Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT  (Read 10198 times)

False Son

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Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« on: 12 August 2013, 13:59:13 »
To fully understand this monstrous construct it is important to understand why it was meant to exist in the first place.  In the wake of the Second Succession War the Free Worlds League was in miserable shape.  Intense fighting during the first two Succession Wars and the technological decline (no doubt exaggerated by Comstar) cast the future of the FWLM in doubt.  The technology needed to build Battlemechs was drying up and believed to be in danger of extinction.  In the shadow of this crisis, Captain-General Philppa Marik charged her engineers to find a vehicular stopgap to make up for the foretold demise of the Battlemech.

And they did perform an admirable job, all things considered.  The Earthwerks team gave their design the name "Şoarece", the word for mouse in Romanian.  No doubt a dig not only at the enormous size of the tank, but possibly a RL reference to the 188 ton German Maus of WWII, as well.  A 350 rated fuel cell engine pushes the 175 Şoarece to a 2/3 movement profile.  This is slower than most assault mechs, but fast enough to move it under it's own power from one conflict zone to another.  However, unlike the Behemoth, with the same movement profile, the Şoarece was not built for purely defensive deployments.  In the long term the slow speed of the Şoarece, if successfully implemented would slow the FWLM to a crawl.  But, it is worth pointing out that if mech technology was on the decline, including the often noted rarity of fusion plants, the Fuel Cell Engine used in the Şoarece is about as good a choice as any available at the time.

To that end the designers added a limited amphibious hull.  This is a wise decision not only because of the ability to cross waterways during combat, but for strategic reasons, as well.  Any bridges capable of supporting a 175 ton tank are going to turn into high priority targets.  You can't make the backbone of your military slow and incapable of moving across water using everyday bridges.  This would present all kinds of logistical nightmares as dropships or support vehicles would be needed to ferry Şoareces from place to place.  Even though the tonnage payment for the LAH takes away from potential armaments, the Şoarece really wouldn't be possible without one.

The shortcomings of the Şoarece are complicated by the 40.5 tons of standard armor welded on all 7 (yes, 7!) hit locations.  The 110/92/92/60/110 armor configuration makes the Şoarece a difficult nut to crack from the front arc, and almost as durable on the sides.  When your weakest armor facing can survive 3 AC20 hits the goal of being well protected was clearly met.  The danger of this armor config is the amount of firepower needed to crack it.  Chances are you will be looking at vehicular crits to render your useless long before the armor gives out.  But, until that happens the Şoarece is a semi mobile bunker of mammoth proportions.  At least in terms of armor protection the designers attempted to get this part right.  Any hit location destroyed means a dead mouse.  Buckets of standard armor are about the only thing you can do in this era.

Weaponry is where the Şoarece concept truly falls flat.  The mixture of autocannons (2, 10 and 20) give the tank a variety of engagement ranges without needing tonnage eating heat sinks.  A battery of LRMs would better serve than the heavy, short ranged AC20.  The long range prospects of the Şoarece are meager after 15 hexes, meaning the PPC and LRM are going to be the greatest enemy of this tank.  The Şoarece lacks any real response to an Archer or, heck, a Manticore.  An AC20 keeps would be flankers at bay, but will seldom see use as a tool of offense.  The 2/3 movement profile will keep you from catching up to anything other than immobilized targets and fortifications.   The AC10 provides some medium ranged power and the prospect of using a ton of flachette to puree aggressive infantry that would take advantage of the Şoarece's lack of side mounted MGs.  The single front mounted MG is hardly enough to provide the Şoarece the infantry defense it needs, especially when combined with slow speed.  One of the ACs using Flachette ammo is a better answer, albeit at the expense of focusing all weapons in the infantry's direction.  The original armament of Soarecar ("Ratter" in Romanian?), the prototype version of the Şoarece had a pair of AC5s, which proved even less popular than the 175 ton production model.

The AC2 remains the Şoarece's salvation.  The extreme range and availability of flakk ammo means that the Şoarece can defend itself from the aero attacks it's huge size and slow speed will invite.  Even VTOLs will have to hold their breath before charging in.  Combine this with the Accurate Weapon quirk and you have a dead eyed sniper gun to swat airborne units down and provide token resistance to LRM and PPC armed enemies.

Using a Şoarece Superheavy MBT is a tricky prospect.  Because it is so slow it won't be doing more than assaulting fortifications, urban combat or objective defense.  Park the Şoarece at a choke point an embrace all that firepower needed to get rid of it.  The Şoarece needs to be in a position where it can continue to have LoS to an enemy after the turret locks (and chances are it will be locked, immobilized or both).  Getting the Şoarece to a road for bonus MP can be a big help, as well.  Turret twist to knock out anything that comes close with your AC20, but otherwise accept that you are largely helpless outside of 15 hexes.  The Şoarece can absorb buckets of pain while your other units exploit the lack of attention being paid to them.

Destroying a Şoarece isn't difficult.  The standard tactics for taking out combat vehicles all apply.  And that is the most frustrating part.  Even at 175 tons with the best tech the 29th century FWL could get, the Şoarece is still a combat vehicle.  Artillery, SRMs and LRMs are going to cause movement crits.  Lock the turret and the Şoarece has no way to defend itself.  Pick a location and pound away on it until the hull buckles.  Very simple.  The huge armor value of the Şoarece makes it almost certain that it will be immobilized before the armor is destroyed.

Putting the Şoarece in a pincer is a good move.  Since all of the autocannons are turret mounted you can be sure the Şoarece can only engage targets in one arc at a time.  Infantry ambushes and fast hovercraft will pay off big time.  If you don't have those kinds of units just stay at range.  The Şoarece's AC2 is the only threat outside of 15 hexes.  Now is when your Riflemans and Jagermechs make their money. 


As a concept the Şoarece is interesting.  Given the technological restraints of the the era, it isn't so bad from a design perspective.  In fact, the greatest weakness of the Şoarece is the fact that it is a 175 ton tank meant for front line combat.  That the FWLM favored the poorly designed but better performing ICE powered Ontos after the conquest of Shiro III says it all.  However, the Şoarece was ahead of it's time.  A modern adaptation would really only call for a weapon swap to make it effective.  Advanced armors would improve survival or reduce tonnage invested, but not enough to salvage the concept alone.  Thankfully the technological decline was not as severe as predicted, and FWLP even managed to stash away a few techno treasures for the day when they could be understood again.  The Şoarece never had to replace the Battlemech, as feared, which is good, because even super heavy vehicles still cannot claim to be kings of the battlefield, no matter how much gray matter is put behind them.

« Last Edit: 12 August 2013, 14:19:36 by False Son »
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #1 on: 12 August 2013, 17:30:05 »
Thanks for stepping up on this!  It's nice article.

Honestly, this is the kind of armor level where I start thinking at least a little bit about dropping a Crockett on something.  You may not kill it but it's not likely to be going anywhere after the smoke blows off.

If you're concerned about infantry, maybe attach a couple of heavy APCs with conventional infantry to your Şoarece platoon?  Motorized or jump infantry can keep up but since a Şoarece has a reasonable chance of attracting artillery fire, I want my troops under hard cover unless they're actively engaged, plus the heavy APCs' own machine guns will give them some ability to contribute to the job of keeping the enemy's infantry off your mobile bunkers.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #2 on: 12 August 2013, 17:43:53 »
If I was building it I would take a leap out of the more modern Super Heavies

Instead of the varied ACs a couple of AC2s for air Defence and a Long Tom, Thumper or Sniper take advantage of that armour and give it a bit of kick
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #3 on: 12 August 2013, 18:04:00 »
Not really my cup of tea.  On artillery units, that's just asking to get bogged down and zeroed in by enemy artillery operating in the counter-battery role.  Of course, unlike most super-heavies, a Şoarece has the armor to survive that kind of pounding for a bit.  A Paladin isn't going to fare nearly as well.

I'm not too sold on the entire super-heavy vehicle concept, though, and I'm not very fond of 2/3 vehicles to begin with, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #4 on: 12 August 2013, 19:46:45 »
Not really my cup of tea.  On artillery units, that's just asking to get bogged down and zeroed in by enemy artillery operating in the counter-battery role.  Of course, unlike most super-heavies, a Şoarece has the armor to survive that kind of pounding for a bit.  A Paladin isn't going to fare nearly as well.

The Şoarece is a bit different in that it is meant for front line combat, not supporting actions.  Being 2/3 and a huge target is fine when you are a Typo with artillery several mapsheets from the hard fighting, hauling your own infantry protection.  The Şoarece was not built like that, and it reminds me of a comment made in the Joust article.  You can only put so much armor on a tank before it is superfluous, because it will get immobilized eventually.  And, I think in the Şoarece's case, that has happened.  Some of the armor tonnage would have been better served on more weapons.

It doesn't help that the Şoarece doesn't take advantage of ignoring heat from missile weapons.  The AC20 and ammo could be swapped for a pair of LRM15s with a ton of ammo each, and you could go from there.  But, meh.  They chose ACs.  A modern weapon swap for GR, LB10X and LB2X is actually not a bad vehicle.  Not great, but ok.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #5 on: 12 August 2013, 23:51:36 »
If I was building it I would take a leap out of the more modern Super Heavies

Instead of the varied ACs a couple of AC2s for air Defence and a Long Tom, Thumper or Sniper take advantage of that armour and give it a bit of kick

I could definitely see something like this working.  Just swapping the big 20 for a Thumper would give you the ranged power to be a real problem in direct or indirect combat, and the armor means you are not going anywhere any time soon.  I would also like to get another two tons to get Machine Gun coverage in every direction with one in the turret for backup, although the artillery piece makes an effective anti-infantry weapon in a pinch.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #6 on: 13 August 2013, 00:47:42 »
Too much armor for a start, it's got more than twice the armor of an Atlas while only weighing 75% more. As for the weapons, despite people believing otherwise AC's don't actually fare that well on Vee's, too heavy for the amount of damage they do, the -20 is the only one that looks really serviceable. And the whole load flak into the AC/2 thing? You're more likely to run into one equipped with an XL engine given that the engine doesn't get used up (And putting XL's into SuperHeavy Combat Vehicles during the late Succession Wars makes a lot of sense, it's now inside the toughest armored thing buildable)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #7 on: 13 August 2013, 22:28:27 »
As the one who requested this, I gotta chime in. I love this thing mostly for the sheer fluffiness of the design, and fully accept that it's going to fall flat as an actual MBT. Then again, consider that it was replaced by the Ontos. I'll admit that twin 5-packs are heavier ranged firepower than the 2-cannon if less flexible(during the Succession Wars), but I'll gladly take an AC/10 and /20 over eight medium lasers any day, and the sheer armor of the Şoarece definitely balances out against the Ontos's speed, especially since like the Behemoth, I'd be fielding this as a defensive tank. The FWL's offensive heavy armor has never been top-rate, with the bulk of resources going to lighter scout tanks to support the 'mech and infantry forces.

(And yes, the FWLM would have been in dire straights indeed if their 'Mechs forces had actually gone extinct. Fortunately, that didn't happen.)

And the whole load flak into the AC/2 thing? You're more likely to run into one equipped with an XL engine given that the engine doesn't get used up...

I gotta ask: What on/off EARTH are you talking about here?
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SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #8 on: 14 August 2013, 00:58:12 »
Flak ammo for Autocannons has a Tech Rating/Availability of B/E-F-F while XL's have E/D-F-E, so while XL's require a higher tech base to build, during the time period the Şoarece both are about as hard to find but as the flak ammo has a self life (it gets used up) while the XL doesn't I'd say chances are that you're more likely to run into an XL engine than some Flak ammo.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #9 on: 14 August 2013, 02:29:27 »
You're more likely to run into Flak ammo than a 350 XL engine during that time period.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #10 on: 14 August 2013, 04:03:09 »
It is rather sad that the FWLM doesn´t get a modern version of its own SuperHeavy. Preferably including tube artillery or even better artillery cannons.

Yes, we could import. But...it is not the same.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #11 on: 14 August 2013, 05:27:47 »
Still, an upgrade with an XL engine wouldn't be too far a stretch.
You're not that likely to ever lose it, after all; By the time it gets there, the war might be over already.
Were Thumpers sufficiently available back when?
That sounded like a good upgrade to me, too.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #12 on: 14 August 2013, 06:39:44 »
What book is this behemoth in? Great article btw :)
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #13 on: 14 August 2013, 06:52:47 »
What book is this behemoth in? Great article btw :)

From the Sarna.net entry it's XTRO: Succession Wars, Volume 1
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #14 on: 14 August 2013, 08:28:54 »
Too much armor for a start, it's got more than twice the armor of an Atlas while only weighing 75% more.

The thing with the Şoarece is the temptation to compare it to a mech because of it's zie and intended role.  But, an Atlas can survive the loss of an arm or leg.  A tank is only as durable as the hit location that is hit the most.  In the case of the Şoarece, it is going to be the immobilized and drilled on an aimed hit location until dead.  So, huge armor capacity is the only solution.  Finding the right balance is important, and I think the designers did themselves no favors making the Şoarece a superheavy vehicle with 2 more hit locations.  The Atlas also has more internal structure, and mech crits tend to be less fatal than vehicular ones, ammo hits being the exception in CASEless designs.

Quote
As for the weapons, despite people believing otherwise AC's don't actually fare that well on Vee's, too heavy for the amount of damage they do, the -20 is the only one that looks really serviceable. And the whole load flak into the AC/2 thing? You're more likely to run into one equipped with an XL engine given that the engine doesn't get used up (And putting XL's into SuperHeavy Combat Vehicles during the late Succession Wars makes a lot of sense, it's now inside the toughest armored thing buildable)

I can shrug the availability of both, to be honest.  The flakk ammo doesn't require a refit, and for simplicity's sake is a quick and easy change.  The XLE however is not even more at a premium than the lifespan of the flakk ammo.  Vehicles are more prone to criticals, including engine destruction.  XLEs would be saved for battlemechs.  This was the era in which standard fusion engines were bing stripped out of tanks for mech use.  Though, in reality, because all the weapons are turret mounted, it isn't a great idea to swivel over to shoot at an ASF and risk being locked.

Still, an upgrade with an XL engine wouldn't be too far a stretch.
You're not that likely to ever lose it, after all; By the time it gets there, the war might be over already.
Were Thumpers sufficiently available back when?
That sounded like a good upgrade to me, too.

You're more likely to lose the XLE in the Şoarece than a mech, so save it for a 70 tonner you want to move 5/8.

And there isn't much of a point to putting a Thumper on the Şoarece.  FWL was producing the Thumper Artillery Vehicle during this time, and in huge numbers.  What they lacked was a line tank after the 2nd Succession War.  If you think about it, what domestically produced heavy or assault tanks are the FWLM buying in this era?  The Partisan.  Another artillery vehicle isn't going to do it.  The Ontos, for all it's flaws still has a fairly flexible range of configurations in the Succession Wars and doesn't require the special considerations of a superheavy vehicle.

So, for my money, in the Succession Wars era it needs LRMs.  That will give it some range and the ability to somewhat overcome the slow speed with indirect fire.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #15 on: 14 August 2013, 10:09:24 »
I think as a Maus equivalent, it works pretty well (with some improvements and some of the same flaws). ;D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #16 on: 14 August 2013, 14:07:19 »
And there isn't much of a point to putting a Thumper on the Şoarece.  FWL was producing the Thumper Artillery Vehicle during this time, and in huge numbers.  What they lacked was a line tank after the 2nd Succession War.  If you think about it, what domestically produced heavy or assault tanks are the FWLM buying in this era?  The Partisan.  Another artillery vehicle isn't going to do it.  The Ontos, for all it's flaws still has a fairly flexible range of configurations in the Succession Wars and doesn't require the special considerations of a superheavy vehicle.

So, for my money, in the Succession Wars era it needs LRMs.  That will give it some range and the ability to somewhat overcome the slow speed with indirect fire.

When I first suggested the Thumper, my thinking was actually more centered around direct fire to work with its AC 10 and let it contend effectively with PPC-armed opponents.  Indirect fire would mostly be used to make it a threat to LRM-armed campers so they would have to sacrifice accuracy and good firing positions which would ruin their accuracy and buy the brick time to roll into range of its other guns.  It would also go a long way in making up for the lack of integral anti-infantry firepower in the unlikely event that you do not have friendly infantry to watch your back.

Really the only time I would use it for traditional artillery work is either when the enemy is in full retreat because you are not catching them any other way, or when you are holding a position and the enemy is refusing to come deal with you directly.  If you are moving to engage the enemy, the big guy should be advancing as fast as it can manage which is probably going to make the tube uselessly inaccurate.
« Last Edit: 14 August 2013, 14:08:50 by Diablo48 »


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #17 on: 14 August 2013, 17:50:38 »
I can shrug the availability of both, to be honest.  The flakk ammo doesn't require a refit, and for simplicity's sake is a quick and easy change.  The XLE however is not even more at a premium than the lifespan of the flakk ammo.  Vehicles are more prone to criticals, including engine destruction.  XLEs would be saved for battlemechs.  This was the era in which standard fusion engines were bing stripped out of tanks for mech use.  Though, in reality, because all the weapons are turret mounted, it isn't a great idea to swivel over to shoot at an ASF and risk being locked.

You're more likely to lose the XLE in the Şoarece than a mech, so save it for a 70 tonner you want to move 5/8.
Last time I checked 0MP != immobile so the -4 to-hit modifier doesn't apply

And given how tough the Şoarece is it will take a lot of work to take that XL, think about the time period again, no CASE

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #18 on: 14 August 2013, 19:07:55 »
If you really want to keep a 350 XLE online, your best bet is a 50 ton medium.  It is fast enough to be hard to hit, tough enough to take some work to bring down, and has enough free weight to carry a substantial arsenal (50 tons is optimal for 7/11/X with a XLE).  I wold also pile on the jets because it will be very hard for the enemy to pin down and kill at 7/11/7 which is a much bigger concern because they will be perfectly happy to sacrifice a horde of cheap junk to bring down a heavily armored target so the ability to get away is more important than raw armor.

Besides, this whole discussion is irrelevant given that the whole reason the tank was built was to have something to take over as irreplaceable war machines were destroyed so building it with irreplaceable equipment like XLEs is counterproductive.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #19 on: 15 August 2013, 04:03:32 »
It is rather sad that the FWLM doesn´t get a modern version of its own SuperHeavy. Preferably including tube artillery or even better artillery cannons.

Yes, we could import. But...it is not the same.

At least now they have the best heavy tanks, which is a switch from none/crap.  Hard to be the Moltke and the Merkava Mk IX is not bad.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #20 on: 15 August 2013, 09:28:07 »
Well, we could get a FWL classic upgrade?
Replace the AC 20 and AC 10 with dual LGRs for epic "Well, that didn't work out so well" :P.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #21 on: 18 August 2013, 21:52:20 »
I also love the Şoarece Superheavy MBT concept for a desperate Succession Wars era power such as the Free Worlds League trying built a trump card that didn't quite work, but least they built them.

I can understand why the autocannon approach was taken, Atreus was home of autocannon producer.  Why won't you want to built something with guns you can make locally?  Missile boats during the Succession Wars, such as 'Mechs usually had shallow ammo bays.   The Şoarece didn't quite have that problem, though i'm at lost wise (without building one with vehicle designer program) it didn't have more than one of the same autocannon?  Would that had made it more successful instead of the failure it was?  Twin AC/10s and 2s would been more helpful.  There must been plenty of room in that thing for other weapons, such as Machine Guns for all of its complicated arcs...unless that was the reason for it being only turret mounted weapons.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #22 on: 18 August 2013, 23:58:25 »
honestly, the impression i've gotten is that this would have worked better as a supporting unit for non-superheavy tanks. loading the 2 and 10 with flack ammo would have made it a nasty anti-aircraft platform, and its tough enough that only aircraft strikes could hope to bring it down quick. assign a lance of these to support a battalion of conventional tanks and you could devote more of your regular tanks to direct combat. not unlike the p.1000 Ratte Nazi germany was designing near the end of WW2.. the thousand ton 'land cruiser' intended to bring massive artillery support to the field, and which would have been paired up with entire companies of Tanks. while this tank is more closely related to the german Maus in size, the idea of a superheavy supporting unit working in tandem with conventional armored units seems to fit.

i do agree though the AC20 is a lot of weight to devote to a weapon that will see little use. perhaps swapping out for a Thumper Artillery piece would have made more sense. that would have firmly established it as a supporting unit as well.
« Last Edit: 19 August 2013, 00:02:46 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #23 on: 05 September 2013, 06:17:35 »
As silly as it sounds, I would be inclined to go a different route and mount the AC-20 and triple AC-2s instead. Two tons of ammo for the light guns, two to four tons for the heavy gun (depending on how much use you expect to get from a bubble of doom gun here, and you will have to scrape a bit of armor even so), and the current MGs.

It advances steadily of slowly, plinking away, and if immobilized, it keeps right on plinking away so long as the turret does get locked or blown away. Someone wanders too close, you hit them upside their noggins with the boom stick, and others aren't so ready to close in any longer. It isn't ideal, but its better than the AC-Full House they have going on now.

Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #24 on: 05 September 2013, 06:23:24 »
...It isn't ideal, but its better than the AC-Full House they have going on now.

This makes me want to figure out a way to wedge an AC-5 in there somehow just to say it has one of each.


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kenahk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #25 on: 05 September 2013, 06:50:17 »
Is it an added bonus to add armoured motive system to this baby in more modern times?

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #26 on: 05 September 2013, 08:50:32 »
Well, that's 26.5 tons.
Then it's completely out of weapons....
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kenahk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #27 on: 05 September 2013, 08:55:30 »
Okay, thank you for the clarification.  O0 Is there a way to do a Superheavy without it becoming a mobile support platform which can get critted very soon? Sort of like what they were trying to with the Soarece, but in the currect timeline and effective?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #28 on: 05 September 2013, 08:58:35 »
My advice would be LRMs or artillery, to allow it to keep firing on units it can't catch. Keep the light AC for flak work.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Şoarece Superheavy MBT
« Reply #29 on: 05 September 2013, 09:21:45 »
Okay, thank you for the clarification.  O0 Is there a way to do a Superheavy without it becoming a mobile support platform which can get critted very soon? Sort of like what they were trying to with the Soarece, but in the currect timeline and effective?

Not really.  As stated, the armored motive is going to cost a great deal of tonnage.  Your best bet is likely to use the vehicle effectiveness rules in TacOps and hope for the best.  Modern weaponry presents you with LBX cluster shots and Inferno Arrow IV rounds, which will hurt.  Not sure how Hull Down works with superheavy tanks.  Maybe that would work.
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