Register Register

Author Topic: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42  (Read 6837 times)

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« on: 16 January 2014, 08:56:56 »
Vincent Mk. 39/42 Corvette



The words "light" and "WarShip" are rarely seen in the same sentence, but today we are indeed going to be looking at the lower end of the mass curve, even if it is a mass curve that bottoms out at a hundred kilotons. Long a mainstay of navies across human space from the Terran Hegemony all the way to the Clans today, the Vincent-class Corvette has been performing patrol and picket duties for over seven hundred years. It may not be much compared to other WarShips, but when you can express a machine's service life as a noticeable percentage of recorded human history, it's gotta be doing something right.

The Vincent is actually quite heavy for a Corvette, topping the scales at 420,000 tons. That's almost twice the mass of any other corvette-class before or since. What do you get for all that mass? Not much, I'll admit. The Vincent compares decently to most other vessels of her day, but is no match for any post-Star League vessel. Admittedly, that's more because of shifting roles, with modern corvettes forced into combat roles any self-respecting navy would use a destroyer or even cruiser for. That's not the Vincent's job, that's not what we're going to look at.

With a thrust curve rated at 2gs and a 3g maximum, the Vincent's maneuverability is respectable, if not as flashy as the Pinto or the spleen-congealing Mako. It can avoid trouble by outrunning(or at least pacing) most other WarShips or DropShips, while Vincents assigned to SL Pursuit squadrons are well-equipped for catching their prey. My favorite part of this thrust rating is that if you get into a close fight with enemy DropShips and they get on your tail(they will, trust me), you can maneuver like a normal 3/5 WarShip while keeping a bit of thrust in reserve for an ECHO maneuver to try and clear your baffles, as it were. (Note to self: Find out who to pester to get the SLS Crazy Ivan canonized.) The thrust curve also gives you some redundancy, allowing you to soak an engine hit while still maintaining decent performance, while 3/5 vessels can find their maneuvering options severely curtailed or even crippled with only one or two such hits.

Of course, no amount of speed will prevent you from getting hit. Speed ain't armor, armor is armor. People have long derided the Vincent-class for sporting a mere 108 points of ferro-carbide armor(lamellor on Clan-refitted vessels), but it's actually quite respectable when you stop and look closely. This armor level is noticeably higher than the Vigilant our Vincent replaced, and much tougher than the Pinto that was its only real rival. This edge grows even more when you add in the Vincent's 40 SI for a total of 188 points of damage absorption. This is 42% more than the Pinto's total of 132, and brings the Vincent to parity with the Bonaventure, the only other comparable vessel of the era.

So the hull of your Vincent may be respectable, and even nigh-on sturdy. You're still not tough, so don't act like it. Every single capital weapon known to man will threshold you save the Barracuda, and that's solo. It's not physically possibly to create a capital bay that cannot force critical hits on a Vincent, and there are plenty of ships out there that can reduce your hull to faintly glowing dust with a single salvo. Just accept the fact that crit happens, and try to stay the hell away from anything bigger than you. The good news is that any other corvette you find will be just as vulnerable as you. In addition, your damage threshold is just high enough that no fighter-carried weapon can threshold you until we see the development of such things as the Heavy Gauss Rifle or Anti-Ship Missiles. Most pre-Clan DropShips are in the same boat, either completely unable to generate a threshold crit, or only capable of it after closing to short standard range. Unsurprisingly, the only exceptions are recently-released designs like the Pentagon. As a result, non-capital enemies will have to slog through your armor the hard way, hopefully giving you time to either finish them off with your own weapons, or escaping to the cover of friendlies.

(You may have noticed that I'm largely ignoring the Mako-class, the only other known corvette class of the pre-Succession Wars era. This is intentional. Despite being named a corvette, the Mako is pretty clearly a destroyer. It's built like one, and the vessel's stated role of escort is a destroyer job, not a corvette's. Comparing it to a Vincent or any other pre-Clan corvette is a pointless waste of time.)

I guess you're all wondering when I'm going to get around to the warfighting end of this WarShip, and I guess I can't string you guys along forever. The Vincent's main armament is composed of four 10-class Naval AutoCannons, one in each fore-quarter and broadside arc, backed up by a twin mount of Barracudas poking out the bow. Closer in, this is packed up by a pair of large lasers riding alongside each cannon as a last-ditch fighter defense. Much like the armor, this may seem criminally light, but on closer inspection isn't bad at all. Those NACs give you good reach and a punch that cannot be ignored by medium WarShips, to say nothing of the chunks they'll tear out of any DropShip's hide. You won't one-shot many combat ships, but a second salvo will do the job more often than not. Their placement in overlapping arcs allows you to concentrate your fire on single targets, allowing you to land heavier salvos than expected, and actually outperforming the more heavily-armed Pinto. At this scale of combat the Barracudas also represent a healthy chunk of firepower, giving you an extremely accurate and long-ranged hit that can threshold many WarShips, put a serious dent in any contemporary DropShip, and leave a fighter wondering why its front half decided to go wander off for tea. Throw in all the fun tricks you can do with any capital missile, and a Vincent's bow tubes alone can represent a major asset in any light space engagement. Heck, they'd even make decent infantry support weapons when you throw in all the accuracy bonuses capmissiles(especially 'Cudas) get when used an an anti-surface role, as well as their reduced blast radius making them less of a risk to your own troops.

The Vincent's small array of lasers may seem like a token armament at best, but they're well-placed to do their job. Their positioning alongside the big NACs means they're probably already pointed at the enemy, and like the NACs you can combine two bays onto a single target. Their placement in twin mounts means that these bays are just powerful enough to generate threshold crits on any fighter squadron, exactly what you need to be doing if you hope to drive them off.

Transport is not one of the Vincent's main roles, but it can do the job in a pinch. A lack of docking collars means it cannot carry any DropShips through hyperspace, and any that wish to dock will have to use one of the bays doors. That said, a ninety-kiloton-plus cargo bay does give you plenty of room for hauling bulk gear, as well as supplies for your own extended cruises. In a pinch, a Vincent can definitely work as an armed transport. As far as auxiliary craft go, the Vincent is pretty well-equipped. A squadron of fighters gives you a nice screen, as well as possibly extending your combat reach well beyond that of your guns. Four shuttlebays can be loaded with cargo shuttles or gunships, though in light of the Vincent's role as a picket, I'm probably advise at least a couple of long-range scouts.

A bit of attention should be paid to the Mk 42 variant of the Vincent, those vessels that have been upgraded to Clan standards. Armor, speed, and capital weapons remain identical to the Star League's Mk 39, though the conventional lasers have been upgraded to Clan ER models. Raw punch remains essentially unchanged, but the increased range will help in scoring a few extra hits before enemies get in close. Like all Clan WarShips the Mk. 42 also gains a harjel system and lithium fusion battery, gaining a bit more durability and allowing it to keep up with other Clan capital assets or serve as an effective fleet scout. We've been told that Clan vessels also mount HPGs(as well as those of certain Spheroid fleets), but there is nothing confirming the presence of such on any Mk. 39 or Mk. 42, so nothing can be assumed there.

With even less confirmation than the HPG, very little can be said of the Vincent's detachable jump sail. Barely a footnote in the original TRO 2750 and even less in TRO 3057, we know nothing of what it can or cannot do, or if it even still exists or is destined to be retconned the next time a developer hears about it. No real idea what benefits or drawbacks such a system might have, though it would probably be useful for a vessel that must react quickly while charging the drive.

How do you use a Vincent? That really depends, as it was built for one set of roles, while the vagaries of fate have forced it into entirely different ones. Post-Amaris, Vincents are likely to operate by themselves or even as command ships as they are to be in a proper WarShip division. A captain of such a vessel has been given command of a huge concentration of resources and prestige. Problem is, he's expected to operate as such with what was meant to be a cheap and almost disposable asset. He cannot place his rather fragile vessel in great harm, but at the same time he is expected to pit the awesome power assumed to be available to any WarShip captain against modern ships that are tougher, faster, and nastier than his, and constantly growing more so. My advice would be to operate in a fire-support role, using the range of those NACs and missiles to back up your own DropShips and fighters while staying out of the thick of things. An ideal usage would be to send your smaller craft well ahead, and use off-map Bearing-Only launches to support them as a kind of spaceborne artillery battery. If anything truly nasty breaks through and heads your way, run. Even for Clan officers, the loss of personal honor is a far lower cost than the loss of the ship. If you can spare the thrust, don't forget that evasive maneuvers have no effect on capmissile to-hit numbers, so you can use your Barracudas to try and dissuade pursuers even while making their own fire more difficult.

But what about large operations, you ask? With the bevy of information being released these days about eras when the word "fleet" wasn't accompanied by a snicker or sad sigh, this deserves attention. To understand this role, we must take a look at large fleet operations. Fleets have two parts, one defensive and one offensive. The offensive part of the fleet is fleet's core. Be it a battleship division, carrier group, or troop transport squadron, their job is to get to the enemy and do impolite things to him using weaponry carried onboard or on smaller units carried within. The rest of your fleet is the defensive escorts, whose job is to foil the plans of anyone seeking to prevent the aforementioned impoliteness. In order to intercept these threats, you have to detect them first, and you have to do so with enough advance notice that you can catch them and stop them before they reach your core. Now spacecraft have pretty good detection ranges(about 100,000 km for large craft radar, to say nothing of other sensor types), but space is a lot, LOT bigger, and system-transit speeds let you cross distances like that in no time. Therefore, you have to detect them further out. As a result, the deployment of a fleet's escorts and scouts looks a lot like this:



In this metaphor, your fabulous fleet's core is in Tony Stark's fabulous head. Your fleet will actually have multiple shells of glowy things, with each one represents an escort or picket. The innermost shells will be your most powerful escorts, be they cruisers, carriers, assault DropShips, whatever. Successive shells will be additional escorts, even down to fighter screens carried by things as small as a Leopard-CV. Your outermost shells are your picket ships, whose job is to detect threats at a great distance, and vector interceptors and escorts towards them so they can be stopped long before reaching the Big Giant Head. This is where a Vincent belongs. Sure you can use it as an escort, but you'll get the most out of your investment here. The Vincent patrols out here far beyond the sensor range of the fleet's core, making sure that no enemies are approaching along its vector. If it does find something, it can engage the enemy directly if appropriate, or send a message to fleet units further in, withdrawing while keeping tabs on the interlopers. Ideally, the Vincent's detection range would be boosted even further by pretending to be its own Tony Stark and deploying a shell of glowy bits using its complement of shuttles. Their sensor range is far smaller than the WarShip's, but every bit helps.

In contrast, killing a Vincent is rather simple. You catch it, you shoot it, and you keep that up until you can see out the other side. The placement of all weapons along the sides and bow creates an obvious hole to take advantage of, and fighters and DropShips are advised to use it. Be careful though, as a Vincent can always ECHO and swing around to point a broadside where you least expect it. I don't care what you're commanding, nobody enjoys getting hit by a pair of NAC/10s.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

Zureal

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
  • There are Mechs incoming? Bring up T-Rex!
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #1 on: 16 January 2014, 21:42:43 »
    Thank you vary much for a informed and well wrighten article. It was vary eye opening and now it makes much more sens why it was built the way it was and I even doint dislike it anymore. Though now i have imagined of small packs of these, like 4, "hunting" like U-boats of old  >:D Cool idea anyways XD lol  }:)

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1620
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #2 on: 16 January 2014, 22:29:47 »
Definitely don't short the Vincent in a fight, not least because of its high SI.  Trust me, it's actually more durable than a Zechetinu.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4436
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #3 on: 17 January 2014, 00:59:55 »
Two basic roles. A mobile sensor as has been discussed.

And ortillery. A pair of NAC10s is a credible threat as ortillery. And you can totally afford to lose a Vincent in that oh so dangerous of roles.

In contrast, killing a Vincent is rather simple. You catch it, you shoot it, and you keep that up until you can see out the other side.
Over-penetration is your friend here. Strat Ops P116

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #4 on: 17 January 2014, 02:36:05 »
With an original SI of 40, Vincents actually cannot be over-penetrated. Too many reinforced bulkheads for shots to pass through. In 3057r, at least, the Pinto and Baron classes are the only ones that could possibly benefit from over-penetration, aside from the two 'lost' transports.

Thank you vary much for a informed and well wrighten article. It was vary eye opening and now it makes much more sens why it was built the way it was and I even doint dislike it anymore. Though now i have imagined of small packs of these, like 4, "hunting" like U-boats of old  >:D Cool idea anyways XD lol  }:)

That's part of why I write these articles, to give people new insight into units they might otherwise dismiss after only a glance. O0

Definitely don't short the Vincent in a fight, not least because of its high SI.  Trust me, it's actually more durable than a Zechetinu.

Yeah, I've found that a lot of supposed deathtraps turn out to be quite durable when you remember how tough SI is. People tend to assume that a ship starts falling apart once the armor's gone like a lot of ground units do, but in most cases clearing off the armor is simply the easy part in killing a WarShip.

And ortillery. A pair of NAC10s is a credible threat as ortillery. And you can totally afford to lose a Vincent in that oh so dangerous of roles.

That's true, the Vincent would make a very nice ortillery platform. You've got the missiles for precision strikes, the NACs when you need to make a 'mech company or battalion panic, and while not VERY fast, it can at least try and get out of arc if it detects an SDS unit before the shots start slamming into the hull. Remember that targets of SDS uits must be in the arc when they fire *and* when the shots reach orbit(a major concern for anything but energy weapons), and I can certainly see a Vincent as having a good chance of boosting to safety before ground-launched missiles or whatnot hit it. And if it does get hit by heavy fire, the Vincent is certainly less of a loss than an Avatar or Mckenna. About the only weakness is the lack of aft guns, so you've got to work for it if you want to do sustained hovering bombardments.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3395
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #5 on: 17 January 2014, 03:28:17 »
(Note to self: Find out who to pester to get the SLS Crazy Ivan canonized.)

I'd suggest pestering Jason Schmetzer, the BattleCorps Managing Editor (submissions@battlecorps.com) with a filled-out BattleCorps Ship Profile submission template;)

(http://battlecorps.com/downloads/Ship_Profile_Submission_Template.rtf)
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7620
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #6 on: 17 January 2014, 05:01:42 »
So there's like 30 armor on each facing and then 40 SI to get through, I can see way just getting through the armor isn't enough, that said, I think I can take one of these with a squadron of properly selected fighters in a single turn, once I reach firing range

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4436
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #7 on: 17 January 2014, 06:10:53 »
So there's like 30 armor on each facing and then 40 SI to get through, I can see way just getting through the armor isn't enough, that said, I think I can take one of these with a squadron of properly selected fighters in a single turn, once I reach firing range
And note, that WarShip SI is double (80).

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #8 on: 17 January 2014, 08:40:49 »
So there's like 30 armor on each facing and then 40 SI to get through, I can see way just getting through the armor isn't enough, that said, I think I can take one of these with a squadron of properly selected fighters in a single turn, once I reach firing range

More like 16-19 armor on each facing. And as was said, both armor and SI are capital scale. To OSK a Vincent, you have to apply 960-990 standard damage to a single location. In addition, the hit location chart is working against you almost as much as the 'mech one would, so plan on actually landing much more than that on target,
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7620
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #9 on: 17 January 2014, 19:17:52 »
I was thinking of using Anti-Shipping missiles, with a big enough cargo bay with the bomb bay quirk a fighter can do 100 points of damage

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7903
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #10 on: 17 January 2014, 20:04:33 »
So here's a crazy question: in the spirit of the "an Atlas can kill 36 Stingers" adage, how many of these would it take to kill a Leviathan II?  I feel like the "Leviathan II Equivalecy Rating" should be a standard test of a WarShip's combat capability.  lol
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4436
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #11 on: 17 January 2014, 20:33:10 »
So here's a crazy question: in the spirit of the "an Atlas can kill 36 Stingers" adage, how many of these would it take to kill a Leviathan II?  I feel like the "Leviathan II Equivalecy Rating" should be a standard test of a WarShip's combat capability.  lol
One. But KF drives are like that.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10313
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #12 on: 17 January 2014, 20:34:37 »
And it only takes one triple engine TAC from a Stinger to kill an Atlas, but that doesn't tell us very much about either one of those units, either.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #13 on: 17 January 2014, 20:35:46 »
I was thinking of using Anti-Shipping missiles, with a big enough cargo bay with the bomb bay quirk a fighter can do 100 points of damage

A squadron still won't one-shot a Vincent, even assuming that works. You want to one-shot a Vincent with a fighter squadron, each fighter must put out enough firepower that it will put 160-165 damage into one hit location. To ensure that, I'd advise doing roughly 50% more than that minimum, otherwise the hit chart alone will stop you.

That, and no canon fighter exists with the bomb bay quirk. No reason to worry about this until that happens.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 17159
  • Dang it!
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #14 on: 17 January 2014, 22:37:01 »
Thanks for coming up and writing this insightful article, Weirdo.   Nicd see some WarShip article love here.  Like its been said above, new way of looking at these old gray ladies is eye opener.  I too fell in to the group thinking Vincent is a undergunned toaster box with missiles and couple pop guns. 

I do think though the ship like other Star League era ships, are vulnerable to Fighter Squadrons.  It really doesn't have enough firepower to effectively use bracket fire against incoming fighters.

I do wonder though if WarShips could be placed in a Squadron like fighters and now DropShips, i wonder if they'd faired better if they ran into a large foe such as a pair destroyers.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #15 on: 17 January 2014, 23:00:12 »
I do think though the ship like other Star League era ships, are vulnerable to Fighter Squadrons.  It really doesn't have enough firepower to effectively use bracket fire against incoming fighters.

It can't bracket at all, actually. Fighters are definitely a great threat to a Vincent, possibly one of the most dangerous short of a bigger and faster WarShip. You might be able to take on a single squadron(with your own birds taking on a second) with your Barracudas and the odd NAC hit, with the lasers possibly finishing something off. If you face larger numbers, your best bet would be to use your superior sensor range to detect them well outside striking range and start running, beating them with your massive fuel tank. Of course an aggressive Vincent captain could always try to bull his way through the fighter swarm and trust in his armor to keep him alive long enough to get the carriers into range. No matter how many fighters they brought, a group of Leopard-CVs or Vengeances will NOT fare well if anything with as many NACs as a Vincent wanders into their midst. Threaten the carriers, you might be able to force the surrender of the fighters before your hull looks TOO much like swiss cheese.

Quote
I do wonder though if WarShips could be placed in a Squadron like fighters and now DropShips, i wonder if they'd faired better if they ran into a large foe such as a pair destroyers.

No (current) ruleset allows for grouping WarShips like that, but even running that many individual Vincents would definitely be a threat to a couple destroyers. The Barracudas alone start to add up to a decent amount of firepower, and even without any bracketing or anything, those are a lot of NACs to have to try and live through.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8269
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #16 on: 18 January 2014, 02:35:44 »
fluff wise.. was the Vincent designed before bracket fire? you'd figure they'd have designed it to exploit the Hegemony 'super technique' if it was designed after bracket fire was developed.

given the huge cargo bay, and the lack of dropships, what was the point of arming it so lightly?

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4436
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #17 on: 18 January 2014, 02:51:34 »
The Vincent is an old old ship. In general bracketing came in around 2500. Purely by accident you see the more successful ships after that date using it well. Eg the Cameron doesn't.

The Vincent's role is to hang around and report. Not get shot at. With its huge cargo bay it is very good at just hanging around for long periods of time.
Also as noted it is totally expendable.
The weapons that it does have are perfectly adequate for the bullying type tasks like orbital bombardment, or smashing DropShips. You may as well ask why a Reaper Drone doesn't have a jet engine or carry ARRAMs. In the intended environment they just aren't necessary.


SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7620
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #18 on: 18 January 2014, 05:43:29 »
The intro date we've got for this of 2409, is that for the Mk. 1 or the Mk. 39?

Trace Coburn

  • Starfighter Analyst
  • Global Moderator
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4064
  • За родину и свободу!
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #19 on: 18 January 2014, 06:40:06 »
  Probably the Mk.1, though I don’t know if that’s ever been nailed down in canon.

  That being said, about ten years(!) ago GiovanniBlasini and Ashenwelt posted some designs from their home-campaign material that used a conceit that I always liked and wished could be adopted into canon: that each Mark of Vincent got its designation not from being a new model in a series, but because each Mark was built by a given shipyard to a locally-chosen variation on the Vincent theme and drew its designation from the yard that produced that Mark.  For instance:

Quote from: fan-writeup, corvette, Vincent Mk.23 R64, SLS Hoshi Sato
Most Vincent variants are designated based upon the yards they were refit in. For example, the Mk. 23 is the standard refit originally done in the Terran Hegemony Repair & Refit Yard #23, in the Ashenwelt system.
  (‘Ashenwelt System’.  Heh-heh-heh.  :D)
  It’s fanon, so take it with a grain of salt, but nonetheless it’s a fun and flavourful designation-system that I’ve adopted for my own fan-material.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 17159
  • Dang it!
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #20 on: 18 January 2014, 12:40:58 »
Too bad these old WarShips can't benefit from Design Quirks.  I remember reading in the fluff for the Vincent that they were modular in some fashion, enabling them to survive longer. 

Now with so few of these ships surviving, infact the Inner Sphere only has ONE remaining Vincent owned by the Raven Alliance (Mk. 42), unless Taurians suddenly cough up these long hidden and missing Mk.39.

I kept thinking that if the ships of this class were infact module, maybe they should be reconfigured into becoming Escort carriers or something.  They maybe expensive, but they certainly could quickly get out of the way if their Weapons Bays aren't going save them.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

BrokenMnemonic

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1446
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #21 on: 18 January 2014, 14:54:18 »
I realise this is probably not particularly relevant, but one thing about the Vincent that I've been curious about ever since I picked up TRO: 3057; how did a "refit" result in it going from a long, cylindrical shape to a squat cuboid shape? Is it actually that the cuboid shape is quite long and it's gained bulk all round that isn't apparent because of different scaling in the pictures?

Historical: Op Klondike has a picture with a couple of Vincents in it that look like Mk. 42s, which makes me wonder who manufactured the Mk. 40, 41 and 42 respectively - at least one of those marks must predate the Pentagon Civil War.

It's more interesting than optimal, and therefore better. O0 - Weirdo

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7903
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #22 on: 18 January 2014, 15:49:08 »
I realise this is probably not particularly relevant, but one thing about the Vincent that I've been curious about ever since I picked up TRO: 3057; how did a "refit" result in it going from a long, cylindrical shape to a squat cuboid shape? Is it actually that the cuboid shape is quite long and it's gained bulk all round that isn't apparent because of different scaling in the pictures?

Historical: Op Klondike has a picture with a couple of Vincents in it that look like Mk. 42s, which makes me wonder who manufactured the Mk. 40, 41 and 42 respectively - at least one of those marks must predate the Pentagon Civil War.

OOC, the artists for TRO 2750 (cylindrical) and TRO 3057 (blocky) weren't on the same page.  IC, the cylindrical on is the SLDF's MK. 39, the blocky one is the Clan MK. 42.  It was a really extensive refit. ;)   Or something like that.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #23 on: 18 January 2014, 16:11:31 »
IC, the cylindrical on is the SLDF's MK. 39, the blocky one is the Clan MK. 42.  It was a really extensive refit. ;)   Or something like that.

Something very not like that. Mk. 39s can be cylindrical or blocky or anything in between. Mk. 42s are blocky unless declared cylindrical. Same goes for all ships that appeared in both TROs 2750 and 3057.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7903
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #24 on: 18 January 2014, 16:18:31 »
Shows my lack of expertise in all things naval.   :-[
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #25 on: 18 January 2014, 16:31:51 »
It's a common misconception. People do have a tendency to assume that 3057 = Clan refit because that's where we first saw the Clan navies.

The truth is that 2750 = Star League, while 3057 = Star League or Clan. And the mechanics of how a ship can go from a 2750 appearance to a 3057 and still be the same ship WILL cause your brain to dribble out your ears, so I strongly recommend not even thinking about it.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3923
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #26 on: 18 January 2014, 17:11:58 »
While an awesome job has been done to bolt on after-the-fact rationales and buffs to the TRO2750 designs to overcome their pre-design rules origins and frequent inadequacies, I still wish they'd bit the bullet and totally revamped the ships when they were republished.

I've used the Vinnie many times and appreciate that its tougher than it might appear to players new to aerospace, and I do understand Jellico's point that for the SLDF this was a WarShip that was an expendable scout/picket that was intended to run away from serious trouble. However, even with that in mind, the Vinnie is still highly questionable and could easily be improved with little impact to cost or cargo.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33333
  • Divided States of SMASH
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #27 on: 18 January 2014, 18:50:45 »
Well for those who can't handle a stock Vincent, there's the fan designs forum. For everyone else...I made this thread.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4436
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #28 on: 18 January 2014, 19:03:47 »
I wish that they would bite the bullet and introduce punitive daily supply usage restricting modern ships to tooling around their home solar system.  :P

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7620
Re: WarShip of the Week - Vincent Mk. 39/Mk. 42
« Reply #29 on: 18 January 2014, 19:59:58 »
Another question, what type of K-F drive does the Vincent use? It's introduction is too late for it to be using a Primitive core, but too early for it to use a modern one, as evidenced by it's lack of DS collars