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Author Topic: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?  (Read 3714 times)

Maingunnery

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #90 on: 31 July 2020, 14:53:10 »

SH can be interesting, but I don't think the Society would have the means to properly deploy them, nor do they really fit their mindset.
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dgorsman

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #91 on: 31 July 2020, 15:02:25 »
I can see them using super-heavies the same way they planned to use the Osteon: something that can take a licking while dishing out massive firepower assisted by (and distracting from) other Nova-equipped units.  Use of CLPS and null-sig would not be unexpected either - if they could get it to work with the Nova CEWS then getting it to work, in a limited fashion at least, on a super-heavy is plausible.

The big downside for me always comes back to logistics and secrecy.  No way they can build enough of them prior to open conflict happening without drawing too much attention.  They had enough problems getting sufficient Osteons built.  Good odds on them having the idea kicking around for later though.  The whole over the top 'We are superior, there's nothing we can't do bigger and better!' nature of the super-heavy Mechs is right up the Society's alley.
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Paul

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #92 on: 31 July 2020, 15:37:44 »
Well, thing is tripods tends to save on speed if their heavier since they only pay for 1 MP turn no matter the direction their facing.

Yeah. Works for those 75 tonners as well if you make them as tripods.

We have been over all this earlier in the thread. Engine weight kills it. Construction rules kills it.

I can see them using super-heavies the same way they planned to use the Osteon: something that can take a licking while dishing out massive firepower assisted by (and distracting from) other Nova-equipped units.

Yeah, and thats only viable if the SH can be made to be more survivable as an Osteon.
It cannot.
So it’s not a viable path. Thats a fact.


RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #93 on: 01 August 2020, 01:29:15 »
3.)  Transport:  This one is variable, as SH 'mechs must be transported via cargo rules, so a SH bay is up to 200 tons, while 'mech bays are 150 tons each but have repair facilities.

This is not to say SH 'mechs are better, only that there are reasons for a faction to build them that are not immediately visible.


When did SH Mech Bays become available?  ???



You reckon that two 75 ton 2/3 Mechs will be bringing a lot more payload to the party?

How long would it take to kill a SH Mech with max armor and Armored everything compared to 2 Heavy Mechs?


Yeah. Works for those 75 tonners as well if you make them as tripods.

We have been over all this earlier in the thread. Engine weight kills it. Construction rules kills it.

Yeah, and thats only viable if the SH can be made to be more survivable as an Osteon.
It cannot.
So it’s not a viable path. Thats a fact.

Tripods under 100 tons don't get the 3rd crew member/Command Console. Nor can they be built with one. That gives the SH Tripod an advantage. Not a big one but still one.

Paul

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #94 on: 01 August 2020, 08:47:21 »
How long would it take to kill a SH Mech with max armor and Armored everything compared to 2 Heavy Mechs?

I feel like we've been over that already.

Yep:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=69355.msg1610498#msg1610498

So, yeah, short form: the tonnage the Sh loses to the engine compared to its 2 opponents, plus the other tonnages it loses means those 2 Mechs will have significantly mroe throw weight. Especially when you insist the SH has to be further punished by having armored crits.

Then we add that -1 penalty the SH gets (a truly brutal nega-trait)
Then we add that the SH can't have access to certain armor and internal types (but the regular Mechs could)

And the only plausible outcome is the SH loses 100% of the time, save lucky shots. Sure, one of the other 2 Mechs is also dead. But the SH's negative attributes completely nullify its potential advantages, with plenty of negativity left over.

All of which ignores the rather significant advantage of being faster than it and just not giving it any targets at all, making the SH strategically as valuable as a pillbox. Only a problem when you feel like it, and then best resolved with artillery fire of bombing runs.


Quote
That gives the SH Tripod an advantage. Not a big one but still one.

An irrelevant one, compared to what it has to overcome to be competitive.

Super Heavies are a dead end unless the rules change. IE making one with Mimetic armor would drastically increase their utility.

Alexander Knight

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #95 on: 01 August 2020, 10:22:05 »

When did SH Mech Bays become available?  ???

When basic cargo bays became available.   :)

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #96 on: 02 August 2020, 03:36:03 »
It is the time to develop the standard container and the standard cargo bay for it, then.

----------------------

Remember that superheavy is susceptible against armor-piercing effects, although its odd is not that high. But able to cause crit for 10+ on a hit seems better approach than simply round off all the armor. Well, it is a moot idea, since the Society have no chance to encounter Inner Sphere force.

Shin Ji

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #97 on: 02 August 2020, 08:35:17 »
The only reason I can see for super heavies is for them to be Artillery carriers in situations where tanks and such cannot do the job terribly well. But that is so hyper-specialized that it's hard to even argue it as a valid reason for their existence, let alone for a faction to mass produce them.

Honestly, even then, Heavies probably do the job better aside from being limited to Arrow IV.

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #98 on: 02 August 2020, 10:28:09 »
As the Heleopolis demonstrates, you can stick a Sniper artillery piece on a heavy mech.
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RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #99 on: 03 August 2020, 00:13:01 »
When basic cargo bays became available.   :)


 :blank: ... It takes a lot longer to load and unload from a cargo bay than one of the other bays that units are deployed from. Unless you're infantry. Then it doesn't.




The only reason I can see for super heavies is for them to be Artillery carriers in situations where tanks and such cannot do the job terribly well. But that is so hyper-specialized that it's hard to even argue it as a valid reason for their existence, let alone for a faction to mass produce them.

Honestly, even then, Heavies probably do the job better aside from being limited to Arrow IV.


Artillery, Command,  Mobile Command Base, Mobile HPG, Troop Transport (If using those rules.) Plugging a hole in a defensive wall. Making a hole in a defensive wall. Being a decoy. A massive mobile repair/salvage/cooling unit. A massive engineering unit.

May not be better but could free up bays for better units.

Alexander Knight

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #100 on: 03 August 2020, 01:14:09 »

 :blank: ... It takes a lot longer to load and unload from a cargo bay than one of the other bays that units are deployed from. Unless you're infantry. Then it doesn't.


The increase in time is really not that important unless you're being stupid and unloading within combat range of the enemy.

RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #101 on: 03 August 2020, 03:32:45 »
The increase in time is really not that important unless you're being stupid and unloading within combat range of the enemy.

No, you don't want to have to load or unload within combat range of the enemy. That it can be carried as cargo though doesn't mean there's a dedicated SH Mech Bay.

Talen5000

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #102 on: 03 August 2020, 03:45:16 »
CLAMs required a two-seat cockpit arrangement and the Society was noted to be short on pilots, so that probably was enough to convince them to focus on other projects.  Like, as you said, the Glider protomechs.

The two seat arrangement was a fudge to bypass the need for specialist training. It may or may not have carried over to a production model.

LAMs probably would not be embraced by the Society. Great mobility but they pay for it with decreased lethality and increased fragility, and pilots would require increased training reducing numbers even more.

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RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #103 on: 03 August 2020, 22:21:17 »
The two seat arrangement was a fudge to bypass the need for specialist training. It may or may not have carried over to a production model.

LAMs probably would not be embraced by the Society. Great mobility but they pay for it with decreased lethality and increased fragility, and pilots would require increased training reducing numbers even more.


I think the increased training would be what might discourage LAM use. Otherwise the Clan prototypes had a pretty good showing the one time they were in combat. Yes, they were destroyed but they went up against two 70 ton Mechs and won. LAMs also have advantages beyond straight combat. I think their use or lack thereof would depend on the cell. Some would hate them others might think they'd be useful. Maybe we haven't heard of them being used because the surviving Home Clans hate LAMs so much all mention of them were reaved?

truetanker

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #104 on: 06 August 2020, 19:46:57 »
Hmm... SH transported by a Mobile Structure...

Now here's an idea...

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Paul

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #105 on: 06 August 2020, 20:04:55 »
Finally, something slow enough for an urby to hunt.

truetanker

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #106 on: 08 August 2020, 21:15:28 »
Paul?

Rattler vs. Urbies.

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Col Toda

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #107 on: 09 October 2020, 04:13:19 »
No The Society is marked as a trail of annihilation by nearly all Clans so Zelbrdgen is not an issue . Artillary and Ortillary is on the table as well as WMDs so a Star of super heavys is a slow moving target VS a Star of Nagas and a Star of spotters at the same weight . Their best strategy is to make their own Deep periphery state a year + beyond the Taurens  and come back relabled in a couple hundred years . Leave behind a sacrifice force so the Clans can declare victory and forget about them .

RifleMech

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #108 on: 09 October 2020, 05:46:48 »
Leave behind a sacrifice force so the Clans can declare victory and forget about them .

Maybe they did? Was everyone accounted for once the fighting was over? Or did they go straight into reaving the IS taint from the Clans?

whistler

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #109 on: 15 October 2020, 06:11:53 »
Weirdo took a tripod up against a company (IIRC) of Urbanmechs in a city fight. I believe he managed to take out at least half of them before the end of the game, albeit with considerable damage incurred. So I feel like the SHs have a chance. If have to run the scenario myself to be sure though. Plus with clan tech there are a lot of scarry possibilities... can you imagine a tripod with a Supernova's weapons and the heatsinks to make it an alpha baby? Maybe even get a tarcomp on that puppy, pick them off from 25 hexes.

Also, I've not read the entire thread but reading some of the comments I go the mental image of a clan pilot, in battle armor, in a photometric, piloting the the tripod.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #110 on: 15 October 2020, 10:56:39 »
Weirdo took a tripod up against a company (IIRC) of Urbanmechs in a city fight. I believe he managed to take out at least half of them before the end of the game, albeit with considerable damage incurred. So I feel like the SHs have a chance. If have to run the scenario myself to be sure though. Plus with clan tech there are a lot of scarry possibilities... can you imagine a tripod with a Supernova's weapons and the heatsinks to make it an alpha baby? Maybe even get a tarcomp on that puppy, pick them off from 25 hexes.

You mean like the Ares D (Hephaestus)?
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truetanker

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Re: Would the Society have used Super Heavies?
« Reply #111 on: 16 October 2020, 13:43:54 »
Something like that,  but more... clanish.

Warhawk Prime / Dire Wolf Widowmaker hybrid configuration.

This would be epic, no?

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