Author Topic: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank  (Read 7127 times)

JadeHellbringer

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VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« on: 15 September 2014, 17:17:36 »


I'm a day late. Don't like it, there's the door. ;) I'll also note that this vehicle was covered in a previous article, but several years back- and before we had the now-standard model. Seems like a good time to come back and give it another well-deserved look.

Anyway. We spent last week talking about how House Liao makes life miserable on its enemies with their latest- and, arguably greatest- feat of armored engineering. Let's keep that trend going this week and look at yet another way Liao causes people pain with the Behemoth II. (Full disclosure, I had two ideas for this week, and all the way until I got home from work I wasn't sure which to go with. Putting my music program on 'random', I got Static-X "Behemoth". If that's not a sign, I don't know what is.)

So, your Pixius, Po IIs, and all that jazz didn't do the job, and the FedRats or Republicans are just making your life a living hell. Liao looks around and sees big nasties like the Ontos, the Ajax, the Challenger, the Marksman, and... well, historically there hasn't been a big response to make. Sure, there's things like the Demolisher that everyone has some of, but not really a home-grown "THIS is how I will make you regret coming here" assault tank... other than the Behemoth. For those unfamiliar, first, welcome to Battletech. Second, the Behemoth was notable for having guns sticking out of every orifice, surprisingly thin armor for its 100-ton size, and being slower than Stalkers mating. So a fine vehicle for guarding a location against multiple attack angles, but not so great at... well, moving. Or surviving, for that matter. Still, it's all Aldis Industries was supplying back then, and you made do. Now, Aldis had a chance to build an 'Ajax Killer', so to speak, a beast that could take on any other assault-weight tank and just flat WIN. They succeeded... or did they? You be the judge of this widely exported but troubled vehicle.

Deep in the heart of this 100 ton... well, behemoth... is a 300XL motor, giving this Behemoth a big boost in speed over its grandfather design- not that that's saying much. That boost still means the tank now makes a stately- but average- pace of 3/5, enough to move to defensive positions where needed and take part in slow-moving attacks alongside similar-weight assault forces, at least. Amusingly, looking back 100 years, the idea of putting a fusion engine on a tank, let alone an XL, was unheard of- now it feels almost like a given.

Sheathing this monster are 15 tons of ferro-fibrous armor, the kind of shell that makes an enemy groan with frustration. Granted, the real threat is having the treads knocked out, but if this becomes a pillbox it's going to be a very tough to kill pillbox at least. The armor, as usual, is heaviest up front- to the tune of an impressive 65 points. That's going to take work to get through- a full blast from the vaunted Hellstar won't crack that forward plating, no small feat. The turret and sides get 55 points each as well, surprisingly well-rounded all things considered. Even the rear gets 38 points, plenty enough to feel secure even after a couple of Gauss shots to the derriere. These don't die easy- trust me, testing it last week was a lesson in frustration.

So can it do anything in reply? Sit down and listen, son. It's not uncommon to start a big nasty assault tank with a Gauss rifle as the main focus- the Marksman, Mars, Gurteltier, Challenger, and others have done that trick before. That doesn't make it any less of an impressive idea, of course- one might argue that the Gauss rifle is a bigger revelation and improvement to a tank than to a Battlemech, really, with the energy weapon rules and more difficult critical hit situation for the vehicle. Your opinion might vary, but either way that's a Poland Main Model C sticking out the front of the turret here, fed with the usual two tons of ammo. Not to be trifled with.

Here things take a turn for the 'huh?'. The Pixiu discussion last week brought up the Thunderbolt-5's usefulness as a weapon- is it a good thing to have, or is a regular LRM rack better? On the Pixiu I'd have rather had the LRM. Here... oh my. EIGHT Thunderbolt-5s sit atop the turret in a pair of box launchers. The array weighs just shy of what a Commando does, and is fed by four tons of ammo- enough for most engagements, anyway. That's quite the barrage, combined with the rifle! But wait- it gets better. See, the quirks for the Behemoth II are 'long range' and 'improved targeting'. This thing sits back and makes life a living hell for its enemies, hitting with a flurry of big missiles and a nickel slug with alarming accuracy while proving a match for whatever gets thrown back at it. As a final option, in case someone gets closer, a quartet of RL-10 racks are in a unique 'hanging' configuration on the sides of the turret as a little extra one-shot punch.

Nice, right? Well, here things get weird. This is the most recent version we Battletech fans have- and it's the STANDARD model. The support model, we've had for a good ten years now... the variant is what we saw first. Unusual, right? Showing up in the old MWDA record sheet book, this version keeps the rifle, but drops the rest. The hanging rocket racks become LRM-20s, the T-bolt launchers are replaced with Streak SRM-4 systems, and an ER large laser (and the two heat sinks it needed) get stapled alongside the Gauss. Predating much of the new technology in the Total Warfare era, this has a very old-school feel- not in a bad way, of course. This works just fine as an assault unit, keeping much of the long range punch of the other model. Consider using both and see which you prefer.

Behemoth IIs are built in the Republic on Terra and Betelgeuse, but made their name with House Liao- however, its early years saw limited sales, and many of these tanks were literally gifted to high-profile commands to try to get sales. This tactic worked well for the Tarantula Battlemech, and eventually seems to have done well here as well-while Liao forces may have made the Behemoth II famous, it's not hard to find Behemoth IIs serving in nearly every military out there in at least some number or other, and in many of the Republic breakaway factions from the early days of the Blackout- making the best defense against a Behemoth II another of its brethren.

So yeah. Liao might still not be building a home-grown assault tank, but they sure have a good one in their ranks these days. Ever used one? Fought one? Thoughts on the two versions? You know how this works.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #1 on: 15 September 2014, 17:34:04 »
I really love this thing's use of the Thunderbolt.  The main problem with the Thunderbolt launcher (besides losing 3 hexes range) is that it's too easy to lose all your damage to a single AMS.

Not on this puppy.  You might shoot down one.  You might even shoot down two.  The other six will knock you on your ass if the gauss rifle hadn't already.  This is Thunderbolts done right, and I like it.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #2 on: 15 September 2014, 21:09:40 »
The classic approach of "I just bring more missiles than you have ammo for your Anti-Missile System".  :D
That said, 6 rounds per launcher isn't exactly a staggering supply. Or it is, depending on how you read the words.

I think "Improved Targeting, Long Range" is a single Quirk.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #3 on: 15 September 2014, 21:18:30 »
I've used the Behemoth II once before, as part of a House Ma-Tsu Kai attack force made up of two augmented companies. One of the two companies included a half-dozen Behemoth IIs, and I can attest that they are downright murderous anti-'Mech machines. A pair of them leading the way killed a fresh Carronade and then a Hunchback in three turns, and then forced back the remainder of the lance with little trouble.


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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #4 on: 15 September 2014, 21:47:55 »
I can not attest to thier performance in conventional Battletech, the Spirit Cat and Swordsworn Behemoth IIs in the initial Dark Age set served me well for the entirety of my ClickWarrior Career.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #5 on: 15 September 2014, 23:07:04 »
this is (visually) a wonderful tank. straightforward, simple, but still with enough creative flair to stand out, it's hard to find a flaw in the Behemoth's design. the main body is a heavy armor slab angled almost entirely horizontally- anything firing to the front is going to have to shear through almost the entirety of the armor attacking anywhere from above and it still has plenty of clearance for  rough terrain (which is something of a rarity in battletech's tank designs)

the turret is just  vicious. the massive housing for the gauss aligned next to the forward gunner's cockpit gives it a very sniper-friendly feel and the thunderbolt launchers are given a generous field of fire. the rocket pods unusual design strikes me as very practical actually- why manually reload those suckers on a tank when you can swap them for a fresh set of launchers and leave the reloading for after the tank's ready to go? i have to wonder if it's nearly as convenient when it's the support model version and those hanging mounts are holding around twenty times the weight though....
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #6 on: 15 September 2014, 23:12:29 »
I can not attest to thier performance in conventional Battletech, the Spirit Cat and Swordsworn Behemoth IIs in the initial Dark Age set served me well for the entirety of my ClickWarrior Career.

Yeah, that behemoth II was one of the few vehicles the spirit cats had as a standard- though it was a glass cannon as all clickytech was.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #7 on: 15 September 2014, 23:52:45 »
The Behemoth II finally lives up to it's name.

I remember scarring the crap out of people with a hidden Demolisher, The Behemoth II can be just as scary in a dark ally considering it's now hard to kill.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #8 on: 16 September 2014, 02:50:29 »
The Behemoth II finally lives up to it's name.

I remember scarring the crap out of people with a hidden Demolisher, The Behemoth II can be just as scary in a dark ally considering it's now hard to kill.

Not really - the Gauss has a min range of 2 and the Thunderbolts have min range 5. Unless you hot load them (if you can do that with thunderbolts, iirc you can) then you might have some issues. The min range on the Gauss isn't too bad but still, and that's a single 15-point hit - painful, but usually not the end of the world.

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #9 on: 16 September 2014, 05:02:20 »
Given that the rules stat that LRM's and ATM's can be hot loaded but not MRM's or Thunderbolt's I'm going to guess no.

And am I the only one who wants version of the Thunderbolt-10, -15 and -20 that shoot multiple -5 missiles?

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #10 on: 16 September 2014, 06:28:17 »
This is a good machine for a ranged fight, has enough firepower to draw attention from it's faster pals as they are closing in towards the enemy and enough armour to survive all the attention it gets.

During one game it took two Destriers and a Devastator three turns to destroy Behemoth II that was the last survivor of the opposing force.

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #11 on: 16 September 2014, 12:18:56 »
I remember scarring the crap out of people with a hidden Demolisher, The Behemoth II can be just as scary in a dark ally considering it's now hard to kill.

Eh, not really in a dark alley.  Thunderbolts are crap at short range (inside their range minimum, they do half damage on top of the reduced accuracy, so you've got a really bad SRM 8) and Gauss rifles aren't quite as intimidating in that situation as the class 20 is.  The RLs are still kind of concerning but the overall effect just lacks the visceral terror the Demolisher commanded back in the day.  Getting one out of that alley without bringing the surrounding buildings down is going to be a real pain in the neck, though.

To me, the Behemoth III is kind of an upscale option for the consumer who isn't interested in a Gauss Demolisher or HPPC Schrek, a little heavier, a little tougher, a more diverse but very capable weapons fit, and with a bigger price tag.

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #12 on: 16 September 2014, 12:37:32 »
the 'dark ally' was a metaphor guys :P

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #13 on: 16 September 2014, 15:40:46 »
Given that the rules stat that LRM's and ATM's can be hot loaded but not MRM's or Thunderbolt's I'm going to guess no.
The most recent TacOps errata makes it so any missile weapon may be hot-loaded, and the printing before that had Thunderbolts able to be hot loaded in their own equipment entry (but not mentioned in the hot-loading entry, which caused some confusion). 

On a related note, the TRO shows the Behemoth II as having 8 tons (96 shots) of Thunderbolt-5 ammo, not 4 (which would give the same total number of shots if T-bolts 5s had the same number of shots per ton as LRM 5s).  12 turns per launcher is much more reasonable, and you can easily hot-load some of those tons of ammo for when someone thinks they're safe by getting in under the minimum range. 

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #14 on: 16 September 2014, 16:45:06 »
Well dang, this is a nice Tank-and I busted out a construction program to check and yes, it does hold eight tons of Thunder ammo, though I might be tempted to drop that down to seven and add CASE.  There's a lot on this tank that can blow up.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #15 on: 16 September 2014, 17:08:07 »
Eh, not really in a dark alley.  Thunderbolts are crap at short range (inside their range minimum, they do half damage on top of the reduced accuracy, so you've got a really bad SRM 8) and Gauss rifles aren't quite as intimidating in that situation as the class 20 is.  The RLs are still kind of concerning but the overall effect just lacks the visceral terror the Demolisher commanded back in the day.  Getting one out of that alley without bringing the surrounding buildings down is going to be a real pain in the neck, though.

Nonono.... the Behemoth II in the alley is the bait. It's what draws them into the alley and in to close range with your hidden demolishers and Yin Longs.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #16 on: 16 September 2014, 21:13:36 »
Nonono.... the Behemoth II in the alley is the bait. It's what draws them into the alley and in to close range with your hidden demolishers and Yin Longs.

I haven't had the chance to try this in field conditions yet, but if you're worried about somebody getting under the Behemoth II's minimums, try using a lance composed of three Behemoth IIs and a Po II. Just a single UAC/20 in the mix will make plans to rush that lance suddenly look a lot less appealing.


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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #17 on: 16 September 2014, 23:13:17 »
I haven't had the chance to try this in field conditions yet, but if you're worried about somebody getting under the Behemoth II's minimums, try using a lance composed of three Behemoth IIs and a Po II. Just a single UAC/20 in the mix will make plans to rush that lance suddenly look a lot less appealing.

I'm not even sure how best to go about trying to kill that platoon. My usual theory of 'airstrikes until nothing moves' probably means not getting your planes back, you can't bum-rush it, you can't hang back and pick at it... did we bring artillery along?

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #18 on: 16 September 2014, 23:20:07 »
Yeah, in just a couple of TROs the CCAF has gone from a relatively crappy armor selection (the Regulator and LBX Po being pretty much the sole shining stars) to being highly competitive. Just imaging taking that lance I described and rounding it out with a lance of Pixius and another of Regulator IIs, maybe with some Fa Shihs riding along. That is the kind of ****** terrifying armored company that will have Feddie and Leaguer 'Mechjocks bricking their britches.


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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #19 on: 16 September 2014, 23:41:05 »
I'm not even sure how best to go about trying to kill that platoon. My usual theory of 'airstrikes until nothing moves' probably means not getting your planes back, you can't bum-rush it, you can't hang back and pick at it... did we bring artillery along?

No, really, please?

Yeah....I'm with you on that one. That's definitely a case where nuking it from orbit really *is* the only way to be sure. #P

A thought about that array of T-Bolts. Not very efficient against 'mechs or large tanks, but you will blast the crap out of battle armor, and long before they get into range to boot.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #20 on: 17 September 2014, 00:41:12 »
I'm not even sure how best to go about trying to kill that platoon. My usual theory of 'airstrikes until nothing moves' probably means not getting your planes back, you can't bum-rush it, you can't hang back and pick at it... did we bring artillery along?

No, really, please?
If you play FS, you can get a Destrier and two nice heavies for the same BV. Shoot each of the tanks with Destrier's cannons until it's immobilized, so mechs can keep moving, making themselves a hard targets, while using the immobilized bonus to finish off each of the tanks at a range.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #21 on: 17 September 2014, 05:17:35 »
If you play FS, you can get a Destrier and two nice heavies for the same BV. Shoot each of the tanks with Destrier's cannons until it's immobilized, so mechs can keep moving, making themselves a hard targets, while using the immobilized bonus to finish off each of the tanks at a range.

Sounds nice, but Destriers aren't too difficult to immobilize either...
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #22 on: 17 September 2014, 06:03:15 »
But it has more armour than Behemoths, by the time it goes down it should have pulled more than it's worth in BV with it.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #23 on: 17 September 2014, 07:44:14 »
I was surprised that Behemoth II Heavy Tank was revamped, given the original dossier (prior to the Dark Age record sheet book) had the "Support" version as the standard model.  At first i saw Rocket Launcher/10s which i've never been a fan of, but then i noticed the 8 T-bolt 5 launchers, said "Missile Massacre!"  An AMS can cure so many volleys of missiles, if your target has two, only 2 of those hitting missiles are going away.

I think only thing the Behemoth II lacks is armored motive system, though that would take up alot of tonnage to make it work.  Given this is a early Dark Age unit, i think would be unnecessary.  I like how the Behemoth II was unloved / unwanted when Adlis first produced it.   Getting a gift that keeps on giving it always plus in my book. I'm glad the guys i run with use the TacOps advance rule to drop 1 motive crit and 1 standard crit. Least it makes the vehicle less a pillar box on the battlefield.

I find myself think the Dark Age got among the best hard hitting tanks for their era, but that alot to live up to.  How would M1A1 Marksman match up with a Behemoth II, thou?
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #24 on: 17 September 2014, 09:00:55 »
How would M1A1 Marksman match up with a Behemoth II, thou?
The Behemoth II has a clear advantage in long range firepower, with a Gauss and 8 T-bolt 5s vs a Gauss and two MML 9s.  Up close, the Marksman adds in four Medium Lasers and swaps to firing SRMs from the MMLs, so it certainly has the advantage up close.  The Marksman does have almost 40 points more armor, but it WILL take a beating while trying to close at 3/5 speed.  I'd give the advantage to the Behemoth II in most terrain simply due to the massive increase in long-range firepower (55 maximum damage vs 33).  Two turns of fire takes away the armor advantage (which it is likley to get, as the Marksman is still only 3/5), and with the number of hits those T-bolts make I'd expect some motive crits to slow or stop the Marksman before it can get in range.  In really dense terrain or cities, I'd call it close if the Behemoth has some infantry/BA spotters for the Thunderbolts, but otherwise the Marksman just has such a big advantage at close range it's hard to see the Behemoth winning. 

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #25 on: 17 September 2014, 09:10:01 »
I'm inclined to agree. The Behemoth is very much a long-range bruiser, while the Marksman is more of an all-range MBT. As a result, it suffers at long range, but is much moer dangerous up close.

As for who would win in a fight? I'm not sure. I do know that if I were driving the Marksman, I'd be using any cover I could on my way in, and then use smoke rounds when there was no cover. Hardly a foolproof strategy, and there are ways for the Behemoth to negate or at least mitigate this approach, but I think it'd be my best option for closing to my effective range intact.
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #26 on: 17 September 2014, 10:52:15 »
I think the only flaw in the standard version of the Behemoth II is its not meant for sustainable campaigns.  Its weapons solely depend on use ammunition fed.  If someone using the Design Quirks, it would improve chances getting every shot fired t count.
It is a defensive vehicle, but campaigns against an invader may force it to leave its supply lines behind.

The Support version is little better, with its ER Large Laser, but not much.  I still love standard version, while i do think the Support is similar to M1A1 with exception of armor and reduced firepower.
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"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
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mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #27 on: 17 September 2014, 13:06:10 »
I'm not even sure how best to go about trying to kill that platoon. My usual theory of 'airstrikes until nothing moves' probably means not getting your planes back, you can't bum-rush it, you can't hang back and pick at it... did we bring artillery along?

No, really, please?
Lots of Light Gauss Rifles? Lots of LRMs? Mech Mortars? Thunder minefields? Trap them in a city? Stalker IIs (or other units with hardened armor)?
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

Diablo48

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Re: VotW: Behemoth II Heavy Tank
« Reply #28 on: 17 September 2014, 17:10:26 »
I'm not even sure how best to go about trying to kill that platoon. My usual theory of 'airstrikes until nothing moves' probably means not getting your planes back, you can't bum-rush it, you can't hang back and pick at it... did we bring artillery along?

No, really, please?

Honestly, that is fairly typical of any well built assault formation.  It is a giant pile of guns and armor that takes a ton of work to break and will wreck a lot of stuff unless you throw a similar formation of your own at it.  The weakness is the relative lack of mobility so the counters are either to hit it from well out of range with artillery or flank it to cut it off from its supply lines, something that works especially well against a tank like this that depends so heavily on a steady supply of ammo.


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