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Author Topic: Handheld ideas thread  (Read 7004 times)

wellspring

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Handheld ideas thread
« on: 07 January 2013, 14:47:30 »
Based on this thread. Here are my ideas. All three are intended for a WoB Waneta LAM design. Fluff included for your pleasure.

The Blakists were never successful with their Land-Air Mech designs, despite their best efforts. In particular, the Word scientists struggled with the same problem that plagued Star League-era designs: the lack of room for adequate weaponry. In the end, the Blakists opted to use clan technology to maximize firepower. However along the way, several alternatives had been explored and rejected.

One of the most promising of these approaches was to equip their LAMs with hand-held weapons, a then-recent Federated Suns innovation. The concept was tested extensively, and the Word of Blake even went so far as to turn out several manufacturing runs of handhelds before abandoning the concept. This unused cache was uncovered at Luyten, and Republic intelligence officers were eventually able to piece together the story. The weapons had been quite effective, especially once they were upgraded to clantech as part of the general LAM effort.

However, the Blakist LAMs were used primarily in commando strikes, a role ill-suited to the drawbacks of hand-helds. In particular, the problem of transporting the weapons into battle was never solved. Having the LAMs carry them as cargo defeated the purpose of having a hand-held in the first place. Dropping them in cargo containers or shuttling them down was deemed impractical. Ultimately, despite the pilots' objections, mission planners abandoned the concept and the weapons were mothballed, never having actually been deployed in combat. The hand-held concept survived only in the visual appearance of the Waneta's fixed main weapon.

The Blakist scientists had discovered very early on that missile launchers out-performed direct-fire weapons by a considerable margin, especially since the kind of fast in-and-out commando strikes conducted by LAMs emphasized quick bursts of high-intensity firepower over sustained slugging matches. The limited ammunition was discovered to have another advantage; once emptied, a captured weapon posed little threat to the LAM pilot who dropped it.

  • ATM-9: The least common of the LAM designs, it carries a single clan ATM-9 launcher plus half a ton of HE ammunition (enough for three shots). Limited availability of the salvaged ATM technology rather than its performance quickly doomed this version.
  • LRM-25: This design uses 5 LRM-5 packs, which share a half-ton of ammunition among them for two salvoes. Pilots learned to cache these launchers at fall-back positions, where they would use specialized ammunition such as mines, smoke, and incendiaries to deter pursuit, leaving the conventional ammunition for their own integral LRM launchers.
  • SRM-18: The SRM design's name is actually a misnomer. It employs a trio of SRM-6 launchers, with a ton of ammunition providing five salvos. Pilots praised this design, which marginally outguns the Waneta's base weapons layout with no overheat. However, since the LAM's normal weapons are unavailable while the Waneta carries this gun, mission planners remained skeptical of its actual usefulness in battle.

Oddly, one weapon that wasn't found in the Word of Blake cache was a hand-held weapon based on the Rocket Launcher. Apparently, scientists on the hand-held project had been given access to clan technology as part of the authorization for the entire LAM project and became fixated on the cachet of the stolen clan tech. The project leaders, already facing cancellation, also feared that by reverting to Inner Sphere weapons they would draw attention to themselves. Ironically, junior scientists interviewed by Republic intelligence reported that simple, cheap rocket launchers significantly outperformed the more sophisticated clan weapons. Two versions were conceived, but never produced. One used eighty five rockets. The other, a "pistol" design, would fire only fifty rockets, but could be carried and used in one hand.


mbear

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #1 on: 07 January 2013, 15:42:28 »
Two other Waneta Handheld ideas:

  • MML-7 with a half ton of SRM ammo and a half ton of LRM ammo.
  • iNarc launcher with a half ton of pods. These would allow friendly units to improve missile performance.
  • Narc Launcher with a variety of pods. Same as above, plus explosive pods.

Patron MilitiaMech - 3x Rocket Launcher 10 pods. Enemy unit walks past hidden Patron, Patron steps out of cover and bombards enemy unit's rear.

Buster w/iTSM (2 hands, ten tons capacity)
  • MRM20, 1 ton armor, Apollo FCS, 1 ton ammo.
  • LRM15, 1 ton armor, Artemis IV FCS, 1 ton ammo.
  • LRM15, 1 ton armor, 2 tons specialty ammo (Thunder Augmented, Thunder, etc.)
  • 8 x SRM2, 1 ton armor, 1 ton ammo (Elemental Hunter)

Sokuryou SurveyMech (2 hands, 2.5 tons capacity)
  • 2xRocket Launcher 15, 1x Rocket Launcher 10 - dissuade pursuit
  • Vehicle Flamer, 1 ton ammo, 1 ton armor - Anti-infantry, set fires to cover escape
  • 2x Light Machine Guns, 1 ton ammo, 0.5 tons armor - anti-infantry
  • 2x MagShots, 1 ton ammo, 0.5 armor - anti-infantry, dissuade pursuit
  • LRM-5, 0.5 tons smoke ammo - covers escape

Maingunnery

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #2 on: 07 January 2013, 16:08:16 »



Gatling - RAC5 with 1 tons of ammo and protected by 1 ton of armor.  [12 tons]

Shotgun - LGauss with 1 ton of ammo and protected by 1 ton of armor.  [12 tons]

LRM25 - Five LRM5s with 1 ton of ammo and protected by 1 ton of armor.  [12 tons]

MML7P(istol) - MML7 with 1 tons of ammo, and protected by half a ton of armor.   [6 tons]
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ProtoEva00

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #3 on: 07 January 2013, 18:06:57 »
Well, hand helds are how a Veritech does it, so it's not a new idea, but the problems I found when trying to make a work around, is how do you carry it into battle?  You would have to walk (or bounce) there, cause as soon as you go into aerospace mode, you'd have to drop it.  Aerospace fighters have no hands to carry it, and LAMs are prohibited from wing mounts, you'd have to carry it internally, and then, what's the point?

About the only thing I could think of, is a airdrop from a separate aircraft accompanying the LAM to it's destination.

Another problem, you would have to redesign the Waneta to mount all of it's hard mounted weapons in the legs to be able to use them, and the handheld at the same time.  Interestingly, this would leave you with no weapons in the forward arc, while in fighter mode, because leg mounted weapons go to the rear arc on a LAM.



Gatling - RAC5 with 1 tons of ammo and protected by 1 ton of armor.  [12 tons]

Shotgun - LGauss with 1 ton of ammo and protected by 1 ton of armor.  [12 tons]

LRM25 - Five LRM5s with 1 ton of ammo and protected by 1 ton of armor.  [12 tons]

MML7P(istol) - MML7 with 1 tons of ammo, and protected by half a ton of armor.   [6 tons]


Hand helds are restricted to 10% of the mechs tonnage, and the Waneta, largest of LAMs, is 55 tons.
« Last Edit: 07 January 2013, 18:13:40 by ProtoEva00 »

Maingunnery

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #4 on: 07 January 2013, 18:20:11 »
Hand helds are restricted to 10% of the mechs tonnage, and the Waneta, largest of LAMs, is 55 tons.
The limit is 20% if using TSM. Also I am intending them for a 60 ton industrial mech with industrial TSM.
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ProtoEva00

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #5 on: 07 January 2013, 18:29:02 »
The limit is 20% if using TSM. Also I am intending them for a 60 ton industrial mech with industrial TSM.

Was actualy researching that, and you beat me to it.  Yes, TSM will double carry tonnage, and TSM is one of the only crit fillers that are permited on LAMs (long as it's all in the same location)

wellspring

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #6 on: 07 January 2013, 18:36:57 »
Just to clarify, while my ideas were fixed on the Waneta-- because LAMs desperately need the additional firepower-- the point of the thread is to be open to handheld ideas of all kinds.

One thing that came up frequently in the parent thread was the idea of using IndustrialMechs (especially those with ITSM). Handhelds are intended for this purpose to give militia a battlemech-like capability even though they don't have actual battlemechs. So you get to augment your forces with loadermechs and agrimechs and constructionmechs that normally wouldn't have a military use at all. Among these kinds of mechs, 60-tonners with ITSM will be quite common.

For LAMs, as my fluff explained, the issues ProtoEva identified resulted in the project being terminated without ever being deployed in battle. The question of how you get the hand-held into battle in the first place is trickier than it sounds. Plus you lose your main weapons while you're carrying it. So the idea isn't to augment existing firepower, but to give either a disposable nova capability (the RL is ideal for this) or a way to deploy special capabilities without using omni tech or compromising the already limited weapons selection (that's what the LRM does).

I included the SRM and ATM versions partly to illustrate that the benefits might be more psychological than substantive.

Atlan

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #7 on: 07 January 2013, 19:53:30 »
I remember hearing that there was a rule that allowed Aerospace fighters to mount extra weapons (bombs) externally. If that's an actual rule, and not a homebrew rule, it could give a way for a LAM to mount a hand-held weapon.

wellspring

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #8 on: 07 January 2013, 22:47:38 »
The hardpoints rule doesn't apply to LAMs.

Feign

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #9 on: 08 January 2013, 02:48:00 »
Having a support aircraft drop locked cargo containers with the various weapons as the LAMs enter the field is one way to get them into play.  Of course a few decoy crates each filled with a big booby trap would make for a pretty good deterrent to enemy forces picking up the weapons for themselves (or standing anywhere near the crates, for that matter).
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mbear

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #10 on: 08 January 2013, 08:13:56 »
Theoretical 100 ton IndustrialMech with iTSM (20 ton max):

  • MRM-40, 1 ton ammo, Apollo FCS, LAC/2, 1 ton ammo, 1 ton armor
  • MRM-40, 1 ton ammo, Apollo FCS, LAC/5, 1 ton ammo
  • 3xLAC/5, 1 ton armor, 4 tons ammo (1 ton Flak, 1 ton Precision, etc.)
  • PPC, 10 heat sinks, 1 ton armor, 2 MG, 1 ton ammo
  • PPC, 10 heat sinks, 1 ton armor, 4xRL-10
  • 2xRAC/2, 2 tons ammo, 1 ton armor, 4xRL-10
  • 4xLAC/2, 3 tons ammo (various ammo types), 1 ton armor

Edit 2013/01/17 Actually I don't know that the PPC versions are legal. I think they might exceed the available critical slots. Same with the multiple LAC/RAC weapons. Edit 2013/02/08 They don't. Yay!

For the Buster with iTSM (10 ton max):
  • Light PPC, 5 heat sinks, 4xRL-10
  • Light PPC, 5 heat sinks, 2xMG, 1 ton ammo
  • RAC/2, 1 ton armor, 1 ton ammo

For the Buster without iTSM (5 ton max):
  • LAC/2, 1 ton ammo, 1 ton armor
  • Medium Laser, 3 heat sinks, 1 ton armor

Istal_Devalis

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #11 on: 11 January 2013, 09:24:58 »
Thinking about it, is there any reason you cant put a cargo lift on a LAM?

wellspring

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #12 on: 11 January 2013, 09:33:25 »
Thinking about it, is there any reason you cant put a cargo lift on a LAM?

Well, one would be that we don't have construction rules for LAMs :)

I'm surprised there isn't a rule about handheld tonnage restrictions not being influenced by lift hoists.

Istal_Devalis

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #13 on: 11 January 2013, 09:35:42 »
Well, one would be that we don't have construction rules for LAMs :)

I'm surprised there isn't a rule about handheld tonnage restrictions not being influenced by lift hoists.
You need both hand actuators to fire it, so the rules for carrying cargo in your hands come into play.

Nothing wrong with using lift hoists to tote the things around, though.

Vanadius

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #14 on: 11 January 2013, 10:34:15 »
Well, one would be that we don't have construction rules for LAMs :)

I'm surprised there isn't a rule about handheld tonnage restrictions not being influenced by lift hoists.

There is a ruling, at least.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,25818.msg588537.html#msg588537

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #15 on: 12 January 2013, 22:53:10 »
neat thread. Neat ideas. What is "iTSM" though? Improved???

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wellspring

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #16 on: 12 January 2013, 23:20:41 »
neat thread. Neat ideas. What is "iTSM" though? Improved???

Industrial TSM. TechManual p240-241.

It's basically IndustrialMech-only TSM that doesn't have a heat requirement and benefits lifting only.

MrJake

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #17 on: 13 January 2013, 04:31:51 »
So, is there anything that can't be put into a HHW?

mbear

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #18 on: 14 January 2013, 08:06:14 »
So, is there anything that can't be put into a HHW?
Only weapons, weapon augmentations (like Artemis/Apollo), and TAG can be carried. Each HHW has 6 equipment slots. Assign weapons like vehicles (energy weapons needs heat sinks, Ballistic/Missile weapons don't), Single Heat sinks only, armor available in 1 ton/half ton lots. Ammunition for weapons can be allocated per shot rather than by per ton (like Battle Armor or ProtoMechs). Max weight of weapon and all components = 10% of 'Mech weight; 20% for active TSM.

MrJake

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #19 on: 14 January 2013, 21:09:04 »
AFB, but doesn't one of the examples mention using a chainsaw? So does "weapons" in this case also include "things that can be used as weapons"?

Korzon77

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #20 on: 15 January 2013, 02:32:09 »
I've wondered-why do hand weapons need heat sinks?  They're exposed and so they woudln' be venting heat back into the mech.

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #21 on: 15 January 2013, 08:06:33 »
AFB, but doesn't one of the examples mention using a chainsaw? So does "weapons" in this case also include "things that can be used as weapons"?
Yes, but you can only have 1 physical/melee weapon in a HHW IIRC. See the latest errata document for details.

I've wondered-why do hand weapons need heat sinks?  They're exposed and so they woudln' be venting heat back into the mech.
For the same reason your computer needs a heat sink on the CPU (and maybe GPU): To prevent the heat from the weapon frying the control circuits.

wellspring

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #22 on: 15 January 2013, 12:04:52 »
Which reminds me of another use for handhelds: style points. In fact, that's probably their main use.

What's worse than a Lyran scout lance? When all four Atlases fire up their chainsaws.  :D

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #23 on: 15 January 2013, 22:09:19 »
Yes, but you can only have 1 physical/melee weapon in a HHW IIRC. See the latest errata document for details.


Two things:

1. Where do I find errata documents?

2. Since most/many of the tools used by iMechs can be used as a melee weapon, then couldn't a single iMech that could use HHWs do, well, just about any job? A 35 tonner with iTSM and a lift hoist could carry 35 tons of various "tools" (five different ones up to 7 tons each in this case) and just deploy whatever it needed as a HHW?

Korzon77

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #24 on: 16 January 2013, 02:51:10 »
See the latest errata document for details.
For the same reason your computer needs a heat sink on the CPU (and maybe GPU): To prevent the heat from the weapon frying the control circuits.

True, but the problem with a mech is that all that heat is within a heavily armored body--and because of that, it needs a way to radiate out faster than it naturally would-- hence, heat sinks.

A HW weapon could be designed so the heat is radiated far more effeciently, requiring less in the way of dedicated heatsinks, albeit possibly at the cost of some armor protection.

mbear

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #25 on: 16 January 2013, 08:56:55 »
Two things:

1. Where do I find errata documents?

2. Since most/many of the tools used by iMechs can be used as a melee weapon, then couldn't a single iMech that could use HHWs do, well, just about any job? A 35 tonner with iTSM and a lift hoist could carry 35 tons of various "tools" (five different ones up to 7 tons each in this case) and just deploy whatever it needed as a HHW?
1. The main errata page on bg.battletech.com or the Errata Forum. In this case the Tactical Operations Errata posting.

2. I think the answer is no, because the tools you mention are considered melee weapons. Which means that you can only fit one into a HHW. I think.

mbear

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #26 on: 16 January 2013, 08:59:36 »
True, but the problem with a mech is that all that heat is within a heavily armored body--and because of that, it needs a way to radiate out faster than it naturally would-- hence, heat sinks.

A HW weapon could be designed so the heat is radiated far more effeciently, requiring less in the way of dedicated heatsinks, albeit possibly at the cost of some armor protection.
In universe answer: Maybe the heat sinks that we're required to add are the more efficient way of doing it.

Out of universe answer #1: I think it's an attempt to keep the number of rules down by reusing ones players are familiar with from vehicle construction.

Out of universe answer #2: It's a game and we should be focused on shooting things. ;)

mbear

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #27 on: 16 January 2013, 09:27:49 »
For the Buster with iTSM (10 ton max):
  • AC/5, 1 ton armor, 1 ton ammo
  • AC/2, 1 ton armor, 3 tons ammo (special munitions)
  • MRM-20, 1 ton armor, 1 ton ammo (1 ton underweight)
  • 3xMRM-10, 1 ton ammo

For the Buster without iTSM (5 ton max):
  • MRM-10, 1 ton armor, 1 ton ammo
  • half ton armor, 3xRL-20

I chose these because I think there are probably a lot of these weapons just lying around in a storage depot somewhere, particularly after 3050. The AC/2 and AC/5 have been superseded by LB-X, Ultra, Light, and Rotary versions, but it doesn't make sense to just throw them away. So they're probably going to be assigned to planetary militia units.

MRMs are another example. They aren't really used on a lot of front-line units, but they're still effective in their niche. So rather than have them consigned to the scrap heap, I imagine they'd go to militia units. The Rocket Launcher isn't a particularly difficult weapon to produce either. Since it's basically an overgrown bottle rocket, I imagine almost any planet could build them.

Maingunnery

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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #28 on: 16 January 2013, 13:27:30 »

Does chemical laser ammo use equipment slots?
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Re: Handheld ideas thread
« Reply #29 on: 16 January 2013, 14:41:19 »
For a disposable hand-held 'weapon' for LAMs (they fly down, and meet a small shuttle carrying their weapons), I present the Vandal style HHW:

5 tons total mass
Fluid Gun - 2 tons
ammo - 3 tons

Yes, a Mech-sized spray can so the LAM pilots can put up graffiti everywhere they've been.   :D

(Also a tag so I can find this thread later.  Several ideas in here look very nice.)