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Author Topic: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?  (Read 4685 times)

Wrangler

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #60 on: 19 May 2020, 06:12:13 »
Walking mobile HQ not bad option.

Mobile HPG isn't (more role playing or strategic/big game thing)

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RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #61 on: 19 May 2020, 06:18:21 »
Walking mobile HQ not bad option.

Mobile HPG isn't (more role playing or strategic/big game thing)

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Agreed

True is is more an RPG thing but it'd fit in a superheavy better than an assault. I guess capture the HPG games would be different if the HPG carrier can move and fire back.

That'd be fun to see.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #62 on: 19 May 2020, 11:35:21 »
I think a superheavy mech carrying artillery is useful. I don't think it'd ever replace other artillery units but there is a place for it.
Never said it wasn't.  In fact, I've posted a Long Tom superheavy or two somwhere here on this forum before.

What I said is that a walking battery, IOW six artillery guns on one platform, really isn't all that useful vs. just making six units.

RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #63 on: 19 May 2020, 22:02:40 »
Never said it wasn't.  In fact, I've posted a Long Tom superheavy or two somwhere here on this forum before.

What I said is that a walking battery, IOW six artillery guns on one platform, really isn't all that useful vs. just making six units.

Cool! I'll have to look for them.

Well, it is a lot of damage that can be delivered and Mechs can go places vehicles can't. Mostly though that's 6 units you have to transport. That's a lot of tonnage, especially for mechs. If 1 unit can replace some of that, that means tonnage for other units or things.


Wrangler

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #64 on: 20 May 2020, 08:34:08 »
Again, i wonder if the Society ever caught wind of the last resort Superheavy BattleMechs that suddenly appeared on Terra (as operational ones)

I have some doubts the Clans in the Inner Sphere will field them, but you never know.
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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #65 on: 20 May 2020, 13:02:35 »
The Jihad invasion of Terra was very late 3070s, but the Society was purged by 3076.  Not a whole lot of time for the Society to become inspired.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #66 on: 20 May 2020, 19:55:39 »
The Jihad invasion of Terra was very late 3070s, but the Society was purged by 3076.  Not a whole lot of time for the Society to become inspired.
no time actually, as the homeworlds cut off all contact with the IS in early 3075, and the WOB didn't reveal the first superheavy mechs until late 3076.

so only the IS branch of The Society might have a chance to even see info relating to the WoB units, and since the only large branch seems to have been the Falcon one, which was destroyed in 3074, odds are The Society was in no position to seriously benefit from the study.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #67 on: 21 May 2020, 02:44:36 »
no time actually, as the homeworlds cut off all contact with the IS in early 3075, and the WOB didn't reveal the first superheavy mechs until late 3076.
Yeah, the last part of that was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #68 on: 21 May 2020, 03:19:46 »
I don't think that Society consider this because of;
-It uses too much investment just for one unit, that may viewed as inefficient.
-It may give too much power to the individual soldier, and it seems not so good for the scientists that wants to dominate warriors.

dgorsman

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #69 on: 21 May 2020, 11:32:42 »
While I'm on the side of being resource prohibitive from the top level managers in the Society, I can also see a Scientist get all "Of corse the earlier attempts failed.  They were Usurper cronies.  They were Spheroid barbarians.  I am CLAN.  It IS going to work." egocentric about a project like this.
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Col Toda

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #70 on: 27 July 2020, 03:26:46 »
Just about any super heavy  going against like bv of Nagas lose . Arrow IV is the answer to any slow target The society would build equipment to counter super heavy advantages not make a unit that is inherently  artillery fodder
« Last Edit: 27 July 2020, 03:29:26 by Col Toda »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #71 on: 27 July 2020, 10:14:19 »
That's true, but would the Clan commanders have been willing to pull their forces back and rely on artillery?
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #72 on: 27 July 2020, 10:32:22 »
Although zellbrigen denies any interference between the single combat so artillery is not the prefered choice, but Clans DO use artilleries, and against dezgra - and chalcas - zellbrigen is not even a consideration.

-----------------

Also, remember the duel between protomech/battle armor and battlemech, and modified zellbrigen of aerospace fighters. Aerospace fighters aren't follow the code of duel when they against the warship, and a dropship can engage a squadron of aerospace fighter rather than only one fighter. Also a point of protomech/battle armor can issue challenge against each other point of them or the other battlemech(that is basically a point) as if the whole point is just a single entity.

So, it is possible that, even if they follow the rules of zellbrigen against the superheavies, it is possible that a whole mech star can issue challenge, NOT a single mech, and any number of protomech and battle armor can engage the superheavy just as any number of aerospace fighter engage a warship.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #73 on: 27 July 2020, 11:23:55 »
The Hellions were the only Clan that allowed multiple mechs to challenge a single, heavier target.  Other Clans allowed a single mech to potentially challenge multiple opponents at once, but it wasn't required.

And while all Clans used Arrow IV in some capacity, most were still reluctant to actually deploy it even if they have it available.  Especially Homeworld Clans that didn't have the experience of fighting the Inner Sphere and therefore were far more rigid in their thinking when it came to how to fight.
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RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #74 on: 27 July 2020, 16:54:48 »
Just about any super heavy  going against like bv of Nagas lose . Arrow IV is the answer to any slow target The society would build equipment to counter super heavy advantages not make a unit that is inherently  artillery fodder

On the other hand a super heavy can be a walking artillery battery that could out range the Arrow IV.

truetanker

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #75 on: 30 July 2020, 20:03:01 »
Which is why I asked...

If a Point can challenge a another Point, why not a Star vs. Super, as suggested?

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Paul

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #76 on: 30 July 2020, 20:18:28 »
Because a superheavy isnt worth 5 Mechs.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #77 on: 30 July 2020, 23:39:27 »
That's true, but a point of battle armor is not worth a mech either - I think that at least a star of them is required to withstand a mech point(1 mech).

And a superheavy mech is hardly worth only one mech either.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #78 on: 31 July 2020, 00:35:40 »
That's true, but a point of battle armor is not worth a mech either - I think that at least a star of them is required to withstand a mech point(1 mech).

Great, so let's extend the error? OK then, yeah, whatever you want to do, because there's really not a legitimate question on the table if there is no requirement to try to achieve some sort of balance.


Quote
And a superheavy mech is hardly worth only one mech either.

It's pretty much just 1 Mech. The flaws are that massive. Willing to settle for calling it 2 heavies for argument's sake.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #79 on: 31 July 2020, 01:15:37 »
It's only worth more than one mech if it's being compared to really bad mechs.

And that's no different from a Clan assault mech in that regard.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #80 on: 31 July 2020, 06:40:52 »
The SuperHeavy actually has several non-tangible advantages over equal tonnage of smaller machines:

1.) One engine vs multiple engines.  That takes fewer resources
2.) A crew that can each be trained in their primary focus (pilot, gunner, etc) vs 1 man who has to be trained in all the aspects.  Reduces training time needed since you can train the crew in parallel, costs less to train each individual.
3.)  Transport:  This one is variable, as SH 'mechs must be transported via cargo rules, so a SH bay is up to 200 tons, while 'mech bays are 150 tons each but have repair facilities.

This is not to say SH 'mechs are better, only that there are reasons for a faction to build them that are not immediately visible.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #81 on: 31 July 2020, 10:17:46 »
Tripods are the only mechs that have multiple crew with dedicated positions.

A bipedal superheavy like the Omega still has only one person inside.
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Paul

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #82 on: 31 July 2020, 10:42:14 »
The SuperHeavy actually has several non-tangible advantages over equal tonnage of smaller machines:

1: doesnt hold up given how immensely heavy and costly engines get in the higher end. The curve for engine ton age alone kills them, as demonstrated earlier in the thread.

2: Not having a crew has always been touted as an advantage for Mechs. Dedicated training and length of training are not meaningful or measurable advantages in BT. Meanwhile those guys not being useful in regular Mechs is a problem. And super heavies dont intrinsically have crews as pointed out.

3: I find it impossible to consider the 200 tons vs 300 tons as an advantage, given the huge cost in deployment time and the extra burden in repairing them. Those problems are far more costly than 100 tons.


Quote
This is not to say SH 'mechs are better, only that there are reasons for a faction to build them that are not immediately visible.

There really, objectively, factually are no reasons to use crappy SH Mechs in the BT universe. Between their fundamental gameplay rules and them being especially harmed by the way engine mass is calculated, theyre just bad. Anything they do can be done better and cheaper by other stuff. Rules changes are needed to un-suck them. Until those happen, no meaningful case in their favor can be made.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #83 on: 31 July 2020, 11:17:02 »
1: doesnt hold up given how immensely heavy and costly engines get in the higher end. The curve for engine ton age alone kills them, as demonstrated earlier in the thread.

Let us say, for instance, every engine built requires a Widget.  No exceptions, no special cases, you have to have a Widget.  In this case you require one Widget for the Superheavy engine as opposed to two Widgets for the standard 'mechs.  That means you don't need to expand Widget production as much, which is a concern for the Society.

2.)  Yes, 1 man pilots are an advantage for 'mechs.  However, the Society is in the unique position of not being able to field sufficient Mechwarriors.  In such a case, you have to look for alternatives, like the Society did with ProtoMechs.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #84 on: 31 July 2020, 11:39:50 »
Widgets: now we are really moving in to nebulous territory. But regardless of whether this widget is a strawman or an actual problem, the bottleneck for the society was secrecy. Not engines. They had a Mech factory on strana mechty.

MW shortage: their quality MWs were meant for the Scepticemia, not the Osteons. Given that SHs are intrinsically easier destroy, theyd never consider it a viable alternative, unless we introduce a macguffin that allows them to unsuck the SH intrinsically. But, notably, thats contrary to their strategy in the 3070s.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #85 on: 31 July 2020, 11:44:50 »
To expand on that: if we agreed for the sake of argument that itd be possible to use Reinforced structure and F-L armor on a SH, thatd go some way to change my position. The ease with which to hit it, and the engine penalty are still problems to me, so Id need some more convincing.
Mimetic armor would likewise significantly change the evaluation.
But those arent options, RAW.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #86 on: 31 July 2020, 13:36:18 »
A 150 tonner with a 2MP needs a 300 rated, 19 ton engine to move. While slow, it can still carry max armor, armored components and the like. If one was designed ergonomically,  I'll bet it can be done, but since it means usurping standard designs, it should be noted.

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Paul

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #87 on: 31 July 2020, 13:49:26 »
You reckon that two 75 ton 2/3 Mechs will be bringing a lot more payload to the party?

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #88 on: 31 July 2020, 14:11:08 »
Well, thing is tripods tends to save on speed if their heavier since they only pay for 1 MP turn no matter the direction their facing.

Given that advantages, Society could use it than using couple heavies.  Society also wants to freak out normal Clan Warriors.

Only thing is Tripods weren't thing yet in time Society was around.
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truetanker

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #89 on: 31 July 2020, 14:21:00 »
Dig Lord was around SL era... it was a Tripod.

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