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Author Topic: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II  (Read 7932 times)

sillybrit

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Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« on: 29 December 2013, 01:25:27 »
Fenrir II Assault Battle Armor - Technical Readout 3145 Lyran Commonwealth page 9



     The largest of the new Lyran suits introduced in the Technical Readout 3145 series, the Fenrir II is the answer to many players' prayers: a Fenrir that can actually survive a hit or two.

     A number of factors come together in jymset's redesign of the classic glass hammer, with the first being a rules change that altered how turrets are treated. Previously a quad suit had comparatively little slot space, especially if it wanted to have a configurable armament. Not only were designers required to reduce the suit's slot capacity by the size of the turret but also they had to pay an additional price in slots for the turret mechanism itself, on top of the mass cost. Thanks to some much needed errata, now only the turret mechanism slots have to be deducted from the suit's capacity, with the turret space being additional volume. One key benefit of this is that it makes fitting of non-standard armors much more viable alongside a decent armament.

     The Fenrir II takes advantage of this by switched to Advanced Armor, saving it 20% of the mass that would be required to use standard materials instead. Sadly, from a cosmetic point of view, the new assault quad doesn't mount the maximum protection possible, but seventeen points is still a formidable level of armor. Obviously it allows the suit to eat a Gauss Rifle hit and keep on ticking, which is as good as it gets in battle armor terms. When the armor point representing the trooper is added in, this means that the Fenrir II has triple the protection of the original Fenrir, for less than triple the mass.

     jymset: To say that "seventeen points is still a formidable level of armor" is the understatement of the century. I am only aware of 2 BA in existence that have more armour, and both of them are slower. The decisions made regarding the weapon payload (see below) left quite a lot of mass for the improved armour and motive system. The most obvious flaw of the Fenrir I is its high movement and laughable armour, both worthy of light suits. Knowing this is an assault battlesuit, what is a more desireable Mk II upgrade, mvmt 4 and 13 pts or mvmt 3 and 17 pts? That decision was made in no time!

     Unfortunately, that mass had to come from somewhere, and that meant that the mobility and armament had to pay the cost. The speed was min/maxed at three Movement Points, which still allows the suit to generate a +1 Target Movement Modifier like its forebear, while saving a small chunk of mass. Part of this was eaten up by the bulkier turret, which has double the volume of the Fenrir's, which meant that the majority of the weight saving needed to increase the armor had to come from the weapon payload.

     The original Fenrir was known for its hefty 800kg turret capacity, which just happened to match the mass required by an ER Medium Laser or Medium Pulse Laser, the largest weapons carried by the Lyran's first quad. Conveniently enough, the Fenrir II's payload also happens to match that of a single heavyweight weapon, in the form of the 500kg Medium Laser. One would almost think it was planned that way! Matching the damage of the original's ER laser, but at two-thirds the range, or reduced damage and accuracy at 50% more range, the Medium Laser isn't a bad step down. Indeed, many suits would be more than happy to mount such a weapon, and it forms the core armament of a number of suits reaching back to the Kanazuchi.

     Obviously, with a 300kg lighter weapon load, the Fenrir II is going to suffer some reductions in firepower, but it makes up for that as much as possible in configuration choices and Clan technology. The twin Medium Recoilless Rifles provide the Fenrir II with a formidable multi-purpose setup. With heavy anti-infantry firepower combined with multiple three-point hits out to six hexes, this configuration is equally at home shooting PBIs, other battle armor, vehicles and ’Mechs, although for the latter you ideally want them already softened up for possible crit seeking hits. Notably, this configuration will be very useful if you're up against some of the Combine's new Reflective armor designs, such as the Zou.

     The other three configurations all take advantage of Clantech, and it's perhaps the first that will have most battle armor players drooling. A quad array of LRM tubes loaded with ten shots of ammo each gives the LCAF a fire support battlesuit that can put the Hauberk to shame with the duration of its bombardments. Yes, the damage per salvo will be a little less, but being able to fire for an additional four Turns more than makes up for that. Added to that, the Fenrir II's Clan LRMs have no minimum range, which means that an enemy can't attempt to duck under the fire by getting in close; all that will do is make it easier for the Fenrir II to kill them! Personally, I'd say that this option alone more than makes up for the loss of range suffered by the laser configuration.

     The Fenrir's SRM configuration has been massively improved thanks to Clan technology. Not only has an extra tube been added, meaning that a four-suit squad can throw no less than twenty missiles downrange, but the magazine space has increased by 50%. This setup is absolute murder for vehicles and ’Mechs short on armor thanks to the hail of possible crits, with the latter also having to worry about piloting checks from even average Cluster rolls. This means that the Fenrir II is also able to compete with the Grenadier in SRM terms, with more damage per salvo than the Standard variant but one less shot, while matching the damage and outlasting the Hunter Killer. It's worth noting that even if the LCAF tried to transplant the Clan launchers to the Fenrir, the smaller turret would force fewer tubes and/or missiles.

     jymset: In reply to the above, from a designer's perspective, the most inefficient thing about the Fenrir was its MTM. 800 kg with 3 slots allow you to mount exactly the 2 big lasers and nothing else. Its SRM variant wastes 400 kg, its MG variant 500! The objective was to install a more realistic weapon mount with more slots. The excellent IS Medium Laser, possibly one of the finest "big" BA weapons in existence, was a nice weight benchmark. The XTRO Fenrir "Longshot" certainly suggested at TharHes trying to work on Clan missiles, so it was a given that the Fenrir II would cross that mixed tech border for those weapons.

     For the final configuration, the Fenrir II mounts a mixed bag, combining a pair of Bearhunters with a pair of Machine Guns. That makes this setup very short ranged compared to the others, but the four weapons makes this another possible crit seeker. I do find it amusing that the Lyrans have stolen a march on their ex-FedCom partners by beating them to Clantech autocannons for their battlesuits, but I'm sure many Suns players won't be that upset due to the known issues with the Bearhunters. They do suffer from horrible accuracy and range, which puts them on the Do Not Want list for many, despite their ability to do horrible things to other battle armor. The combination of guns will also shred conventional infantry, but personally I'd prefer the greater range of the Recoilless Rifle configuration if I was to go hunting PBIs. Of course, the Fenrir II now has the armor to soak up any fire it might receiver while running up to a platoon to deliver some bad news, so some players might not want to stay as stuck in their ways as I am.

     jymset: That rationale also applies when the Fenrir II is hunting BA. Most other dangerous suits which potentially outrange it cannot outgun it. And it will weather some 2-3 volleys of even the most determined foe until it closes into knife-fighting range where its dual bearhunters will take a terrible toll on its foes (assuming they hit!). As such, this is the most genuine "anti-infantry" configuration of any battle armor, when viewed in an inclusive sense.

     Although no non-weapon options are shown, the Fenrir II does have more than enough capacity to mount a variety of electronics and other systems, while still packing some heat for self-defense. A C3 scout would be more than feasible, as would one loaded with an Active Probe or Angel ECM. By exploiting Clantech further it would be possible to mount multiple systems, with a TAG, Probe and ECM combo being one delightful possibility.

     I have to say that the Fenrir II is just as ugly a suit as its parent design. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with Plog's art, don't get me wrong, he's done his usual superb work. It's just that the Fenrir series is never going to win a beauty contest as it's a hideous quad. (I had to get a dig in despite my attempts not to do so!) (jymset: This once I'll have to let that jab slide, on account of agreeing.) The Fenrir II does give an impression of being lighter in my eyes; the design looks sleeker, which is something that I attribute to it being a more advanced design.

     Still, looks matter little on the battlefield and there the Fenrir II is clearly a winner. Sure, it's slower and has a lighter payload than the Fenrir, but the improvement in protection is just overwhelming, while some of its weapon options are superior. Like other suits with a high ground speed, it's going to be a natural in cities and other confined areas. That sort of environment can go a long way in helping the Bearhunter/Machine Gun configuration get up close and personal.

     If the Fenrir II suffers a flaw, it's that it's now going to become an Inferno magnet. The armor is so much tougher that Infernos are going to be the most efficient method to kill them for most combatants. It's a real pity that the Lyrans advances in battle armor production didn't extend to copying the Fire Resistant armor fielded by the Jade Falcons and, more recently, the DCMS. Artillery cannon are likely to be another option favored by those that have to regularly face Fenrir IIs, but I don't think that Reactive armor would have been a good alternative given the extra mass required. Dropping the armor to eleven points just to make it more resistant to area effect weapons (and missiles) would not have been a good bargain, as it would have cost the ability to resist Gauss hits and made it more vulnerable to accumulated damage from lighter weaponry.

     Overall, the Fenrir II is a solid upgrade. Some might bemoan the loss of payload, but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages in my opinion, making the suit a much better performer. No longer do you have to treat the Fenrir as effectively a one-shot weapon, with anything beyond the first salvo being an extra treat. The Fenrir II is now a battlesuit that can happily stand its ground on the frontlines, duking it out with all from ’Mechs down to infantry.
« Last Edit: 25 June 2014, 23:46:51 by sillybrit »

Wrangler

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #1 on: 29 December 2013, 08:52:40 »
Thank you for writing this up, sillybrit/jymset.   I like how you guys reasoning why Fenrir of old went wrong and point why new model is improvement over it and how.  Thanks guys!
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #2 on: 29 December 2013, 19:48:33 »
Fun, tough suit.  I've used it once as a body guard and absorbed an near alpha strike form an Arctic Wolf.  The Wolf player asked me after finishing up all the billion rolls who was dead.  I laughed and said, "no one.  All you did was piss them off!" and proceeded to lay some LRM's into him.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #3 on: 30 December 2013, 13:01:15 »
Not much needs to be said about the Fenrir II- its pretty much the best assault suit, solving issues with speed as rationally as it can while mounting enough space for adequate guns.  The only for it to be better would be to give it clan armor, but that would be pushing the envelope too far on a unit using clan missile launchers.

I second the idea of Battle armor C3, tho- this seems like one of the few suits that could use the system well without too heavy a loss in firepower.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #4 on: 30 December 2013, 20:32:40 »
The only for it to be better would be to give it clan armor, but that would be pushing the envelope too far on a unit using clan missile launchers.

Why not?  Other Inner Sphere suits are already using Clan-grade armor, so I don't see why they couldn't have used it on the Fenrir II when they clearly have access to Clan technology.   They could have made it a Wolf-in-Exile variant, or maybe just something that was produced on Arc-Royal by a subsdiary of Arc-Royal Mechworks.
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sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #5 on: 30 December 2013, 22:58:47 »
Why not?  Other Inner Sphere suits are already using Clan-grade armor, so I don't see why they couldn't have used it on the Fenrir II when they clearly have access to Clan technology. 

Because of a little thing called game balance. Canon designs in particular typically avoid exploiting every possible advantage, and adding Clan armor on top of the existing Clan weapons would simply be too much. Clan battlesuits get lighter armor as compensation for their much heavier chassis, so adding the lighter Clan armor to the lighter Inner Sphere chassis would give the Fenrir II too much of an advantage over other designs given that it was being min/maxed in other aspects.

Canon suits which do mix an Inner Sphere chassis with Clan armor will generally tend towards less efficient features or non-Clantech in other areas of their design. For example, you'll probably never see a canon version of an upgraded IS Standard loaded up with 10 pts Fire Resistant armor, an AP Gauss and other Clan equipment to fill out the gaps, whereas a GD Scout with 5pts Clan Imp Stealth and an added Power Pack is perfectly acceptable for a canon-style upgrade. There will be exceptions, but typically not to the level than a Clantech armored Fenrir II would be.

Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #6 on: 31 December 2013, 08:16:51 »
Here's hoping for a Fenrir IIC then   O0
« Last Edit: 31 December 2013, 15:47:26 by Lazarus Jaguar »
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #7 on: 31 December 2013, 10:38:53 »
Because of a little thing called game balance. Canon designs in particular typically avoid exploiting every possible advantage, and adding Clan armor on top of the existing Clan weapons would simply be too much. Clan battlesuits get lighter armor as compensation for their much heavier chassis, so adding the lighter Clan armor to the lighter Inner Sphere chassis would give the Fenrir II too much of an advantage over other designs given that it was being min/maxed in other aspects.

Canon suits which do mix an Inner Sphere chassis with Clan armor will generally tend towards less efficient features or non-Clantech in other areas of their design. For example, you'll probably never see a canon version of an upgraded IS Standard loaded up with 10 pts Fire Resistant armor, an AP Gauss and other Clan equipment to fill out the gaps, whereas a GD Scout with 5pts Clan Imp Stealth and an added Power Pack is perfectly acceptable for a canon-style upgrade. There will be exceptions, but typically not to the level than a Clantech armored Fenrir II would be.

Looking at it "in universe", it doesn't really make sense to go through all the trouble of redesigning something, and not using all the resources that you have access to at your disposal to improve it.  What (in universe) weapon designer goes "okay this is getting too powerful now, how can I tone it down so I can give the other guy a fighting chance"?  If it was a custom design from salvaged Clan parts, I'd understand how it can be mix and match, or if it was from a faction with limited Clan contact, but from a dedicated manufacturer with links to a "pet" Clan not to take full advantage of his Clan tech access, it doesn't make sense not to go all out with all the Clan stuff.
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #8 on: 31 December 2013, 15:50:31 »
That the Lyrans actually did go all outalready in the same book with the Cucu makes it even less sensical
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sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #9 on: 31 December 2013, 16:51:48 »
Looking at it "in universe", it doesn't really make sense to go through all the trouble of redesigning something, and not using all the resources that you have access to at your disposal to improve it.  What (in universe) weapon designer goes "okay this is getting too powerful now, how can I tone it down so I can give the other guy a fighting chance"?  If it was a custom design from salvaged Clan parts, I'd understand how it can be mix and match, or if it was from a faction with limited Clan contact, but from a dedicated manufacturer with links to a "pet" Clan not to take full advantage of his Clan tech access, it doesn't make sense not to go all out with all the Clan stuff.

Again, game balance. We're not in universe, we're playing a game.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #10 on: 31 December 2013, 19:37:48 »
Again, game balance. We're not in universe, we're playing a game.
It's not, technically, game balance.

Game balance violation is introducing something that breaks a game by being extremely overpowered and only available to some players, or available to all and completely necessary to win.

Making some units much better than others is only a problem if the available balancing systems don't handle it - and BV (as far as it manages) handles that.

The game balance problem is that the equipment used to build the units isn't balanced, meaning that the number of optimized units is quite small. That's why many (most?) people who don't use BV modify the rules in some way to balance things better.

Marveryn

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #11 on: 31 December 2013, 19:56:19 »
let me get this straight.. you invent a suit that can take a direct gauss rifle hit per suit.. laugh it off.. still travel 3movement points so it can keep up with all standard suit and most of your assault mech elements to a degree and carried a single medium laser???    If I was a clan elemental I be glad that inner sphere squad only come in 4 instead of five or I really be in trouble.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #12 on: 31 December 2013, 20:06:56 »
Looking at it "in universe", it doesn't really make sense to go through all the trouble of redesigning something, and not using all the resources that you have access to at your disposal to improve it.  What (in universe) weapon designer goes "okay this is getting too powerful now, how can I tone it down so I can give the other guy a fighting chance"?  If it was a custom design from salvaged Clan parts, I'd understand how it can be mix and match, or if it was from a faction with limited Clan contact, but from a dedicated manufacturer with links to a "pet" Clan not to take full advantage of his Clan tech access, it doesn't make sense not to go all out with all the Clan stuff.

You have no idea what access the in universe designer has access to. His design spec may be as simple as send some cash Defiance's way.

Why not?  Other Inner Sphere suits are already using Clan-grade armor, so I don't see why they couldn't have used it on the Fenrir II when they clearly have access to Clan technology.   They could have made it a Wolf-in-Exile variant, or maybe just something that was produced on Arc-Royal by a subsdiary of Arc-Royal Mechworks.
Okay. How about something simple. The Lucifer has drawn flack for years for not having an ejector seat. In most games it is not an issue, but in fluff and campaigns it is.
A Clan BA chassis is an "ejector seat". It has a number of features that the IS chassis doesn't to keep the pilot alive. That IS chassis are lighter isn't a feature. It is a drawback. It is like strapping yourself into a Nascar without a seatbelt. It will work for a while until things go bad.
You are arguing design from a purely table top perspective where that isn't always the case.

That the Lyrans actually did go all outalready in the same book with the Cucu makes it even less sensical
The Lyrans aren't a communist state. They can't order their factories to produce X. They merely put out tenders and see what comes back.
In any case, the Cucu isn't a Lyran suit. It is an Exile suit. Made to Exile and Kell Hound specifications. Low volume production for elite units.
let me get this straight.. you invent a suit that can take a direct gauss rifle hit per suit.. laugh it off.. still travel 3movement points so it can keep up with all standard suit and most of your assault mech elements to a degree and carried a single medium laser???    If I was a clan elemental I be glad that inner sphere squad only come in 4 instead of five or I really be in trouble.
If I was an Elemental I would load an inferno round and laugh all the way to the bank.

sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #13 on: 31 December 2013, 22:15:48 »
let me get this straight.. you invent a suit that can take a direct gauss rifle hit per suit.. laugh it off.. still travel 3movement points so it can keep up with all standard suit and most of your assault mech elements to a degree and carried a single medium laser???    If I was a clan elemental I be glad that inner sphere squad only come in 4 instead of five or I really be in trouble.

Or, if I didn't load up on Infernos, I'd put a call in for my own assault suits to come play, what with the Elemental being two weight classes lower.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #14 on: 31 December 2013, 23:06:26 »
I think he meant Elemental as in the genotype.  But yeah, wouldn't fight this in a medium suit.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #15 on: 31 December 2013, 23:38:39 »
Constable jumps in. ECM Ghost. Smoke round.
Jumps, ECM Ghost. Smoke round.
Jumps, ECM Ghost. Smoke round.
Jumps, ECM Ghost. Smoke round.
Jumps, ECM Ghost. Smoke round.
Jumps, ECM Ghost. Smoke round.
Jumps, ECM Ghost. Smoke round. Inferno Grenade.

Go home, eat smoked kippers.





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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #16 on: 01 January 2014, 04:15:31 »
A Clan BA chassis is an "ejector seat". It has a number of features that the IS chassis doesn't to keep the pilot alive. That IS chassis are lighter isn't a feature. It is a drawback. It is like strapping yourself into a Nascar without a seatbelt. It will work for a while until things go bad.

This is another thing I have an issue with, in that the Clans have been shown to use some pretty unsafe things (such as Enhanced Imaging) if it gave them an edge in combat, so why not also use an "unsafe" BA chassis if it can potentially give them an edge?  Even if most Clan warriors does prefer to be on the "safe" side, by the time they reach Solahma age most will want to go out in a blaze of glory, and so "unsafe" designs that allows you to potentially give greater damage to the enemy, while at the same time increase your chances of dying gloriously in battle should be selling like hot cakes to this section of the Clan warrior caste.  Also, I would suspect that these "inferior" IS-style chassis would be "cheaper" than Clan-style ones, which would be even more perfect for the Solahma/ cannon fodder troops.  You don't even need to make a "new" design, you can just fluff them out as old Elemental suits with their "safety" systems taken out, giving them an extra 75kg that allows them to be refitted (for example) with a battle vibro claw and 2 extra shots of the SRM 2 launcher.
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sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #17 on: 01 January 2014, 06:20:40 »
Because the Clans have their own way of doing things which you may or may not understand or agree with, because you're not Clan. You might also ask why don't they like stealth but accept targeting computers? Or why don't they ban using Infernos as a dirty trick? Or ban using area effect weapons on battlearmor as equally dishonorable?

For good or bad, the Clans value equipping their battle armor with Harjel over the kilos they'd save by removing that system. From a purely game-based point of view it might seem a poor deal, but within the universe maybe they like the idea of having a greater chance of keeping their Elemental Warriors alive, even after their battlesuit is a shattered wreck. Remember that battle armor typically suffer terrible losses compared to Mechs, so if those extra kilos are the difference between being able to shove your Warrior into a new suit or having to wait for a replacement, then that's mass well spent.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #18 on: 01 January 2014, 06:43:37 »
From a purely game-based point of view it might seem a poor deal, but within the universe maybe they like the idea of having a greater chance of keeping their Elemental Warriors alive, even after their battlesuit is a shattered wreck. Remember that battle armor typically suffer terrible losses compared to Mechs, so if those extra kilos are the difference between being able to shove your Warrior into a new suit or having to wait for a replacement, then that's mass well spent.

Which is why I brought up the Solahma aspect.  They would seem to be the prime candidates to disregard all this "safety" stuff and modify their suits to give them more of a bang, as well as increase their chances of dying in battle.
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sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #19 on: 01 January 2014, 06:54:39 »
Except why waste developing then producing an entirely separate line of battlesuits for Solahma?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #20 on: 01 January 2014, 07:02:37 »
Except why waste developing then producing an entirely separate line of battlesuits for Solahma?

If the extra weight really is just "safety" equipment, then it stands to reason you can remove them in a major overhaul (leaving you with an "Inner Sphere" chassis), so you don't really need a "new" design, just an old one that now suddenly finds itself able to carry extra stuff.  I gave an example where the Elemental suit simply had 2 extra SRM 2 shots and its battle claw upgraded to vibro claws after undergoing the removal of its "safety" systems.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #21 on: 01 January 2014, 07:10:47 »
They have perfectly good infantry units for that.

Lets be very clear. Solahma are not suicide troops. At least not in the suicide bomber sense. The intent is that they come back, even if the troops don't want to. After all, dying in battle may be a personal aim, but it denies the Clan the chance to squeeze every last ounce out of you. Their equipment level is part social position, and simply a reflection that bidding means that they will be the last units to see any action.

Now, 'Mechs like the Hunchback IIC are a different matter. They are about maximising killing potential at the expense of everything else. Arguably (it has never been explicitly said so. I don't mind the Hunchback a genuine combat unit) such design concepts are a high risk tactic to gain kills for members of the touman who are otherwise struggling. Such units are used BEFORE a warrior ends up as Solahma.

As for the safety element. I guess it comes down to return on investment. Clan biomedical and cybernetic technology shows the Clans are willing to invest a lot to keep a Warrior going. They might only want 5 years out of a Warrior, but the question then becomes can you get 5 years out of an Elemental without harjel etc?

WeaponX

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #22 on: 01 January 2014, 07:38:24 »
but the question then becomes can you get 5 years out of an Elemental without harjel etc?

How benificial is it really?  Does it save you from an inferno strike for example?  Its nice to have both Fire Resistant and Harjel for example, but it should be a choice for the individual (in universe)warrior/(out of universe) player (just like Enhanced Imaging, or an Improved Small Laser mounted at the head is).  Its the Inner Sphere where I would expect them to coddle their warriors by handicapping them with unecessary "safety" stuff, not the Clans.  If Harjel was optional equipment (which I think it is now) then why isn't the IS embracing it more in their designs?  The Sea Foxes have a virtual supply monopoly and both Clan and IS should now have equal access to it by now.  What makes the Inner Sphere be more ready to "go for broke" than the, to qoute Ulric Kerensky, "we are but mayflies" (or something like that) Clans?
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sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #23 on: 01 January 2014, 14:56:02 »
If the extra weight really is just "safety" equipment, then it stands to reason you can remove them in a major overhaul (leaving you with an "Inner Sphere" chassis), so you don't really need a "new" design, just an old one that now suddenly finds itself able to carry extra stuff.

Nobody here is a battle armor designer, a real battle armor designer, or a battle armor techncian, so it's not really possible to just write off such work as a overhaul. Do you really know how integrated the Harjel system is into the rest of the chassis and thus how feasible it is to remove? I know I don't. Do you know what system allows a Clan chassis to torso-mount a missile launcher without mobility issues and how it interacts with the rest of the chassis? I don't know that either. Notably there's not a single canon design, even XTRO, that does such a modification as a simple overhaul, major or otherwise. Even the one example of going the other way, Inner Sphere to Clan, was the result of a large R&D program and purpose-built production by a major manufacturer.

Even if its possible, it comes back to wasting resources on Solahma, in this case the time of the technicians involved, the facilties and equipment required to perform the work, and the extra systems you want to add to the suit. Those all have to come from somewhere and obviously then can't be used on something the Clan values more than Solahma, such as frontline troops.

kenahk

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #24 on: 01 January 2014, 18:06:45 »
Weapon X, I can understand your reasoning, but I find it more interesting to have less than optimal performance units in the game. I think that it is also realistic, seeing that current military units are not always optimised.

Marveryn

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #25 on: 01 January 2014, 18:29:40 »
real life weapon system are always a comprise from simple thing as being too expensive.  or the tech not being ready to support the idea.  From weight and payload so on.   Right now are best take is the monster Abram, but the military is trying to create a smaller tank so it can be airlifted.  So as we speak those engineer are trying to built something like the abram that  can fit into a cargo plan.  If that isn't a test in comprise nothing is.   Another example is the modern power armor.  Once it is finally truly built what weapons, its battery power, how much would production cost are all going to have to be decided.   

ThreadKiller

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #26 on: 01 January 2014, 19:08:11 »
The arguments equating safety systems with harjel as the reason the Clans have a heavier chassis is all well and good, but there's now a Jade Falcon Khan (Malvina Hazen) who probably doesn't care about safety for her warriors, so i'd imagine her as someone who'd instruct her scientists to find ways to pack as much weapons into a platform as possible even if made them unsafe (remember she dropped a warship on her enemies and allies alike so I don't think she's have a problem with "unsafe" battle armor).

worktroll

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #27 on: 01 January 2014, 19:15:50 »
All we can say is that there's no evidence of any changes to the way Clan BA work featured in TROs, sourcebooks or novels.

One can draw conclusions from this - that Malvina doesn't bother to concern herself with things with less destructive than a kamikaze WarShip, for one, or that someone caught her on a good day and convinced her that dropping HarJel would be a bad idea. But they're just unsupported suppositions at this point in time.

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Jellico

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #28 on: 01 January 2014, 19:17:58 »
And Malvina is losing.

Wars are won by economists, not soldiers.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - 3145 Special - Fenrir II
« Reply #29 on: 01 January 2014, 19:35:41 »
The arguments equating safety systems with harjel as the reason the Clans have a heavier chassis is all well and good, but there's now a Jade Falcon Khan (Malvina Hazen) who probably doesn't care about safety for her warriors, so i'd imagine her as someone who'd instruct her scientists to find ways to pack as much weapons into a platform as possible even if made them unsafe (remember she dropped a warship on her enemies and allies alike so I don't think she's have a problem with "unsafe" battle armor).

Some things are just so normal and automatic that to do otherwise seems absurd in universe. Harjel is such a normal and accepted feature of clan BA design that to suggest not using it would likely be akin to Malvina suggesting they design a new mech with SHS and a compact engine and gyro to save space for weapons.  It would likely strike everyone present as patently absurd.  Some things are so ingrained into a culture that someone raised in that culture would never see what outsiders might.  I think "battle armor have harjel" is as elementary a tenet of clan BA design as "cars have four wheels" is a tenet of automobile manufacture IRL.  Could you build a car with three or six or eight wheels?  Maybe, but noone does so because they accept the status quo as normal and wouldn't think to do it another way.
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