the Society could have and would have built superheavies?  I think the jury is out on that one.

If you read the fluff carefully, the Society spent little of its relatively limited resources on specialized, high-tech mechs like the Osteon and Cephalus.  The bulk of the Society’s mech resources went into a variety of smaller protomechs and the easier-to-produce Septicemia.  The bulk of the Society’s new mech production averaged well under 50 tons.

Given that the Society’s main (only?) omnimech factory on Strana Mechty was a forgotten and refurbished old Clan factory, I also question whether the Society even had a facility with the tolerances and clearances (crane weights, door sizes, etc.) to handle mechs significantly larger than assault-class (80-100 tons).  They certainly would have had a hard time hiding the construction of such a new factory.

There’s also the question of whether and how the Society would have even known about the WoB’s superheavies on Terra, nevertheless have gotten hold of their superheavy chassis and myomer technology.  I doubt the dates line up for tech transfer (inadvertent or otherwise) from the WoB to the Society, and two completely independent developments in the same Jihad/WoR timeframe seems unlikely.

For all those reasons, I’m very skeptical the Society would have chosen to build, or even been capable of building (or even been aware of the possibility of building), superheavies. 

But I’ll also admit that some clever fluff could fix this.  Something like, “Society Cell ABC redirected DropShuttle Factory XYZ towards superheavy mech production after staging a false flag Bandit Caste raid that supposedly interrupted dropshuttle supply and manufacture for several years, but in fact did no actual damage whatsoever.” 

You’d also need fluff on how the Society got WoB superheavy chassis and myomer technology, or at least the inspiration for such.  (That’s tougher.)

Fluff its origins reasonably like that, design a bigger, badder, better Osteon, and then sure, I’d buy into an alt-history Society using superheavies.

« Last Edit: 14 May 2020, 13:42:21 by Natasha Kerensky »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #8 on: 14 May 2020, 00:56:56 »
honestly given the events of the novel Freebirth, i am surprised we didn't see Society LAM's, even if just a handful of them. perhaps that data was used for the creation of the Glider protomechs.

CLAMs required a two-seat cockpit arrangement and the Society was noted to be short on pilots, so that probably was enough to convince them to focus on other projects.  Like, as you said, the Glider protomechs.
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RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #9 on: 14 May 2020, 05:55:08 »
I think it's possible that the Society could have experimented with Superheavies. Their size would allow them to carry a lot of weaponry and armor. The Tripods would also give an automatic command and control by having a commander onboard. Their having separate pilot and gunner would also allow a wider pool of candidates to pilot/crew their mechs.

I don't think they would have resorted to stealing WoB technology either. I'm sure they'd of heard of the Three Legged Digging Machine. So they'd know Superheavies are possible. I'm also sure that they'd have the plans for the Matar so they could have created their own Superheavies.

I don't think there would have been many of them though as they use up so much materials in their construction. But I can imagine a few of them being like I can imagine a few Clan LAMs too. I think both would have very small numbers though and would probably only be used by a few Society cells.


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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #10 on: 14 May 2020, 07:50:13 »
If the Superheavy BattleMech / OmniMech is attempted, the Society scientist have to figure out if they want to use their ProtoMech pilots try pilot the things since you need the VR related stuff to make it work as a single mech mode (Transzor Z/Magaziner Z) or do they have punish their underling warriors work as a TEAM a do a 3-man arrangement.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #11 on: 14 May 2020, 11:44:45 »
CLAMs required a two-seat cockpit arrangement and the Society was noted to be short on pilots, so that probably was enough to convince them to focus on other projects.  Like, as you said, the Glider protomechs.
the two seat LAMs were a compromise used to accommodate the warrior caste's hidebound tradition of separating mech and aero pilot training. as specifically stated in the novel. (it was also the reason given for why the project failed, that the two pilot set up caused issues with the individualistic warriors being unable to work together to use the LAM properly)
a Society LAM project would be using 'off the books' sibkos that could be trained specifically with both skillsets so as to use a LAM with one pilot. (we know that the clans retain the manual for LAM training as the Goliath Scorpions trained the Wolf's Dragoons using star league training manuals, and the WD's included a sizeable number of LAMs as they were a notable part of the SLDF's regimental level operations.)


Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #12 on: 14 May 2020, 13:51:27 »
(we know that the clans retain the manual for LAM training as the Goliath Scorpions trained the Wolf's Dragoons using star league training manuals

Do we really know that?  Or is this just inference?

It’s certainly a possibility.  But do we know that some Goon warriors were trained for LAMs in Homeworlds (whether using SLDF training tools, Scorp trainers, or something else)?

Is this actually stated somewhere?

Quote
and the WD's included a sizeable number of LAMs as they were a notable part of the SLDF's regimental level operations.)

Did those LAMs come from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAMs salvaged/captured/bought by the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?

Were those LAM pilots Clan warriors from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAM pilot Spheroids who joined the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #13 on: 14 May 2020, 14:27:08 »
Field Manual: Warden Clans (p. 106, "Seeking the Past") talks about the Dragoon's training. the Goliath Scorpions used their elite Heartvenon Cluster as instructors and opfor during the training.

and the presence of so many LAMs in the dragoons was one of the oddities the IS noticed when they first arrived. (alongside the high skill level, new designs, and regiments of pristine equipment)

« Last Edit: 14 May 2020, 14:30:18 by glitterboy2098 »

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #14 on: 14 May 2020, 18:36:19 »
Field Manual: Warden Clans (p. 106, "Seeking the Past") talks about the Dragoon's training. the Goliath Scorpions used their elite Heartvenon Cluster as instructors and opfor during the training.

Sure, but there’s no reference to LAM training for the Goons in the Homeworlds, by the Scorps or otherwise, right?

Quote
and the presence of so many LAMs in the dragoons was one of the oddities the IS noticed when they first arrived.

Is that stated somewhere?  Or are you just assuming because LAMs show up in the Goon TO&Es?

I don’t mean to be pendantic.  If there is a clear canon reference to the Goon LAMs and/or their pilots coming from the Homeworlds, that is a bit of a gamechanger given what we know about the Clan Warrior Caste, its phenotypes, and their training.

But if there is no clear reference, then it’s just as possible that the Goons collected their LAMs and pilots after they arrived in the Inner Sphere.  I could certainly see the tactically forward-thinking Goons offering good pay for Spheroid LAMs and pilots.  And I could also see Spheroid LAM pilots being attracted to work for the premier merc company in the Inner Sphere, especially if the Goons can provide rare LAM parts from old Clan Brian Caches.

Absent a clear canon reference, I think it’s more likely that the Goon LAMs and pilots are all of Spheroid origin.  Even for the Goons’ unusual mission, I find it hard to believe that the Clanners, individually or collectively, would go against their phenotype silos and reinvent a cross-training program to use a weapon type that they have not employed for a couple hundred years.  Just buying up Spheroid LAM pilots seems a lot more straightforward.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #15 on: 14 May 2020, 19:00:16 »
If the Superheavy BattleMech / OmniMech is attempted, the Society scientist have to figure out if they want to use their ProtoMech pilots try pilot the things since you need the VR related stuff to make it work as a single mech mode (Transzor Z/Magaziner Z) or do they have punish their underling warriors work as a TEAM a do a 3-man arrangement.

They could try using ProtoMech Pilots and VR stuff. I think it'd be easier to use washed out MechWarriors though. I'm sure they could find pilots and gunners willing to work together.


Do we really know that?  Or is this just inference?

It’s certainly a possibility.  But do we know that some Goon warriors were trained for LAMs in Homeworlds (whether using SLDF training tools, Scorp trainers, or something else)?

Is this actually stated somewhere?

Did those LAMs come from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAMs salvaged/captured/bought by the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?

Were those LAM pilots Clan warriors from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAM pilot Spheroids who joined the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?

It's mostly inference but we do know that Clan Wolf equipped the Dragoons from SLDF Caches. We also know that the Goliath Scorpions trained the Dragoons in SLDF tactics to an ability that they could stand up to frontline Clan Units. And we know the SLDF used LAMs.

There's also the large number of LAMs listed in the Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook. The number could be even higher before the Dragoon's supply runs. Plus with LAMs being hard to get in the IS I can't see the Dragoons showing up and buying them. It also takes time to train so that would have been harder to do. The Dragoon personnel would have to be highly trained in order to do that so I can't see the LAM pilots getting trained in the IS and being rookies.
 
Kurt Brunner was born as a Goliath Scorpion and underwent trials to join the Dragoons. TRO:3085 He was a Stinger LAM Pilot. And since the Dragoons rarely if ever hired outside mercs I don't see all those LAMs being piloted by IS personnel.

Starfury

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #16 on: 14 May 2020, 19:08:01 »
They could have, but the Society would have seem them as a last resort weapon, especially lacking access to manufacturing resources.  Protomechs and small to medium sized mechs plus vehicles and battle armor (when they could get it) are fair easier to manufacture then 105 ton and larger designs.  The Wobies only used them for defense, much like the Republic is now with C3 communications and ECCM as a force multiplier.  The Society's biggest issue was lack of manpower and an overestimation of their chances. If they had decided to wait after some of the Clans were weakened by the War of Reavings, they might have gotten somewhere..

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #17 on: 14 May 2020, 21:09:18 »
It's mostly inference

That’s what I figured.  To be clear, I have nothing against LAMs.  But since the Clans did have something against LAMs for a couple centuries, I do find it hard to believe that the Clans would resurrect LAMs for the Goons’ mission.

Quote
but we do know that Clan Wolf equipped the Dragoons from SLDF Caches. We also know that the Goliath Scorpions trained the Dragoons in SLDF tactics to an ability that they could stand up to frontline Clan Units. And we know the SLDF used LAMs.

After they discovered LAM pilot in the Inner Sphere, it may be that the Goons asked for LAMs and LAM parts from Brian Caches for their resupply runs.

But I find it unlikely that the Clans, even the spec ops-ish Scorpions, kept LAMs alive for a couple centuries given their phenotypes and how they siloed training according to those phenotypes.  If the Scorps did keep LAMs alive, then we’d have some Clantech LAMs from the Golden Century or such, and we don’t.

I think it’s much more likely that the Goons attracted and sought out LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere after the Goons found out that LAM pilots still existed there.

Quote
There's also the large number of LAMs listed in the Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook. The number could be even higher before the Dragoon's supply runs. Plus with LAMs being hard to get in the IS I can't see the Dragoons showing up and buying them.

The WDSB dates from 3030, and its TO&Es are before/after the Battle of Misery in 3028.  By that time, the Goons had been in the Inner Sphere for 23-25 years, a quarter century, and worked for every Successor State.  That’s plenty of time to collect some LAMs and LAM pilots from across the Inner Sphere.

(I’d also note that those TO&Es date from when the Goons were finishing up their time in the Draconis Combine, the one Successor State that still had an operational LAM parts factory.)

And for those LAM pilots who were dispossessed or could not repair their damaged LAMs, the Goons would have been a special draw as the Goons could provide LAMs and LAM parts from Homeworld Brian Caches.  I would guess that’s where most Goon LAM pilots came from.  LAM pilots, especially the dispossessed or those with broken LAMs, would have flocked to the Goons if the Goons proved that they had a steady supply of LAMs and LAM parts.

Quote
It also takes time to train so that would have been harder to do. The Dragoon personnel would have to be highly trained in order to do that so I can't see the LAM pilots getting trained in the IS and being rookies.

The Scorps/Goons didn’t need to train any LAM pilots for the Goons to field LAMs.  The Goons did hire in the Inner Sphere, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t have hired some of the Inner Sphere’s LAM pilots.

Quote
Kurt Brunner was born as a Goliath Scorpion and underwent trials to join the Dragoons. TRO:3085 He was a Stinger LAM Pilot. And since the Dragoons rarely if ever hired outside mercs I don't see all those LAMs being piloted by IS personnel.

That’s the one bit of canon that opens the door to the possibility of Clan LAM pilots.  But it doesn’t say definitively where he got his LAM training, as part of a regular Scorp LAM program in the Homeworlds or with LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere. 

I could maybe see a Scorpion LAM cross-training program for freeborns that qualify for the Warrior Caste since they don’t have a phenotype and would care less about the stigma of being neither mechwarrior nor pilot.  But the fact that Brunner is trueborn (Shaffer bloodname) and apparently has the mechwarrior phenotype would seem to throw cold water on that theory.

Think I’ll post on Ask the Writers and see if we can get a little more clarity on this.  I’m guessing the writers just never thought it through when writing up the TO&Es in the WDSB (details on the Clans didn’t exist then) or the Brunner entry in TRO3085 (oversight).  But we’ll see...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Greatclub

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #18 on: 14 May 2020, 23:01:38 »
That’s what I figured.  To be clear, I have nothing against LAMs.  But since the Clans did have something against LAMs for a couple centuries, I do find it hard to believe that the Clans would resurrect LAMs for the Goons’ mission.

I don't.

The Scorps trained the 'goons to what their books said were star league standards. If star league standards had LAMs, they trained them for LAM. IIRC, they had to fight actual trials because other clans hated how unclanlike the 'goons were.

The actual hardware was probably pulled out of brian caches where it had sat unused and unwanted for a quarter millennia. Giving them to Wolf would have almost have been garbage disposal. edit - I absolutely shudder at the casualties training the pilots would have produced without any institutional knowledge to draw on.

In reality, it was probably a bad case of new toy syndrome. LAM had only been out 2-3 years at that point and somebody decided it was a good spot to use some, spotlighting how well equipped, sophisticated and high tech the 'goons were. Remember that bit in Wolves on the Border where the dragoons have recon sats and the Sword of Light,  Kurita's showpiece units, don't? Same thing. 
« Last Edit: 14 May 2020, 23:24:09 by Greatclub »

RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #19 on: 14 May 2020, 23:48:07 »
That’s what I figured.  To be clear, I have nothing against LAMs.  But since the Clans did have something against LAMs for a couple centuries, I do find it hard to believe that the Clans would resurrect LAMs for the Goons’ mission.

We don't know that the Clans had something against LAMs for a couple centuries. We do know that by the Clan Invasion that no LAMs were in use with the Clans and that the Nova Cats hated them so much they destroyed the factory rather than retool it. We  also know that the Jade Falcon's didn't hate LAMs. At most they were dismissive of them but they were willing to give them a try. The Hell's Horses use of QuadVees also speeds of a possible willingness to use LAMs. Why they don't would be a guess.


Quote
After they discovered LAM pilot in the Inner Sphere, it may be that the Goons asked for LAMs and LAM parts from Brian Caches for their resupply runs.

Possibly.

Quote
But I find it unlikely that the Clans, even the spec ops-ish Scorpions, kept LAMs alive for a couple centuries given their phenotypes and how they siloed training according to those phenotypes.  If the Scorps did keep LAMs alive, then we’d have some Clantech LAMs from the Golden Century or such, and we don’t.

Then again they could have. They were well trained in SLDF tactics. At least as they understood them and the SLDF did use LAMs. I don't see why a few LAMs couldn't have been used by warriors wanting to train in SLDF tactics. Especially freebirths with something to prove. 

As for not having Clan Tech LAMs from the Golden Century, there's a lot of stuff from the Golden Century we haven't seen. There's a lot of things from various eras we haven't seen. We do know though that the Clans were still using SLDF equipment. It isn't hard to believe that the Scorpions used some LAMs until they either ran of spare parts or attitudes changed so much after the Dragoons left that LAMs were retired.


Quote
I think it’s much more likely that the Goons attracted and sought out LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere after the Goons found out that LAM pilots still existed there.

The WDSB dates from 3030, and its TO&Es are before/after the Battle of Misery in 3028.  By that time, the Goons had been in the Inner Sphere for 23-25 years, a quarter century, and worked for every Successor State.  That’s plenty of time to collect some LAMs and LAM pilots from across the Inner Sphere.


Possible. However, so far I can only find one time where they Dragoons hired out. That was in 3020 after their last supply run. Also hiring out was also a last resort and they were very picky about who they hired. So it isn't impossible for the Dragoons to have hired LAM pilots. That two outside merc warriors would be in Jaime Wolf's own Command Lance I find improbable even if they were Elite LAM Pilots. Also it isn't just pilots they'd need but the techs to repair the LAMs.

Their TO&E would date back to 3028 since they used Wolfhounds at Crossing.


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(I’d also note that those TO&Es date from when the Goons were finishing up their time in the Draconis Combine, the one Successor State that still had an operational LAM parts factory.)

That's actually reason for the LAMs being from Clan Supplies. The DC was trying to absorb the Dragoons by giving them supply problems. They certainly wouldn't sell them parts much less fully intact LAMs. Also that factory produced only one LAM type. The Dragoons had three.


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And for those LAM pilots who were dispossessed or could not repair their damaged LAMs, the Goons would have been a special draw as the Goons could provide LAMs and LAM parts from Homeworld Brian Caches.  I would guess that’s where most Goon LAM pilots came from.  LAM pilots, especially the dispossessed or those with broken LAMs, would have flocked to the Goons if the Goons proved that they had a steady supply of LAMs and LAM parts.

The Scorps/Goons didn’t need to train any LAM pilots for the Goons to field LAMs.  The Goons did hire in the Inner Sphere, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t have hired some of the Inner Sphere’s LAM pilots.

I have no doubt and they may have. How many of them though I doubt we'd know.



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That’s the one bit of canon that opens the door to the possibility of Clan LAM pilots.  But it doesn’t say definitively where he got his LAM training, as part of a regular Scorp LAM program in the Homeworlds or with LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere. 

I could maybe see a Scorpion LAM cross-training program for freeborns that qualify for the Warrior Caste since they don’t have a phenotype and would care less about the stigma of being neither mechwarrior nor pilot.  But the fact that Brunner is trueborn (Shaffer bloodname) and apparently has the mechwarrior phenotype would seem to throw cold water on that theory.

True it doesn't say where he got his training. He was an Elite pilot though. Considering how long it takes to become a LAM pilot, the Dragoons not hiring out until 3020, and then attain elite status by 3028? I don't see him being trained by IS personnel.

I can see most Clan LAM Pilots being freeborn but that doesn't mean a trueborn wouldn't want to. Also his branch of the Shaffer bloodline was undistinguished and there is glory and honor in overcoming high odds. Piloting a LAM would make sure he'd face high odds. There's also the fact that he trialed and one to get into the Dragoons that says something about Kurt's interest in the SLDF and IS. It's also possible he was a seeker. For any or all those reasons I could see him wanting to be a LAM pilot.


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Think I’ll post on Ask the Writers and see if we can get a little more clarity on this.  I’m guessing the writers just never thought it through when writing up the TO&Es in the WDSB (details on the Clans didn’t exist then) or the Brunner entry in TRO3085 (oversight).  But we’ll see...

It would be interesting to find out. I'm going to guess though that things changed over time. Remember the Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon Sourcebooks listed a lot of mechs that at the time would have been the unseen. Now we assume that they're the IIC variants but back then SLDF equipment saw more use. Last I looked a lot of SLDF was still in use with some Clans. So it isn't inconceivable that the Clans were going to use LAMs and events forced a change. Not just with the Clans but the IS too.

Cannonshop

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #20 on: 15 May 2020, 00:00:27 »
We don't know that the Clans had something against LAMs for a couple centuries. We do know that by the Clan Invasion that no LAMs were in use with the Clans and that the Nova Cats hated them so much they destroyed the factory rather than retool it. We  also know that the Jade Falcon's didn't hate LAMs. At most they were dismissive of them but they were willing to give them a try. The Hell's Horses use of QuadVees also speeds of a possible willingness to use LAMs. Why they don't would be a guess.


Possibly.

Then again they could have. They were well trained in SLDF tactics. At least as they understood them and the SLDF did use LAMs. I don't see why a few LAMs couldn't have been used by warriors wanting to train in SLDF tactics. Especially freebirths with something to prove. 

As for not having Clan Tech LAMs from the Golden Century, there's a lot of stuff from the Golden Century we haven't seen. There's a lot of things from various eras we haven't seen. We do know though that the Clans were still using SLDF equipment. It isn't hard to believe that the Scorpions used some LAMs until they either ran of spare parts or attitudes changed so much after the Dragoons left that LAMs were retired.



Possible. However, so far I can only find one time where they Dragoons hired out. That was in 3020 after their last supply run. Also hiring out was also a last resort and they were very picky about who they hired. So it isn't impossible for the Dragoons to have hired LAM pilots. That two outside merc warriors would be in Jaime Wolf's own Command Lance I find improbable even if they were Elite LAM Pilots. Also it isn't just pilots they'd need but the techs to repair the LAMs.

Their TO&E would date back to 3028 since they used Wolfhounds at Crossing.


That's actually reason for the LAMs being from Clan Supplies. The DC was trying to absorb the Dragoons by giving them supply problems. They certainly wouldn't sell them parts much less fully intact LAMs. Also that factory produced only one LAM type. The Dragoons had three.


I have no doubt and they may have. How many of them though I doubt we'd know.



True it doesn't say where he got his training. He was an Elite pilot though. Considering how long it takes to become a LAM pilot, the Dragoons not hiring out until 3020, and then attain elite status by 3028? I don't see him being trained by IS personnel.

I can see most Clan LAM Pilots being freeborn but that doesn't mean a trueborn wouldn't want to. Also his branch of the Shaffer bloodline was undistinguished and there is glory and honor in overcoming high odds. Piloting a LAM would make sure he'd face high odds. There's also the fact that he trialed and one to get into the Dragoons that says something about Kurt's interest in the SLDF and IS. It's also possible he was a seeker. For any or all those reasons I could see him wanting to be a LAM pilot.


It would be interesting to find out. I'm going to guess though that things changed over time. Remember the Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon Sourcebooks listed a lot of mechs that at the time would have been the unseen. Now we assume that they're the IIC variants but back then SLDF equipment saw more use. Last I looked a lot of SLDF was still in use with some Clans. So it isn't inconceivable that the Clans were going to use LAMs and events forced a change. Not just with the Clans but the IS too.

that change can be spelled "Harmony Gold Lawsuit" and "Aerotech 1 didn't sell as well as expected."

that, and due to some of the earlier iterations of the rules, people were abusing the hell out of LAM jump ranges to be effectively unhittable by superior Clan equipment.
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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #21 on: 15 May 2020, 00:04:54 »
that change can be spelled "Harmony Gold Lawsuit" and "Aerotech 1 didn't sell as well as expected."

that, and due to some of the earlier iterations of the rules, people were abusing the hell out of LAM jump ranges to be effectively unhittable by superior Clan equipment.

That'd be the change.  :thumbsup:

Although I like Aerotech 1.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #22 on: 15 May 2020, 23:19:06 »
Depends.

Once they got desperate? Sure, they'd use anything if they thought it'd help.

As a part of their (interrupted) long term plan, as a sort of super-Osteon? Inclined towards no. Super Heavies suck hard and are a technological dead end. What they gain in survivability, they lose in those damned -1 to hit bonus they give to their enemies, and their heinous mobility. Also they lack access to a lot of technologies that would make the frame interesting. Their IS is heavy, and their engine ratings are well on the wrong side of the curve. No Ferro-lamellar armor. Though one with Laser reflective or Reactive could be fun.

Now, if you could break some of those restrictions as a part of Society research, things change, IE, permitting TSM or some such. But the tech as-is is a dead end.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #23 on: 15 May 2020, 23:47:55 »
I don't think Superheavies are a dead end. I think they have limited uses until their technology improves but they are useful. Their biggest limiter is lack of transportation. They can't be moved easily as there's no bay large enough to move them. When that's taken care of they can contribute better than as a defensive unit.

I do think that Superheavies could use some improvements but I don't think that means they're worthless. Until they're improved I think they'd be better behind the lines as mobile artillery and C&C.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #24 on: 16 May 2020, 09:37:57 »
 Too little utility for the investment. They could make them, and they would outclass IS mechs, but they are not fighting against Inner Sphere foes.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #25 on: 16 May 2020, 09:49:17 »
Part of the reason why i personally wanted the time jump was introduction of new technology, which could added things immediately to better utilize the Superheavies in ways we have to wait or be too impatient to wait to be made for them.
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Paul

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #26 on: 16 May 2020, 11:55:22 »
I think they have limited uses until their technology improves but they are useful.

I'm starting to notice that your threshold for useful is "It does something, anything."
For most of us, it's "It does something better than the other thing". You know: competitive.


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When that's taken care of they can contribute better than as a defensive unit.

Not as it currently stands.
Crude examples to illustrate what I mean:

Let's compare a 200 ton SH to two 100 ton Mechs.
Internal structure:
The SH has 298 points of it.
The 2 assaults have 304 points of it.
The SH has to spend 40 tons on that IS.
The Mechs spend 20.

The SH needs a 600 rated engine (doesnt exist) to go 3/5, or a 400 rated engine to go 2/3
The 2 Mechs need either two 300 rated or two 200 rated.
SH: 400 rated engine is 52.5 tons
Mechs: 2x200 rated engine is 17 tons.

Cockpit: Minor gain. 4 tons vs 2 x 3. Doesn't offset the enormous losses in structure and engine mass.

So those 2 assault Mechs are bringing a heck of a lot more payload per total ton of warmachine than the SH ever can.
Never mind that those Mechs have access to tech that the SH does not. Stealth Armor, TSM, modular armor.

The only advantage the SH has is crit space.
That's not enough to offset the lack of access to certain tech, and that cursed -1 to-hit modifier. It's certainly not enough to make them *better* than assault Mechs.


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Until they're improved I think they'd be better behind the lines as mobile artillery and C&C.

A job done well for centuries by vehicles. Who are much easier to transport as you pointed out. And have no trouble being faster than a SH. By their behind-the-scenes nature, their terrain restrictions are less painful as well.

SH need several rule changes to become competitive. Just giving them a Mech cubicle isn't enough. Possibly nothing; the expontial weight growth per rating that starts to kick in north of 300 rated engines is almost like a force of nature, legislating suck. With XXL you can smooth it to the 380s or so, but then it starts to degrade as well.


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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #27 on: 16 May 2020, 17:51:21 »
First... I like the LAM arguments.

Second, there is a larger engine, even with XXL tech.

Third, please continue...

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #28 on: 16 May 2020, 17:54:03 »
Second, there is a larger engine, even with XXL tech.

Yes, I account for that. The problem is the exponential weight growth that kicks in at the engine ratings the super heavies need. Makes it impossible for them to compete with assault Mechs using the same tech; if your super heavy has an XXL, then why not the assault Mechs we're comparing them to?

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #29 on: 16 May 2020, 18:30:31 »

Superheavies do have some advantages, such as greater possible focus of firepower, greater armor thickness, etc.
But to properly exploit these advantages does require having some experience.
Thus we can expect that most early prototypes end up as boondoggles.
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