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Author Topic: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators  (Read 2134 times)

SCC

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Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« on: 09 January 2013, 05:26:26 »
OK, I'm looking at doing a combat-rated industrial exp-skeleton (probably actually a PA(L), but, hey, marketing buzz-words) and I'm looking at the BA Manipulator Weight table and something hits me, Cargo Lifters allow your BA to lift (for them) large weights, but how do they actually pick this stuff up? The rules come just short of actually saying you can only mount one pair of manipulators and as Cargo Lifters are the sort that you have to mount two of.

DarkISI

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #1 on: 09 January 2013, 05:52:36 »
You can take a look at two examples of Cargo Lifters on the MUL and see how they are used in construction in TRO Vehicle Annex.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4851

And I really don't see where the rules come "just short of".
TM clearly states mounting them in pairs and that you can up their lifting capacity by adding heavier Cargo Lifters.
« Last Edit: 09 January 2013, 05:54:48 by DarkISI »
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SCC

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #2 on: 09 January 2013, 06:01:40 »
What I'm talking about is this
Quote
Manipulator or adaptor types that need not be mounted in pairs may be combined with other manipulator types, so long as these other types also need not be installed in pairs.
I read that as saying that I can mount to different manipulators that don't require mounting in pairs, such as an armored glove and basic manipulator or a single pair, such as a pair of Cargo Lifters

BirdofPrey

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #3 on: 09 January 2013, 06:07:26 »
We don't actually have any rules for BA lifting capacity or picking things up as far as I am aware of.
Not in Total warfare, not in the advanced rules, and not in the personal scale under AToW.

BirdofPrey

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #4 on: 09 January 2013, 06:09:14 »
What I'm talking about is thisI read that as saying that I can mount to different manipulators that don't require mounting in pairs, such as an armored glove and basic manipulator or a single pair, such as a pair of Cargo Lifters
That's saying you can mix an armored glove with a heavy battle claw for instance.  Since neither has to be mounted in pairs, you are free to fit one of each.  If it does not say mount in pairs, mix and match.
Something that has to be mounted in pairs can't be combined since you can't have two 'hands' on one arm.

DarkISI

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #5 on: 09 January 2013, 06:12:34 »
What I'm talking about is thisI read that as saying that I can mount to different manipulators that don't require mounting in pairs, such as an armored glove and basic manipulator or a single pair, such as a pair of Cargo Lifters
Yes?
I still don't see the confusion. It's pretty straight forward. Some must be mounted in pairs, others can be mounted alone or mixed.
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SCC

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #6 on: 09 January 2013, 06:30:39 »
Let me put it this way, I thought I could only mount ONE pair, such as armored glove and basic manipulator OR two Cargo Lifters

DarkISI

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #7 on: 09 January 2013, 06:59:29 »
You can. A human usually has only so many arms.
You are really confusing me right now.
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Paul

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #8 on: 09 January 2013, 11:21:24 »
We don't actually have any rules for BA lifting capacity or picking things up as far as I am aware of.
Not in Total warfare, not in the advanced rules, and not in the personal scale under AToW.

That's because BA lift things based on the STR of the operator, so you'd use standard Encumbrance rules. The myomers of the suit only provide an advantage to lifting stuff if you get a STR bonus, or if you use Mission Equipment to haul stuff.

BirdofPrey

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #9 on: 09 January 2013, 14:27:07 »
That falls through when you realize suits can weigh up to 2 tons and are able to posses more ground speed than the average infantryman.  I am sure strength of the operator comes into play, but the suit is still adding strength to the operator.  I suppose it's possible to design a suit that is only just capable of lifting itself and leaving everything else to the operator

Regardless, there's nowhere in the current rule set that says anything about that, so were left to guessing and house rules.  It's one of those items that someone missed, and needs errataed in (along with whether BA movement is running or walking for RPG purposes)

Paul

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #10 on: 09 January 2013, 15:10:17 »
That falls through when you realize suits can weigh up to 2 tons and are able to posses more ground speed than the average infantryman.  I am sure strength of the operator comes into play, but the suit is still adding strength to the operator.  I suppose it's possible to design a suit that is only just capable of lifting itself and leaving everything else to the operator

Bingo. The myomers effectively neutralize the mass of the suit, but they only provide additional lifting capability if they also provide an STR bonus.


Quote
Regardless, there's nowhere in the current rule set that says anything about that, so were left to guessing and house rules. 

It's very simple, there's no rules that give you enhanced lifting capability while in a BA suit, so you don't get enhanced lifting capability. It's usually not useful or desirable to list everything that's non-existent, but given how easily people get confused by this one, the issue is being reviewed for possible errata.


Quote
(along with whether BA movement is running or walking for RPG purposes)

Nice catch, we missed that, and so did everyone in the open beta. That should be covered by ATOW. I'll float a balloon.

Meanwhile, here's an unofficial answer: whenever a BA suit's movement exceeds what the unaugmented operator is capable of, it's to be considered Running movement.
Will that be the final rule? Maybe, maybe not.

Paul

SCC

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #11 on: 09 January 2013, 15:52:28 »
So I can have a pair of Cargo Lifters and a pair of Armored Gloves?

Maelwys

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #12 on: 09 January 2013, 16:27:48 »
That's pretty simple. No :)

First paragraph under "Install Manipulators" (pg 165 TM)

"Designers may install no manipulators at all, or up to two manipulators per humanoid battle armor design. Only one manipulator may be installed per arm."

And the line you quoted earlier simply states that you can mix and match modulators, unless they require pairs. So you could have a single armored glove and a heavy battle claw, but you can't have a single armored glove and cargo lifters, because the cargo lifters are required to be mounted in pairs.

BirdofPrey

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #13 on: 09 January 2013, 17:06:11 »
Bingo. The myomers effectively neutralize the mass of the suit, but they only provide additional lifting capability if they also provide an STR bonus.


It's very simple, there's no rules that give you enhanced lifting capability while in a BA suit, so you don't get enhanced lifting capability. It's usually not useful or desirable to list everything that's non-existent, but given how easily people get confused by this one, the issue is being reviewed for possible errata.
I wouldn't call it an nonexistant rule.  It's a question that has come up, and seems to already have an answer.  Just mentioning in the section on encumbrance in AToW that BA follow the same rules as regular infantry with the above reasoning is sufficient.

I should note part of my confusion is an assumption from what I have read that BA do give a strength bonus,  one of Herbs answers to one of my questions on BA even mentions skill rolls to avoid ripping someone's arm off in a rescue operation.

If you do have that errataed, be advised I am likely to put a question up in the rules forum about if BA Myomer Boosters (none of the gear in TO has any AToW stats or effects, something I hope is rectified at some point) count as strength boosting, and if so, how much.

Ignore this spot.  BoP doesn't make mistakes and overlook things, honestly.
There's also lifting gear, as far as I can see, it has no rules for lifting capacity.  The fluff says they can lift up to 2 tons followed by a bit that mentions the design can allow for lifting more.  My assumption is that you can lift a mass equal to the suit's mass with cargo lifters installed and additional mass based on suit designs is a reference to Mission Equipment (ie. cargo)


Quote
Nice catch, we missed that, and so did everyone in the open beta. That should be covered by ATOW. I'll float a balloon.

Meanwhile, here's an unofficial answer: whenever a BA suit's movement exceeds what the unaugmented operator is capable of, it's to be considered Running movement.
Will that be the final rule? Maybe, maybe not.

Paul

Part of the problem is how much you can move in each mode.  If a gray death standard can run 15 meters a second, how fast can it walk?  Conversely, if an Elemental can walk 3 meters a second, how fast can it run?

I've just been house-ruling it as the MP of a suit is it's run speed and dividing by 1.5 to get the walk.

Reading this topic on strength, though, I am having a different thought: The MP of the suit multiplies the wearer's MP.  So an Elemental (STR=7+2 RFL=4) in an Elemental (MP=1) would walk up to 14 meters  or run up to 24 meters each turn while the same man in an Aerie (MP=2) could walk up to 28 meters per turn and run up to 48 meters per turn.  I know this comes out as being a bit fast for the BA given the TW stats, but infantry themselves are faster than their TW stats (The stock standard infantry can actually run a hex and a half (TW scale) per (TW) turn and almost sprint 3 hexes, but TW rounds that to 1 hex normally and 2 hexes if using infantry hurried movement) (for the numbers, AToW archetypes gives us 20 meters per 5 seconds as a good middle number which is 40 meters in 10 seconds, and sprinting is run speed x2 while infantry hurried movement is +1 MP or +30 meters per 10 seconds
So I can have a pair of Cargo Lifters and a pair of Armored Gloves?
You can only have one 'hand' per arm.  You can have different manipulators on each arm, but each arm can only have one.
« Last Edit: 09 January 2013, 17:52:59 by BirdofPrey »

sillybrit

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #14 on: 09 January 2013, 17:49:55 »
There's also lifting gear, as far as I can see, it has no rules for lifting capacity.  The fluff says they can lift up to 2 tons followed by a bit that mentions the design can allow for lifting more.  My assumption is that you can lift a mass equal to the suit's mass with cargo lifters installed and additional mass based on suit designs is a reference to Mission Equipment (ie. cargo)

Tech Manual p166, Battle Armor Manipulator Weight Table, the note for Cargo Lifters states:

"Cargo lifter manipulators weigh 30 kilograms each for every half-ton (rounded up) of desired lifting capability."

So if you install a pair of the minimum 30kg Cargo Lifters, the suit can lift just half a ton. At the extreme end, you could have an assault suit equipped with a pair of 720kg manipulators, giving a 12 ton lifting capacity.

BirdofPrey

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #15 on: 09 January 2013, 17:55:07 »
Whoops, missed that part.
an assault suit. . . 12 ton lifting capacity.
and I shall call it the ant

Paul

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #16 on: 09 January 2013, 18:12:50 »
2 tons lifting 12? I think the fulcrum would like to have a word.

SCC

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #17 on: 09 January 2013, 18:16:27 »
Thanks Maelwys, for some reason I was reading right past that, although manipulators don't start until 166 in my copy.
Now, how do suits with Cargo Lifters pick things up? Do Cargo Lifters include Armored Gloves or Basic Manipulators?
Why stop at 12 tons?. 16 tons from 960 kg's of lifters will allow each suit to have it's own Gauss Rifle Field Gun
Actually a medium suit (1 ton) can have that many lifters (I think, it has the weight capacity)

BirdofPrey

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sillybrit

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #19 on: 09 January 2013, 21:03:48 »
Now, how do suits with Cargo Lifters pick things up?

BoP answered this above.

Quote
Do Cargo Lifters include Armored Gloves or Basic Manipulators?

No. Cargo Lifters are manipulators themselves, so they don't include other manipulators.

Quote
Why stop at 12 tons?. 16 tons from 960 kg's of lifters will allow each suit to have it's own Gauss Rifle Field Gun
Actually a medium suit (1 ton) can have that many lifters (I think, it has the weight capacity)

Also no. To lift 12 tons, that requires two 720kg Cargo Lifters, or 1440kg in total. Don't forget you also need the base chassis, which is 550kg for an IS assault, leaving just 10kg. Thus there's no way to increase capacity.

SCC

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #20 on: 09 January 2013, 21:18:54 »
Whoops, I forgot to include an extra times 2 in my calculations.

As for whole picking things up bit I was thinking more rules wise, like can they carry infantry weapons, 'cause I was thinking of Cargo Lifters as something added to increase the suits ability to lift stuff, not as straight actual manipulators, looking at that pictures I'd say the answer is only as cargo

rlbell

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Re: Constructio Question: BA Manipulators
« Reply #21 on: 09 January 2013, 21:54:53 »
Like this
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:HeavyHauler-P5000_Powerlifter.jpg

Heavy lifters need longer feet to prevent them from tipping over, a counterweight, or both.  Generally the reason that forklifts have weight limits is not structural, or even power, but balance.  A forklift rated for 4000 pounds might have a lift rack that can exert six or seven thousand pounds, but lifting beyond capacity threatens to tip it over.
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