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Author Topic: Hidden Worlds  (Read 17689 times)

Stinger

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Hidden Worlds
« on: 27 November 2013, 15:54:33 »
Okay, in another recent thread, Oystein got me thinking.  He said this:

There are some exceptions to the rules, yes. But all of the five Hidden worlds *have* been shown on maps, people just haven't been able to figure out where they are.

With regards,
Øystein

The question is, can we find them?  I kinda of take this as a challenge.  Which planets have disappeared? Especially ones that were in recent Star League books that aren't in our new 3145 books.

Dragon41673

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #1 on: 27 November 2013, 15:56:51 »
Look in older Fasa printed books with maps...you'll probably find them there, but I have not looked myself. If not...work your way up through the releases by the year they were published...that would be the easiest way of finding them.
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Archangel

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #2 on: 27 November 2013, 17:09:07 »
There are two problems that complicates tracking them down.  One is that the name that appears on the map may not be the name the Blake use and two, the hidden "world" may not be a world at all.  As Dr Cortland stated during his interrogation they could be anything or anywhere as proven by the Ruins of Gabriel.
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Deadborder

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #3 on: 27 November 2013, 17:25:50 »
Based on Cortland's ramblings and my own theories, I've IDed several worlds that could be Obedean and Taussen. I'm also probably wrong.
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Kojak

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #4 on: 27 November 2013, 17:28:06 »
Based on Cortland's ramblings and my own theories, I've IDed several worlds that could be Obedean and Taussen. I'm also probably wrong.

Well, I for one would be interested to see what you've come up with (along with your methodology).
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Sellsword

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #5 on: 27 November 2013, 18:43:17 »
Well, I for one would be interested to see what you've come up with (along with your methodology).

I second that!

roosterboy

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #6 on: 27 November 2013, 18:56:56 »
Look in older Fasa printed books with maps...you'll probably find them there,

They are worlds that are supposed to have died off during the early Succession Wars; FASA never published maps in that era.

Stinger

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #7 on: 27 November 2013, 20:40:57 »
I tried to use Oystein's maps from his website (PDFs for 3025 and 3063), then used GIMP to create png images of them at 100ppi.

Then I loaded them into Matlab, and and created a grayscale of each map.  From there, I made the 3025 map red and the 3063 map blue, and then overlaid them on each other.  If a planet was the same, it would appear purple.  Otherwise, there would be a distinct red dot and blue dot.

Interestingly enough, a few worlds "moved".  This could have been errata, but definitely some planets seemed to move.  Teniente was one, though I doubt it was a hidden world.  There were one or two others, but they all seemed unlikely for hidden worlds, after double checking on sarna.

I would like to try again using a 2750 map, but I don't think Oystein's website had a 2750 map.

I think comparing 2750 to 3063 might reveal some info...

Archangel

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #8 on: 27 November 2013, 23:01:34 »
They are worlds that are supposed to have died off during the early Succession Wars; FASA never published maps in that era.

But FanPro did.
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YingJanshi

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #9 on: 27 November 2013, 23:30:21 »
But FanPro did.

They did?  ??? In what books?


You might look at the Liberation of Terra books...

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Kojak

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #10 on: 27 November 2013, 23:31:21 »
They did?  ??? In what books?

The House Handbooks.
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YingJanshi

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #11 on: 27 November 2013, 23:49:38 »
The House Handbooks.

Ah. Was thinking those were all CGL. My mistake. Carry on. [blank]

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The Hawk

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #12 on: 28 November 2013, 02:42:10 »
Then I loaded them into Matlab, and and created a grayscale of each map.  From there, I made the 3025 map red and the 3063 map blue, and then overlaid them on each other.  If a planet was the same, it would appear purple.  Otherwise, there would be a distinct red dot and blue dot.

Interestingly enough, a few worlds "moved".  This could have been errata, but definitely some planets seemed to move.  Teniente was one, though I doubt it was a hidden world.  There were one or two others, but they all seemed unlikely for hidden worlds, after double checking on sarna.

Interesting project, but this procedure wouldn't show you any of the Hidden so far as we know; all indications are that they would have been planets colonized in the pre-Succession Wars period that died off during (or before) the Succession Wars.  No such planets are known to have reappeared on maps between 3025 and 3063, AFAIK. 

Apparent motions are presumably the result of different data, but it's doubtful the stars in question are actually moving in a fashion that would significantly affect their map position in the 38 years between your two data points.  Even if the changes were intentional, however, I cannot imagine why that would signify them being, or being near, hidden worlds. 

PsihoKekec

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #13 on: 28 November 2013, 02:54:39 »
Ruins of Gabriel for example has always been on the maps as part of the Odessa system. The other three are either officially dead and renamed systems like Jardine/Heraklion, or did the Comstar pull some other trick.
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Blacknova

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #14 on: 28 November 2013, 03:14:25 »
Dread Mores and I had a chat about this somewhere here, but I can't find the thread. However, the main parts of it are covered here:
http://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/general-discussion/the-hidden/

I attached a map to the first post show the assumptions made.
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marauder648

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #15 on: 28 November 2013, 04:02:54 »
Wasn't the Erynies one of the 'hidden' or was she just a mobile WMD who's ultimate fate remains unknown.
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martian

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #16 on: 28 November 2013, 04:53:08 »
Wasn't the Erynies one of the 'hidden' or was she just a mobile WMD who's ultimate fate remains unknown.

The WoBS Erinyes is a modified Newgrange-class yardship.

ipopal

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #17 on: 28 November 2013, 04:58:42 »
More important question is whether anyone still lives on the Hidden Worlds.

marauder648

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #18 on: 28 November 2013, 04:59:19 »
The WoBS Erinyes is a modified Newgrange-class yardship.

Aye I know that, I thought she was still classed as one of the hidden though, mainly due to the massive size of her, her repair and refit capabilities and of course her Mass Driver.
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martian

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #19 on: 28 November 2013, 05:33:22 »
Aye I know that, I thought she was still classed as one of the hidden though, mainly due to the massive size of her, her repair and refit capabilities and of course her Mass Driver.

No, The Hidden are planets or planetoids or similar locations.

Deadborder

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #20 on: 28 November 2013, 06:09:23 »
Well, I for one would be interested to see what you've come up with (along with your methodology).

My methodology was based on knowing the names of three of the Hidden Worlds/Systems; Jardine/Herakleion, Odessa/Gabriel and Tangerez/Mayadi.

I printed off the full 2750 Inner Sphere map from the PDF of ER2750 and located these three systems. Drawing straight lines between the three known worlds, I noted that it was ~290 LY from Jardine to Odessa, and another ~290 LY from Odessa to Tangerez. From that I took the wild mass guessing of saying that Tagerez to "Taussen" was another ~290 LY, that Jardine to "Obedeah" is also ~290 LY and that finally, "Taussen" to "Obedeah" is also ~290 LY

From there using a pencil, compass and a lot of sweat, I came up with a clump of potential worlds in each state that they could be. I eliminated a few based on names and when they vanished to get a shortlist.

(Blacknova did more or less the same thing at the same time to get the same results, but he punted his out as a document rather then my scribbling notes on the back my hand)

By my guess, "Taussen" could be Korvitz or Maison, both worlds that died in the first SW (ie, about the same time as Jardine and Tangerez.) or possibly Lynchburg or Quimper, though those two are 3rd SW casualties.

"Obedeah" could be Bhykov, Runrig or Tunlmar, all of which died in the 1st or 2nd SW. There's also Sharpe which was a 3rd SW loss and again likely too late. Interestingly, this would mean that it was inside the CC throughout.

Or I am entirely wrong and being laughed at.
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Nargrakhan

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #21 on: 28 November 2013, 07:16:19 »
Aye I know that, I thought she was still classed as one of the hidden though, mainly due to the massive size of her, her repair and refit capabilities and of course her Mass Driver.

No, The Hidden are planets or planetoids or similar locations.

The Erinyes makes new hidden worlds by destroying them.  :D

PsihoKekec

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #22 on: 28 November 2013, 13:51:32 »
Cunning
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #23 on: 28 November 2013, 19:45:27 »
I have a theory on Obeedah.  I'm guessingit's near Kittery.  Two cluespoint to this.  First, it is stated in one book that the Laio world may now be in Davion space (as of 3079).  Second, that the Blakists koved to take over that world early in the war, despite it being so far from their primary bases of operation.  Other such worlds they moved against at the time they just wrecked with WMDs, but Kittery they seemed to occupy and tried to rule.  Tells me there was something there they wanted.

Thus, Obeedah must be near Kittery, or perhaps(caution: wild speculation begins here) it is even on Kittery, lime a hidden community or something.
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Deadborder

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #24 on: 28 November 2013, 20:05:40 »
I have a theory on Obeedah.  I'm guessingit's near Kittery.  Two cluespoint to this.  First, it is stated in one book that the Laio world may now be in Davion space (as of 3079).  Second, that the Blakists koved to take over that world early in the war, despite it being so far from their primary bases of operation.  Other such worlds they moved against at the time they just wrecked with WMDs, but Kittery they seemed to occupy and tried to rule.  Tells me there was something there they wanted.

Thus, Obeedah must be near Kittery, or perhaps(caution: wild speculation begins here) it is even on Kittery, lime a hidden community or something.

The worlds I've pinpointed as being possible locations for Obeedah are near Kittery; IIRC it falls just outside my "search area"

Hmmmmmm
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #25 on: 28 November 2013, 20:14:48 »
Yeah, I brought up a map I found showin gthe lost wor!ds added to the current color map.  And saw one of your choices right next to Kittery.  Didn't see the othwr two. Still, maybe it means we're onto something.
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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #26 on: 29 November 2013, 03:27:16 »
I have a theory on Obeedah.  I'm guessingit's near Kittery.  Two cluespoint to this.  First, it is stated in one book that the Laio world may now be in Davion space (as of 3079).

Logic Flaw #1:  From the fall of the Star League to 3079, House Liao lost a lot of systems to the Federated Suns and the Free Worlds League not just Kittery.  It could be in any of those systems or in none of them.  Nothing provides any evidence that Kittery is or is not the system.

Quote
Second, that the Blakists koved to take over that world early in the war, despite it being so far from their primary bases of operation.  Other such worlds they moved against at the time they just wrecked with WMDs, but Kittery they seemed to occupy and tried to rule.  Tells me there was something there they wanted.

Thus, Obeedah must be near Kittery, or perhaps(caution: wild speculation begins here) it is even on Kittery, lime a hidden community or something.

Logic Flaw #2:  Those ComStar and Word of Blake leaders aware of the Hidden Worlds existence have always taken excessive precautions to avoid drawing too much attention to those systems or allowing word of their location to spread.  Seizing the system one of them was in would have been counterproductive.  Somebody might have accidentally stumbled upon it, either by Word of Blake Militia while attempting to secure the system or anti-Blakist forces while doing recon, conducting a raid or assaulting the system.  If the systems were that important that they retain control, they would have take extra steps to retain control or moved to recapture them, but they didn't.  Instead they allowed Stone and his undisciplined group of rebels to seize control of the Kittery district worlds.  Also don't forget that the Word of Blake made no effort to seize control of the Odessa system.
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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #27 on: 29 November 2013, 21:54:29 »
Hi,

Real Name vs. Shown Name
Ruins of Gabriel  is Odessa (LC)
Jardine is Heraklion (FWL)
Obeedah is Sharpe (CC)
Taussen is Versailles (FS)
Mayadi is Tangerz (DC)

By 3100, Jardine, Gabriel, and Mayadi were found (and all destroyed: Jardine by traps volcano, Gabriel was shattered completely, and Mayadai had poisoned itself at least a century prior). The others were never found.

Thanks,

- Herb

talonspiritcat

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #28 on: 29 November 2013, 22:47:36 »
All the hunting and mystery and Herb just hands them to us?   :o. Did I miss something?
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Hidden Worlds
« Reply #29 on: 29 November 2013, 23:21:55 »
Well, if he is telling the truth, I was almost right.  Sharpe is close to Kittery.
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